So... Was Buffy right?

[The Ferg]

In Empty Places Buffy tells the group that she thinks it would be a good idea to full-on attack the vineyard again in order to get something that they know nothing about. The group disagrees, etc, etc..
In Touched, Buffy returns to the Vineyard, wups some ass, and takes the scythe (do I capitolize the word:"scythe"?).

So my question is, should they have invaded the vineyard again? Would it have made for a faster retrieval of the scythe, therefore: leg-up on the competition?

My vote is no. I love Buffy, and I really do find it hard to disagree with her on anything, but I really do on this. I do think they needed to get the scythe (obviously) but there should have been a better way than just "let's all walk in again." Of course, there probably would've been if the whole group would've just listened and bounced ideas around instead of jumping down her throat.

But enough with my ramblings... What do you think?

 

[itssmiletime]

If they walked in again, more people would have died, it was a one-man mission to investigate. I felt the same way in ''Dirty Girls''- if Buffy just went, everything would've been easier.

Also, the scythe is essentially a plot device for Buffy to end on a happy note within a three episode span. Because Willow can't just mutter a few Latin words to turn all the potentials into slayers. If it takes a whole episode for Buffy to kill an ubervamp, it would take 8 seasons worth of episodes to kill a cave of ubervamps. If BTVS were to follow logically, if they went back to the Vineyard, they would have been thrashed again. Get rid of all the Deus Ex Machinas in the fiction universes, the villain wins. She was chasing a theory. And therefore, Buffy was wrong. She won because the plot let her win.

Oh and about capitalizing scythe, oh I don't. If there were a buffyverse weapon that should start with a capital letter, it's a good ol' stake.

 

[The Ferg]

If they walked in again, more people would have died, it was a one-man mission to investigate. I felt the same way in ''Dirty Girls''- if Buffy just went, everything would've been easier.

Also, the scythe is essentially a plot device for Buffy to end on a happy note within a three episode span. Because Willow can't just mutter a few Latin words to turn all the potentials into slayers. If it takes a whole episode for Buffy to kill an ubervamp, it would take 8 seasons worth of episodes to kill a cave of ubervamps. If BTVS were to follow logically, if they went back to the Vineyard, they would have been thrashed again. Get rid of all the Deus Ex Machinas in the fiction universes, the villain wins. She was chasing a theory. And therefore, Buffy was wrong. She won because the plot let her win.

Oh and about capitalizing scythe, oh I don't. If there were a buffyverse weapon that should start with a capital letter, it's a good ol' stake.

So you're saying there's no point in talking about character's actions on the show? Because at the end of the day the writers decide what happens, and that's that?


Boring.

 

[itssmiletime]

So you're saying there's no point in talking about character's actions on the show? Because at the end of the day the writers decide what happens, and that's that?


Boring.

That was rude, and my post was completely misinterpreted and unfairly simplified. By talking about the writing, I was justifying my viewpoint.

I'm essentially saying that Buffy's actions were wrong. My point was that even though Buffy ended up being technically right, there being a scythe and saving the day, she technically, shouldn't be right. At the end of Empty Places, the viewers take sides. The show itself, over the next three episodes, takes its own side. It takes Buffy's side. At the end of Touched, we have Faith and the potentials near a bomb, and Buffy just lifted a glorified weed cutting tool. Buffy was right. Yet from my perspective, as a viewer, it doesn't feel right. The scythe feels too convenient, cheap. The whole scenario feels faked and forced, and I don't buy it. Both missions, from Faith and Buffy, should have ended horribly. I'm not on her side, at all, for a vast majority of season seven, and Empty Places is no exception. She is partially responsible for the events in Dirty Girls, she must deal with the consequences.

 

[white avenger]

The scythe feels too convenient, cheap. The whole scenario feels faked and forced,

No more convenient and faked than having someone show up with a magic amulet that winds up blasting the entire ubervamp army, destroying Sunnydale, and, just coincidentally, works out as a way to get Spike moved from the cast of "Buffy" to "Angel" or Buffy's use of Olaf's Hammer at the end of Season 5, or having the dragon save the day for Angel in "After The Fall," or avoiding the issue of Buffy with the Immortal in Rome by simply saying that it was really some other blond Slayer just pretending to be Buffy. I hate it when Joss pulls crap like that rather then spend the time and effort to work out a better solution (or maybe I should say, escape from the corner that he's painted himself into) but Joss doesn't seem to have any more problem doing that than he does resurrecting people who he previously killed off.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I think she was completely wrong.

She was right that there was something there, and I'm okay with her going in the first time. But she needed to do more planning.

It's like if she'd gone up against Glory with no plan at all, In that instance she had the Dagons Sphere, she had Willow returning Tara and she had Xander with a bulldozer, she actually had a plan of attack, rather then running at Glory yelling "Ahhhhh"

Which is basically what she did in this case, she had no proper plan, no idea what they were looking at, she just had her instinct teller her she was right. Her instinct is enough to go off so I understand going in the first time.

But a second, absolutely not. The way I see it, she knew she was right after the first attack and rather then feel guilty about the people they'd lost, she wanted to go back in right away to prove she was right, like proving she was right would justify it and it was the only thing she could focus on.

People think the gang are terrible for tuning on her, I could never understand this, cuz I would have done the same. There's no way I would agree to go back in, just going off her word, so the Potentials I completely understand. With the core group they had the worst defeat they've ever had (except Buffy's death) with Xanders eye, no proof Buffy was right and a group of inexperienced girls to fight with.

Faiths plan was allot better, at least they researched and had an idea of what they were doing - they were tricked, but at least there was some preparation to it. If they'd applied the same thinking to the vineyard it would have been perfect.

If they'd gone back to the vineyard, Buffy wouldn't have gotten the Scythe and more people would have died. Buffy wasn't in the right head space to lead the gang, and they wouldn't have been in the right head space to fight.

I think she proves she was wrong because she gets it herself, she was being to hot headed and stubborn to win, once Spike calms her down and she stabilises she is basically able to walk in there and walk out with the Scythe. To me, that proves that when she wanted to go back in she was in the completely wrong frame of mind to lead the gang.

 

[sk]

I don't think it would have been a good idea to do another full on attack.

But I also don't think that was Buffy's plan.
I rather think that she hadn't come so far yet. She didn't have a real plan.
All she had figured out that it had to be something there, which was correct.

The exact how and when was yet to be decided when she went to the group.
She says that she is willing to strategies but by then everyone had already stopped listening.

She had the right idea imho but did a lousy work presenting it to the group.

/SK

 

[SlayerPrincess]

She did say she was willing to talk stategies. Even if she was wrong they didnt all have to gang up on her like that and throw her out of her own house. If the scoobies felt some type of way they could've spoke to her in private...come to think of it this isent even the first time they did something like this.

 

[itssmiletime]

She did say she was willing to talk stategies. Even if she was wrong they didnt all have to gang up on her like that and throw her out of her own house. If the scoobies felt some type of way they could've spoke to her in private...come to think of it this isent even the first time they did something like this.

About talking to Buffy in private.... hey, isn't Buffy guilty of that too? In 'Get it Done' she was so cruel to Spike and Willow that she embarrassed them in front of the whole group.

Getting kicked out of the house... people forget, that Buffy had a choice. She could of gotten over her ego, and let Faith have a go at leadership. It was only Dawn who said ''then you can't stay here''.

About strategies.... um, yeah, like Season 7 Buffy would actually listen to someone else. Here are some quotes from her:

"Look, I wish this could be a democracy. I really do. Democracies don't win battles. It's a hard truth, but there has to be a single voice. You need someone to issue orders and be reckless sometimes and not take your feelings into account. You need someone to lead you."

Here is the thing. They gave a full on attack to Glory and the minions in The Gift due to different ideas, collaborations, etc. When Willow admits to spending a bulk of her time trying to fix Tara, Buffy smiles at her and completely understands. Buffy had the whole Empty Places thing coming to her, and she deserved every ounce of it.

 

[Robb Stark]

Getting kicked out of the house... people forget, that Buffy had a choice. She could of gotten over her ego, and let Faith have a go at leadership. It was only Dawn who said ''then you can't stay here''.

Wait...give Faith a shot at leadership? Really? The last real interaction Buffy had with Faith was when she had her body stolen and Faith was rampaging through L.A., trying to murder Angel. Faith had done exactly one good thing up to that point, saving Angel from Angelus. That bought her a place in the house. The rest of her history proved pretty solidly that she was unfit to handle any sort of pressure. I'm amazed Willow, Xander, Giles and Dawn didn't see that.

However, I'm not saying Buffy's plan was perfect. Hell, there wasn't much of a plan there. Sometimes Buffy goes through unbelievably dumb periods, where any tactical through abandons her. How did she defeat The Mayor? How did she defeat The Judge? She blew them both up. Two enemies who were far beyond her physical capabilities, just like Caleb. She knew exactly where Caleb was. Why didn't she blow the vineyard up, or enlist Willow, who by this point in the series is so powerful she can alter the fabric of reality, to bring the wrath of god down upon it? Dumb.

But handing the reigns over to Faith just made me roll my eyes and shake my head. Not only is Faith not entirely "better" by this time (she tries to murder Giles for touching her shoulder in S8), but she leads everyone immediately into a trap. Buffy didn't have everything worked out, no, but the blanket refusal by everyone else but Spike to follow her pissed me off. She had a pretty incredible track record overall. And if the Scoobies are gun shy about fighting, well, then they shouldn't be there at all. They kick Buffy out of her own house and then give command to Faith, who had proven she had no right to be leading anything. And things blow up in their faces.

So yeah, while not perfect, I think Buffy was right.

 

[white avenger]

Well, obviously, from the way that the story line worked out, Buffy was right in the fact that there was something at the vineyard that warranted a second attempt to recover it. Her biggest mistake in planning the second attempt was that there wasn't any. Planning, that is. What she should have done would have been to lock herself in the kitchen with Giles, Willow, Spike, and Faith (Xander being incapacitated at the time) and worked out strategies, logistics, diversions, contingencies, and that sort of thing. Then, with a definite plan worked out and the assured support of her friends, and only then, would have been the time to announce to the Potentials, Andrew, and Wood, just what was about to happen.

Buffy should never have had to go in there alone, but then, once it was known just how powerful their opponent was, she should never have gone ANYWHERE alone. We saw on at least two different occasions where she was left badly beaten and unconscious. She could just as easily been killed either time, and then, game over, First Evil one, Slayer zero. It made for some dramatic scenes, but absolutely terrible strategy. Generals, or any sort of leaders in that sore of situation, are too valuable to risk themselves that way.

 

[itssmiletime]

Wait...give Faith a shot at leadership? Really? The last real interaction Buffy had with Faith was when she had her body stolen and Faith was rampaging through L.A., trying to murder Angel. Faith had done exactly one good thing up to that point, saving Angel from Angelus. That bought her a place in the house. The rest of her history proved pretty solidly that she was unfit to handle any sort of pressure. I'm amazed Willow, Xander, Giles and Dawn didn't see that.

However, I'm not saying Buffy's plan was perfect. Hell, there wasn't much of a plan there. Sometimes Buffy goes through unbelievably dumb periods, where any tactical through abandons her. How did she defeat The Mayor? How did she defeat The Judge? She blew them both up. Two enemies who were far beyond her physical capabilities, just like Caleb. She knew exactly where Caleb was. Why didn't she blow the vineyard up, or enlist Willow, who by this point in the series is so powerful she can alter the fabric of reality, to bring the wrath of god down upon it? Dumb.

But handing the reigns over to Faith just made me roll my eyes and shake my head. Not only is Faith not entirely "better" by this time (she tries to murder Giles for touching her shoulder in S8), but she leads everyone immediately into a trap. Buffy didn't have everything worked out, no, but the blanket refusal by everyone else but Spike to follow her pissed me off. She had a pretty incredible track record overall. And if the Scoobies are gun shy about fighting, well, then they shouldn't be there at all. They kick Buffy out of her own house and then give command to Faith, who had proven she had no right to be leading anything. And things blow up in their faces.

So yeah, while not perfect, I think Buffy was right.

I understand completely what you are saying about Faith, and I can't believe that no one, even suggested, that perhaps have a co-leader strategy, such as Faith and Buffy. And no way are the scoobies gun shy about fighting, they just don't like fighting the way Buffy suggests . Buffy completely approached to the Scoobies and the potentials her plans in Empty Places completely the wrong way. To a potential, or to Xander, Giles or Willow, it was just a theory. Some of the best potentials were killed in Dirty Girls, (I think Kennedy is the best fighter out of them, imo) and Xander was seriously hurt. My problem was with Buffy's approach to the situation.

Do I think Faith would be the best leader? No. But Buffy had the wrong approach. She had alienated alot of people due to her choices and general attitude. It is possible to win a war by ''taking people's feelings in account''. She had gone completely off the rails. She keeps on forgetting that the potentials aren't soldiers, they are refugees. When they think of a plan, they think ''Am I going to live'' not about the ''greater purpose''. It's unethical on so many levels to expect them to just be willing to go into a plan, even if they disagree with it, when there lives are at stake. Yes, they did agree to fight. But they deserve the right to say no, to disagree.

If they went back into the Vineyard, in Empty Places, more potentials would have died. If she said ''I'm going there myself'' then yeah, no problem by me. I really struggle to sympathize with Buffy on this. To destroy Caleb, I would have gone with a similar approach to Glory in The Gift or how Angel killed Marcus Hamilton in Not Fade Away. But rocket launcher could have worked.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

In order to eliminate the Judge, Xander stole a rocket launcher and it got the job done. For the hellmouth, they should have taken a fuel truck, dumped its contents into the Turok Han cave and lit it. Works for bringers, too.

By the time they got to season 7, I think the writers had exhausted just about all the plot possibilities, so we got Buffy as the incompetent general of an army of draftees whose decision process was always wrong and whose execution was always poor. But since this is a drama where buffy had to win, it all worked out in the end. Real life doesn't work that way.

 

[dexeded]

Buffy was right, her method was wrong. She didn't know how to lead a large group of people (Potentials) to whom she had never proved herself before. She is much better at gaining respect by her actions, then leading those that already respect her.

 

[galactica1981]

Buffy was right. Her greatest strength as a Slayer is that she relies on her instincts, and she shrewdly deduced that the reason Caleb was at the vineyard was because there was something important there. When Faith took over, she was easily led into a trap.

 

[Zeppelin92]

Buffy was Right and Wrong. Had she convinced everyone to follow her into the Vineyard more girls would have died. There was a big emphasis on the fact that Buffy had outsmarted Caleb in the fact that she might not have been stronger, but she was faster. The key element to retrieving the scythe was not to battle, but to avoid battle in a sense. Bringing the potentials into the Vineyard would have not only distracted Buffy, but would have been an easy slaughter in my opinion. If Buffy hadn't been kicked out of her house and had to face Caleb alone she may have never even gotten the scythe.