Spoiler! So...What do you think it happens...#35

[Don]

I think it's stupid if Buffy gets pregnant with Angel's baby because there are starting to be too many similarities to the Twilight series for me to just laugh off.

First, Angel's name is Twilight.

Second, at the end of the Twilight series, Bella has a baby with Edward, the vampire.

Now, I realize that just because one vampire story has a vampire/human baby then that doesn't mean that nobody else can, but let's look at this from the other perspective. In issue 33, Buffy condemns Twilight for calling himself that, saying that Buffy's vampire (Angel) was way better than the one in that story (Edward). What that basically amounts to is saying, "Yeah, I'm Joss and I wrote this story first so any rip-offs can just suck it," and that was funny and I laughed.

Now, though, Joss seems to be taking a page out of the Twilight series. Again, I'm not saying HE can't do it because THEY did it, but you can't blatantly mock somebody out for having a similar storyline to your own and then, in the very next issue, do the exact same thing and think it's totally cool.

Also, I'm not a fan of the Twilight series in the least... so you know it's tough calling Joss out on this one.

(I realize that issues 33 and 34 were written by Brad Meltzer and NOT Joss Whedon, but we DO know that Joss plotted out the series, so we CAN blame Joss for plot problems in any issue.)

In short? I'm hoping Spike comes and kills Angel, Dawn, and Kennedy.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

If Spuffy sex starts the apocalypse (and there's no sensible reason to assume it wouldn't, if Bangel sex does - if anything, Spike is higher on the "mystical evolution ladder" than Angel, and both are souled vampires with a history of boinking Buffy), then of course that's forbidden. Bangel sex in S3 was actually less taboo than this.

Well the comics kinda say it's only Buffy and Angel that can do this because they are the other half of each other, Spike wasn't picked to be Twilight because he wasn't the other half of her.

Buffy Evolved and because Angel is the ying to her yang, he gets that too.

 

[InsaneMystic]

I really don't see what would make Spike less "yin-y" than Angel, and there's nothing in the comic's dialogue to answer that question. Quite on the contrary, with Will referring to Spike and Angel as Buffy's truest loves, on one level. (It's really a disservice to Spike, because Bangel never was true love, but I digress... 😀 )

Now, my personal answer would be that Angel is more corruptible because he doesn't measure up to Spike's heroic ethical standards.

*mystical voice booms out of the universe* "Thou wilt bring forth the next evolution by engaging in carnal loving with the Slayer."
Angel: "Hey cool, cookies!" *rushes off for happy genocidal sex*

*mystical voice booms out of the universe* "Thou wilt bring forth the next evolution by engaging in carnal loving with the Slayer."
Spike: "What's the catch?"
"Humanity will die."
"Ah bollocks... cookies would've been sodding nice, but I happen to like this world. Screw evolution. Let's see what's on TV."

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

Bangel wasn't true love?

Ok I can accept that you don't love them, it's your choice, but to say that's not true love. I think that's little too much.

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

edit: never mind..................

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I really don't see what would make Spike less "yin-y" than Angel, and there's nothing in the comic's dialogue to answer that question. Quite on the contrary, with Will referring to Spike and Angel as Buffy's truest loves, on one level. (It's really a disservice to Spike, because Bangel never was true love, but I digress... 😀 )

Now, my personal answer would be that Angel is more corruptible because he doesn't measure up to Spike's heroic ethical standards.

*mystical voice booms out of the universe* "Thou wilt bring forth the next evolution by engaging in carnal loving with the Slayer."
Angel: "Hey cool, cookies!" *rushes off for happy genocidal sex*

*mystical voice booms out of the universe* "Thou wilt bring forth the next evolution by engaging in carnal loving with the Slayer."
Spike: "What's the catch?"
"Humanity will die."
"Ah bollocks... cookies would've been sodding nice, but I happen to like this world. Screw evolution. Let's see what's on TV."

I personally don't understand how someone can see Spike and Buffy as true love and not Buffy and Angel.

But anyway, Willow said they were her truest loves, but the universe says Angel is the other half of her. This Twilight thing happened to Angel because he is the other half of Buffy, doesn't matter if you have a problem seeing it, it's now fact, they are the separate parts of each other.

I don't think it matters about being corruptible, there has been so suggestion so far to say thats the reason Angel is Twilight, we've been told the reason he's twilight is because he is her other half.

And Spike has shown very little heroic standards, he's shown living up to what he thinks Buffy wants standards.

 

[Bangellove]

Sorry but what? Spike got his soul back for only one reason and one reason only. LOVE! He hated himself for what he had done to her in the bathroom and the only way he could deal with himself was to getting back his soul. That´s it. It´s sweet and romantic and i wouldn´t have it any other way.

Spike is always honest and never lies about anything unlike Angel. He always says the truth and doesn´t try to hide what he really is. This is the reason why i believe and love Spuffy. They are the perfect couple.Period!

He would never ever betray her or do what he think is best for both of them. He always asked for her opinion and in season 7 he tried to push her away but she fell for him anyways. The particular moment was when she said "I believe in you Spike". At this point she realised she has feelings for him and after he was gone all what she could think about was to getting him back. Why? Sure he was strong but was he important for the mission? No but he was important to her. She couldn´t be without him. The rescue scene gave it away. When she found him. Her tears and the look said it all. She loved Spike with all her heart!

A little off topic: The sexual tension between SMG and JM were incredible but they really nailed the scene when they had the conversation in the church.

When the person you love acts like she doesn´t cares about you but is always trying to be close to you. You don´t turn your back. You comfort her and you try to be with her even in the darkest hours. You try to be her rock in all this mess and share your strength with her. This is real love. Even when it´s getting difficult you don´t just give up like Angel did.

This is what Spike has done for her. He was just there for her and this is why he deserved Buffys love more then anything.

Now shoot me. 🙂

I will shoot you, Spike got his soul for her right? Now tell how in the hell he deserves to be a champion? What does he knows bout honour or sacrifice: nothing!!
Oh, and guess what after Spike got his soul back for Buffy, she still kissed Angel and told him she didn't see any future for her and spike. He might have loved her but she didn't loved him at least not like she loved Angel and that you have to accept because it's true.
One more thing did you ever notice how much disrespect spike had for Buffy? Think about it, not only the rape but the disrespect, those two things made me realise that Spike was obsessed about her and not in love. Don't get me wrong, I like spike and buffy as friends, he gives her strengh but as lovers they only destroy themselves, especially Buffy.
And one last thing SMG said in many interviews that she hated to do the sex scenes w/ JM that she didn't felt comfortable, everyone knows it.

---------- Post added at 09:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:35 PM ----------

How did this turn into a Spuffy vs. Bangel thread?

The same moment that people came here to glorify spike instead of giving their opinions 'bout issue #35 : (*sorry*

 

[citiegal17]

I am a fan of Spike now but not a Spuffy fan but I still like Spike more than Angel. Simply because he shows more concern towards life in general if you've seen Angel season 5, then in my opinon you can see sharp differences, between Angel and Spike. Angel is all about the ends justify the means, and Spike is about the individual rights to life. If Joss goal of Angel season 5, was to make Angel look like a champion, I hardly saw him as any different then the evil he was fighting against, and as Twilight, he is just a worst version of that. Spike has more moral integrity than Angel has, and thats undeniable at least by my standards of morals.

 

[Buffy4ever2k10]

I will shoot you, Spike got his soul for her right? Now tell how in the hell he deserves to be a champion? What does he knows bout honour or sacrifice: nothing!!
Oh, and guess what after Spike got his soul back for Buffy, she still kissed Angel and told him she didn't see any future for her and spike. He might have loved her but she didn't loved him at least not like she loved Angel and that you have to accept because it's true.
One more thing did you ever notice how much disrespect spike had for Buffy? Think about it, not only the rape but the disrespect, those two things made me realise that Spike was obsessed about her and not in love. Don't get me wrong, I like spike and buffy as friends, he gives her strengh but as lovers they only destroy themselves, especially Buffy.
And one last thing SMG said in many interviews that she hated to do the sex scenes w/ JM that she didn't felt comfortable, everyone knows it.

Sorry if i hit a nerve.

First of all he wasn´t really that evil when he came to sunnydale. He never touched Joyce and from this particular moment i saw him differently and not only as the evil guy. Sure he wasn´t a saint but who can honestly say that about himself? Hell god knows i can´t.

Have you ever asked yourself why Buffy never dusted Spike even when he was soulless? She had many opportunities but didn´t took it. After he got his chip from the initiative he was forced to get along with Buffy and the scoobies. Demons had lost their respect for him and he couldn´t "have fun" anymore. And again Buffy didn´t kill him. Hmmm strange. Then he found out he could still hurt and kill demons so he joined the good fight.

After that he fell in love with Buffy and yes he was obsessed but i can´t say it´s a bad thing. Imo it made him a better person. He cared about others and not only himself. The best example is Dawn. Glory tortured him but he never said a word about her because Buffy and Dawn trusted him. You can´t deny that the kiss after they rescued him wasn´t Buffy herself. He earned her trust because of what he did for Dawn. The most important part was when she told him to take care of Dawn. Sorry but only ask something like that when you really care about a person and you know you can trust this person with your life.

I don´t know what to say about the season 6 sex but i liked it. Spike said it himself love is passionate,violent and consuming. Buffy used him to feel better. Hell why not?

Now to the famous but completly stupid rape attempt and ooc scene. I know it was important to get him on his path but why the hell had it be so dramatic? I believe at some point Spike would have get this soul back even without the incident. But it happend and we had to deal with it. She forgave him anyways so it doesn´t really matter anymore.

You honestly think Spike is not a champion? Sorry but that´s just selfish and arrogant. Why is Angel a champion? His own words once were "I killed more people then the plague". I think both are champions. Angels actions however aren´t champion like these days but we just don´t know enough yet to be certain why he became Twilight. I still give him the benefit of the doubt.

Spike became a champion because of what he did for Buffy and the world. A champion isn´t just a fighter for a good cause and just saving innocents isn´t enough to make you one especially when you are a vampire. You become a true champion when you do all those things for the right reasons like love,loyalty and of course if you sacrifice yourself. Spike did all that. He fought on Buffys side for so long and finally he got the chance to save them all. He didn´t hesitate. He didn´t asked about the consequences. He just did it. This is what makes him a champion.

He didn´t back down after he saw Buffy and Angel kissing eachother. He returned back to the HQ and waited for her. He knew she would came back for him because in this moment her place were on his side and not Angels.

I can accept the fact that they are both champions. Why cant you?

And for the record. Buffy called Spike a champion and hell he is the best champion the world ever had.

Damn and again my emotions overwhelmed me. Sorry for the wall of text and i guarantee it was the last one regarding Spuffy. I said everything about it. That´s it. Back to the discussion about the issue. Please.

btw: I honestly don´t care about the actors that well. I always loved and hated the characters because of their personalities and how they handled their lifes. I like SMG but it was just a role for her but i do love Buffy and the whole Buffy and Angelverse.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Hey guys, we need to get back on topic of this thread What you think could happen in issue 35.

Lets drop the shipper fights and save them for the shippers forum.
(I'm guilty of it to)

But please stay on topic.

 

[LilBufBuf]

I really can't see the logic here. Certainly she trusted Angel for a long time, but being responsible for the deaths of a couple of hundred Slayers, at least an equal number of military personnel, and posing a threat to the lives of every man, woman, and child on the planet would seem to me to be a fairly good excuse to NOT trust him now or anytime in the near future.

As for whether Buffy did or didn't love Spike in Season 6, that might be pretty much a matter of opinion, and you're certainly entitled to yours, but she most certainly DID trust Spike implicitly in Season 6. He earned that trust in Season 5, when he endured torture from Glory without betraying her or Dawn. She trusted him SO implicitly that she specifically charged him, not Giles, Willow, or anyone else with taking care of Dawn in case she didn't survive the final battle with Glory. She trusted him in Season 6 when she told him that she had been pulled out of heaven, not hell, she trusted him to take care of Dawn once more even AFTER "Seeing Red" (and the chip wouldn't be the reason for that, since it would only prevent him from HARMING her, not compel him to protect her, two totally different things).

So Buffy most certainly trusted Spike in Season 6, soul or no soul, even after he tried to rape her. She trusted him as much, sometimes more, as in the heaven/hell issue, as she did any of her other friends.

And the statement, "She trusted him even after he tried to rape her," just seems to me a bit easier to accept than, "She trusts Angel even AFTER she knows that he, not Angelus, is directly responsible for the deaths of hundreds of humans and threatens billions of others." At least it does to me.

I'm pretty sure I already addressed the part where she believes that he didn't kill her Slayers and was trying to help Buffy. According to the comics, after her initial violent reaction to Angel and after she was able to hear him out, she believed him. As Angel mentioned, many more would have died had he not created a diversion. Angel's not like Buffy, he's not going to try to save everyone he can if in the end, it will make things worse. What is there to distrust in his intentions if she believes he's telling her the truth? And even if she does distrust him to some degree, that doesn't mean she doesn't love him or that some otherly force wouldn't be able to use her love for him to inhibit her most logical thoughts. Buffy both loves Angel and trusts Angel in some capacity, if her final judgement is that he's telling her the truth, what reason is there for her to not believe that he was trying to help her?

I never said that Buffy didn't love Spike period. I said that Buffy slept with Spike at a point where she didn't love him. She had yet to love him. Buffy trusting Spike with Dawn meant that she trusted him in some capacity, that doesn't mean that she loved him. Buffy's trust in Spike in season 5 had more to do with what she felt for Dawn, than Spike. She wanted the best protection for Dawn and knew that the only person capable of protecting her would be Spike. Buffy knew that he wouldn't and couldn't hurt any human, least of all Dawn. Buffy also realized that Spike had helped her avert the apocalypse before. She had no other choice to trust him because logically, he was the only person strong enough to protect Dawn at that point if something happened to her. She wasn't the only one who had to trust Spike, the Scoobys had to learn to trust Spike too. Does that mean that they loved him or trusted him implicitly? He was an asset to them and whether they liked it or not, they needed all the help they could get.

Does Buffy's statement "ask me again why I could never love you" mean nothing? Despite the fact that she trusted him, it doesn't mean that at that point she loved him.

 

[Bangellove]

Sorry if i hit a nerve.

First of all he wasn´t really that evil when he came to sunnydale. He never touched Joyce and from this particular moment i saw him differently and not only as the evil guy. Sure he wasn´t a saint but who can honestly say that about himself? Hell god knows i can´t.

Have you ever asked yourself why Buffy never dusted Spike even when he was soulless? She had many opportunities but didn´t took it. After he got his chip from the initiative he was forced to get along with Buffy and the scoobies. Demons had lost their respect for him and he couldn´t "have fun" anymore. And again Buffy didn´t kill him. Hmmm strange. Then he found out he could still hurt and kill demons so he joined the good fight.

After that he fell in love with Buffy and yes he was obsessed but i can´t say it´s a bad thing. Imo it made him a better person. He cared about others and not only himself. The best example is Dawn. Glory tortured him but he never said a word about her because Buffy and Dawn trusted him. You can´t deny that the kiss after they rescued him wasn´t Buffy herself. He earned her trust because of what he did for Dawn. The most important part was when she told him to take care of Dawn. Sorry but only ask something like that when you really care about a person and you know you can trust this person with your life.

I don´t know what to say about the season 6 sex but i liked it. Spike said it himself love is passionate,violent and consuming. Buffy used him to feel better. Hell why not?

Now to the famous but completly stupid rape attempt and ooc scene. I know it was important to get him on his path but why the hell had it be so dramatic? I believe at some point Spike would have get this soul back even without the incident. But it happend and we had to deal with it. She forgave him anyways so it doesn´t really matter anymore.

You honestly think Spike is not a champion? Sorry but that´s just selfish and arrogant. Why is Angel a champion? His own words once were "I killed more people then the plague". I think both are champions. Angels actions however aren´t champion like these days but we just don´t know enough yet to be certain why he became Twilight. I still give him the benefit of the doubt.

Spike became a champion because of what he did for Buffy and the world. A champion isn´t just a fighter for a good cause and just saving innocents isn´t enough to make you one especially when you are a vampire. You become a true champion when you do all those things for the right reasons like love,loyalty and of course if you sacrifice yourself. Spike did all that. He fought on Buffys side for so long and finally he got the chance to save them all. He didn´t hesitate. He didn´t asked about the consequences. He just did it. This is what makes him a champion.

He didn´t back down after he saw Buffy and Angel kissing eachother. He returned back to the HQ and waited for her. He knew she would came back for him because in this moment her place were on his side and not Angels.

I can accept the fact that they are both champions. Why cant you?

And for the record. Buffy called Spike a champion and hell he is the best champion the world ever had.

Damn and again my emotions overwhelmed me. Sorry for the wall of text and i guarantee it was the last one regarding Spuffy. I said everything about it. That´s it. Back to the discussion about the issue. Please.

btw: I honestly don´t care about the actors that well. I always loved and hated the characters because of their personalities and how they handled their lifes. I like SMG but it was just a role for her but i do love Buffy and the whole Buffy and Angelverse.

I can't just accept it for the very simple fact that he doesn't gives a damn about the world, and you're saying that spike is a champion? Please, he didn't had the decency to be sorry for what he's done in 100 years. Angel suffered a lot more w/ his soul than spike did battling w/ his inner demon, w/ everyones betrayal, w/ every single regrets he had and by watching his dream of being a father and a normal man destroyed. Spike never wanted to be human, or fight to his redemption until he heard about the damn prophecy that might had involved Angel.
So yeah, damn right you hit a nerve! And why the hell being so dramatic over an attempt of rape?! I guess the word says it all...Rape

---------- Post added at 12:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:38 AM ----------

Hey guys, we need to get back on topic of this thread What you think could happen in issue 35.

Lets drop the shipper fights and save them for the shippers forum.
(I'm guilty of it to)

But please stay on topic.

Ok, so what do you guys think it's gonna happen from here, w/ the scoobies, Buffy and Angel?

 

[LyteHouse]

Issue #35: Angel/Buffy/Spike threesome!

C'mon, you know you want it. 😉

Joss has been teasing us with it since Issue #3.

And moar space sex! To infinity and beyond!

 

[Bangellove]

Will the scoobies forgive her? Or will they turn their backs to her?
I'm guessing for the covers, that she'll have a hard time trying to guess in whose side she is

 

[Wishing Oceans]

I can't just accept it for the very simple fact that he doesn't gives a damn about the world, and you're saying that spike is a champion? Please, he didn't had the decency to be sorry for what he's done in 100 years. Angel suffered a lot more w/ his soul than spike did battling w/ his inner demon, w/ everyones betrayal, w/ every single regrets he had and by watching his dream of being a father and a normal man destroyed. Spike never wanted to be human, or fight to his redemption until he heard about the damn prophecy that might had involved Angel.
So yeah, damn right you hit a nerve! And why the hell being so dramatic over an attempt of rape?! I guess the word says it all...Rape

---------- Post added at 12:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:38 AM ----------



Ok, so what do you guys think it's gonna happen from here, w/ the scoobies, Buffy and Angel?

Ohh boyy. *Tries to keep from jumping into argument* To debate, or not to debate... Gah, bad WO, no debating for you! :biggrin3:

Just to say my piece: If you saw Ats S5, then it's said that Spike and Angel are both champions. It's SAID. Many times. Regardless of what you think, it's a canonical fact, sorry. 🙂 (Yay! I didn't get into it! 😀 )

As for Spuffy and Bangel... Both were Buffy's "truest" loves. IMO, none of them were her "true" love. Just her "truest" so far. I'm sure that she's not going to find "the one". It's just not Buffy to settle down. Also, I'm sorry, but it's majorly cheesy, imo. :biggrin3:

OK, not getting into it, not getting into, moving on....

Alright, I think that next Buffy's going to quickly get her tush back home, trying to pretend like nothing happened (After an awkward talk with Angel, of course). As soon as she gets there, she's bombarded with a mob of disgruntled and confused friends. She can't explain it, and they send her away for a while, thinking that she's lost site of the big picture. Kind of like Touched, on her way back, she'll run into a vamp. Not recognizing the person, they'll get in a fight. Right when one is about to win, they realize who the other is- Spike and Buffy. They talk, reminisce, and Spike notes how much she's changed. She regains the big picture, they face off against Twilight, Spike meets up with Illyria...

And that's all I've got speculation-wise so far. 😀

 

[Bangellove]

So she won't get to know how Giles wanted to kill her and the history of the slayer? That's weird...I think that she'll have to know eventually 'bout the whole conversation btw the scoobies...

 

[2cherylcxko313]

she's used to giles betraying her.
this is absolutely no big surprise that he wants to kill her.
the man is severely corrupt and a wee bit mental.

 

[Wishing Oceans]

she's used to giles betraying her.
this is absolutely no big surprise that he wants to kill her.
the man is severely corrupt and a wee bit mental.

I definitely disagree. 🙂

While it wasn't the best choice for Giles to go behind their backs, he was doing it for the Greater Good. Because he believed it to be right, and he's done it before. Ben/Dawn, anyone? For him, it's always been about the bigger picture. Buffy is causing the end of the world. Maybe, if she seemingly can't resist temptation, then killing Buffy is right.

(I haven't read it though, only read a summary, so it's a bit fuzzy for me right now...)

 

[citiegal17]

I don't think Giles really wants to kill her, I think he was talking about Angel, and only her if absolutley neccessary. I think Giles is at best misinformed about the prophetcy and not the Betrayer, he'd even be an expected betrayer, not unexpected. I expect there to be real fall out over her actions with Angel, because there is no justification for his actions as Twilight or in the past. I think Giles past misdeeds are way more understandable than Angel's, and he at least admits to them, such as in the Gift he specfically states his actions as non- heroic. I am looking forward to the fall out because it seems deserved if Buffy is not under any influence, which may or may not be the case. This whole prophetcy thing makes me disbelieve this whole gods Angel/Buffy nosense even more. I think there is a difference between having god like powers and actually being one. The person who I think really qualifies as being close to a god is Willow. I think someone else is behind Angel/Buffy's powers, and its not the universe. I actually would prefer a normal Buffy and not god Buffy.

 

[white avenger]

I can't just accept it for the very simple fact that he doesn't gives a damn about the world, and you're saying that spike is a champion?

Correct me here if my memory is somewhat foggy, it happens as one grows older, but what kind of person was required to wear the amulet in "Chosen?" Wasn't it "supposed to be worn by a Champion?" And didn't Buffy choose the champion who she thought was most worthy to wear the amulet? Now, this is the part where my memory tends to fog up, but I seem to recall that champion being slender, medium height, blond, and wearing a long black leather trench coat. Wasn't that champion...Spike?

And then there was that time when there were these two vampires, one was going to destroy the world, and the other sided with the Slayer to stop him doing it. Granted, it was just to keep his "happy meals on legs," but still, he cared enough about the world to help save it. Just by coincidence, that guy was slender, medium height, blond, and wore a black leather trench coat, too. Wasn't that vampire who gave a damn about the world...Spike?