Spoiler! So...What do you think it happens...#35

[Buffy4ever2k10]

Besides - and please correct me if I mess something up there, I'm fuzzy about the Angel comics - isn't Angel supposed to get the Shanshu for fighting on behalf of the Dark Hats in the Apocalypse?

The vision showed a battlefield and Angel soaked in blood but on which side he fought is not mentioned. Maybe he fought for the good or the evil side but i can´t tell exactly and it´s possible it was a false vision. The senior partners need the souled Angel to fight on their side but the question is why him and not Angelus?

Angel got more and more corrupted throughout season 5 and working for W&H wasn´t his best idea either. He did it for Connor but was it the right decision and his alone to make? I always thought he should have asked his crew for their opinion but it´s canon so i have to deal with it.

The black thorn forced him to sign his prohecy away and that´s it. No human life ever. Sure they reversed time but only to the very important moment in the alley. Wesley,Lindsey and the shanshu prophecy were still gone. So why people are still believing in the shanshu prophecy? Did i missed something?

Crazy theory the 856th.
The shanshu prohecy predicted that he will live and die but on which terms is really fuzzy. Twilight is invincible but if he became a human again. He would be vulnerable and could be killed. Right?

The shanshu is not a reward for Angel it´s his punishment for becoming Twilight in the first place.

What do you think?

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

The vision showed a battlefield and Angel soaked in blood but on which side he fought is not mentioned. Maybe he fought for the good or the evil side but i can´t tell exactly and it´s possible it was a false vision.

Well when Illyria went back to her original form didn't she transport Angel to that point in time? I think that was supposed to be confirmation.

The black thorn forced him to sign his prohecy away and that´s it. No human life ever. Sure they reversed time but only to the very important moment in the alley. Wesley,Lindsey and the shanshu prophecy were still gone. So why people are still believing in the shanshu prophecy? Did i missed something?

Wesley said the document was never filed so the prophecy is still Angel's.

 

[citiegal17]

Yes. Ghost-Wesley (who he didn't murder so your comment confused me) gave him a vision of it. I can't remember which issue exactly.


Well if what we're seeing is him carrying out the prophecy then he wouldn't be made human yet, would he?

Even if Angel didn't harm him in any way physhical himself, Angel's actions are indirectly responsible for what to happened to Wesley. Nope he didn't kill him physhical but all of Angel's actions indirectly almost nearly broke Wesley in the end, Wesley suffered a lot because of Angel.

 

[Buffy4ever2k10]

Well when Illyria went back to her original form didn't she transported Angel to that point in time? I think that was supposed to be confirmation.

I´m not sure either. I read season 8 and AtF at the same time.

Yes it could be a confirmation but it was a possible future and not the only one. That´s the whole point of time travelling into the future. You can´t really change the future you saw by changing your past only because their are infinite possibilities how a future can turn out. You can´t experience the same future again. It´s impossible because of yours and any other persons unforseen action in the past.

All we saw was a possible future and not the only one because there are infinite futures out there. 🙂

I hope you get my point.

Wesley said the document was never filed so the prophecy is still Angel's.

He worked for W&H at this point. We don´t know if he was Angel telling the truth and it´s a really lame excuse.

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

Okay, I see your point about the time traveling.

He worked for W&H at this point. We don´t know if he was Angel telling the truth and it´s a really lame excuse.

Well if the prophecy wasn't Angel's anymore it really made no sense for them to go to the lengths that they did to keep him alive and in the picture. They could have focused things on Spike. They hated wasting resources.

 

[Buffy4ever2k10]

Well if the prophecy isn't Angel's anymore it really makes no sense for them to go to the lengths that they did to keep him alive. They hated wasting resources. I know it's a lame excuse, I won't argue with you there.

After i read AtF i was under the impression it was all about the shanshu prophecy. Then came Aftermath and i was surprised that the prophecy isn´t really mentioned yet. This is why i like this Angel the most. He cares more about the innocent people and not the damn prophecy. Of course he got some more allies and L.A. knows what´s really going on in the world. I always wondered why W&H would let the people of L.A. remember their time in hell. Wiping out their memories couldn´t be that difficult.

The funny part is in the angelverse people know that demons and vampires are mostly evil but in the buffyverse they accept them right away and they think of them as equal. I didn´t liked the Harmony story and the reactions in L.A. are way more reasonable and of course believable.

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

After i read AtF i was under the impression it was all about the shanshu prophecy. Then came Aftermath and i was surprised that the prophecy isn´t really mentioned yet. This is why i like this Angel the most. He cares more about the innocent people and not the damn prohecy.

Things change. In season 2 of Ats W&H was trying to drive him insane and evil. And while he didn't go completely off the deep end in the long run he showed that he was not completely beyond their influence. And they didn't let up. Hell-A was supposed to be his personal hell. Whose to say he didn't give in to them? I might be 'reaching'.

I'm feeling very conflicted on the character of Angel as of the last issue. 🙁 I'm fully expecting he'll be tarnished completely but I'm hoping to be surprised.

Of course he got some more allies and L.A. knows what´s really going on in the world. I always wondered why W&H would let the people of L.A. remember their time in hell. Wiping out their memories couldn´t be that difficult.

Story convenience?

The funny part is in the angelverse people know that demons and vampires are mostly evil but in the buffyverse they accept them right away and they think of them as equal.

I know, it's strange.

I didn´t liked the Harmony story and the reactions in L.A. are way more reasonable and of course believable.

The Harmony story annoyed me...I especially hated the vampy cat. 😡

 

[InsaneMystic]

If he's doing all this just so he can finally die, I can hardly say I blame him. I mean he could always have offed himself (omg, morbid I know) but Wolfram and Hart would just keep reversing time or pulling other Angels out of the timeline... But we don't know his motivations yet and it could be something completely different.

Suicide by cop! Wow, I actually hadn't considered that one yet... and morbid as it is, it would seem to be by far the most noble motivation for all of his behavior that I can think of. I agree that a wish to finally have his misery end once and for all would be the motivation I'd blame him for the least.

Still, it's a bit much innocent blood to be spilled to get the chance to finally die for me to be fully ok with it - but maybe he's desperate enough over the fact that both TPTB (Amends) and W&H (ATF) seem hellbent to prevent him from suicide, so going on a killing spree to be put down by the White Hats would seem like the lesser of two evils, compared to being forced to live on with no way out, hanging on the strings of two mysterious forces.

Dang it, Shanshu. You made me feel sympathy for the guy again! (sw)

 

[Buffy4ever2k10]

Things change. In season 2 of Ats W&H was trying to drive him insane and evil. And while he didn't go completely off the deep end in the long run he showed that he was not completely beyond their influence. And they didn't let up. Hell-A was supposed to be his personal hell. Whose to say he didn't give in to them? I might be 'reaching'.

I'm feeling very conflicted on the character of Angel as of the last issue. I'm fully expecting he'll be tarnished completely but I'm hoping to be surprised.

You don´t have nothing to worry about. I assure you Joss will find a way to whitewash Angel again but the really question is? Is this what you really want? He killed lots of innocents and while he is in the land of WTF! people still dieing. Buffy is in a way responsible for these events too and it´s more then convenient that she or Angel are under a influence of some greater pwoer and not responsible for their actions.

I´m maybe alone in this but i don´t want it to be that simple. I want to know why Buffy acted like she were 16 again and not the grown up woman i love and adore. I´m like Spike in that way. I always loved her no matter what and this will never change but i want a real good explanation why she acted like this and why she stopped fighting it.

If they were under a influence of an outside force i would consider it rape nothing else. They weren´t clearly themselfs when the whole sexathon started and it looks like the thrall,spell or whatever was lifted after they landed on Twilight.

A little off topic: I´m the only one who is pissed off about the planet Twilight. I mean wtf is this shit?

I can live with the whole sexathon and that Buffy likes analsex but i want it to be real not under some influence or magical bogus. If it´s really destiny i´m gonna throw up. I don´t believe in such things as destiny or love at first sight and neither should Buffy and Angel.Don´t take me wrong i´m still a Spuffer but i can´t see a future for them so it´s either Angel or someone else(i still prefer Xander over all).

I try not to get to emotional involved in the Twilight story because their personal story ended right after the shows for me.

I just read the comics and speculate for fun but situations like this(Buffy and Angel as gods....) make it pretty difficult for me.

I don´t know were this is heading but i want some answers asap. Joss wouldn´t destroy Buffy and Angel like this but at this moment it looks like it and i´m sick of it.

I´m looking forward to see Buffy fighting side by side with Spike and not in the twilightzone and talking to a lunatic named Angel.

Seriously when did Angel became such a douchebag?

I expect a really long monologue in the next issue about their love and if she likes this place and yaddayadda. I´ve got some questions for you too Angel. Why you chose to became such a lunatic and why you think wiping out mankind is not a bad idea?

I swear if Buffy or Spike acting only for a second ooc i´m done.

 

[SpaceLord]

Well first post on this board so here goes.

I like the Angel vs. Spike discussion and I am a Spike fan so it's fun to read.

As for the next issue I think it will be more crap piled upon the crap that is the season 8 comic. I was really looking forward to the season 8 comics when they were announced to be the brainchild of JW but have slowly come to realise that it is such utter crap that I can't even bother to care one bit but it still hurts to see them tear down something that I have fond memories of.

As has been discussed in this thread already on the show JW had the characters act out of character just to promote a plot and I guess I kinda let it slide but after spending the last few years reading some very good fanfic (and some not so good) where they keep characters in character and don't have to bring them out just to further their plot my tolerance for that has decreased to pretty much a zero. I mean if armatures can do it I would pretty much expect paid professionals to do it too.

Then there is the whole yin yang spouting off in the latest issue, have the writers any clue about what that actually means? I mean it's not a hard concept to understand and I would expect brainiac Willow to know what it means to that means that the writers are obviously morons. Because for the life of me I can't see how two people like Buffy and Angel could be considered opposites and to make sure I don't sound like a spuffy-shipper I can't really see current souled up Spike as that either. The whole concept behind yin and yang are opposites and when I look at Angel and Buffy I just don't see it, that is why it feels like the writers have this box with different types of shaped holes that different pieces can go into but they just take the piece that they like and uses a sledgehammer to get it to fit the hole they want.

I have a suspicion that JW picked up these writers at "soap opera writers rejects r us" to be honest.

I'm not too thrilled about the drawing style either, I can hardly see any difference between any of the girls and they are all drawn like they are 12 so the sex issue kinda made me feel like it's a comic done for kiddei fiddlers. Disturbing to say the least.

So my hopes for the next issue is that the world blows up and the comics can die and be buried and we will never speak of it again :tongue3:

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

Dang it, Shanshu. You made me feel sympathy for the guy again! (sw)

Mwahahaha. 😀

You don´t have nothing to worry about. I assure you Joss will find a way to whitewash Angel again but the really question is? Is this what you really want?

Good point.

I´m maybe alone in this but i don´t want it to be that simple.

Yeah, it would be simple...and overdone. Angel being under someone else's influence has been done many a times, even in one shot episodes ("Why We Fight", for example) to season 2 to BtVS "Amends" and all that. His soul is because of other people's influence.

A little off topic: I´m the only one who is pissed off about the planet Twilight. I mean wtf is this shit?

I don't know if I'm pissed. I think 'befuddled' is what I am. =\

 

[white avenger]

You didn't saw to whom was my reply to now did you? White avenger said he enjoyed to watch becoming part 2 cause angel died in it

Actually, White Avenger said that it was his favorite Bangel scene, not that he enjoyed it. Sarah is always at her best with tragic scenes, and she and David played that one perfectly. And Buffy DID NOT "kill" Angel in that scene, she just shoved a steel sword into his chest and then used him to close a portal and save the world.

Whadda you think I am, some kind of sadist, enjoying death scenes? Shame on you!

 

[citiegal17]

Suicide by cop! Wow, I actually hadn't considered that one yet... and morbid as it is, it would seem to be by far the most noble motivation for all of his behavior that I can think of. I agree that a wish to finally have his misery end once and for all would be the motivation I'd blame him for the least.

Still, it's a bit much innocent blood to be spilled to get the chance to finally die for me to be fully ok with it - but maybe he's desperate enough over the fact that both TPTB (Amends) and W&H (ATF) seem hellbent to prevent him from suicide, so going on a killing spree to be put down by the White Hats would seem like the lesser of two evils, compared to being forced to live on with no way out, hanging on the strings of two mysterious forces.

Dang it, Shanshu. You made me feel sympathy for the guy again! (sw)

That would be an understandable motive but I refuse to feel sorry for the guy anymore since he has this thing called "free will" because of his soul. I also think that might be the only one that could really work in this case either,

 

[Bangellove]

Actually, White Avenger said that it was his favorite Bangel scene, not that he enjoyed it. Sarah is always at her best with tragic scenes, and she and David played that one perfectly. And Buffy DID NOT "kill" Angel in that scene, she just shoved a steel sword into his chest and then used him to close a portal and save the world.

Whadda you think I am, some kind of sadist, enjoying death scenes? Shame on you!

Shame on you to make me think you do...:smile3:

 

[Krj2501]

While as a Bangel - I've imagined Buffy having Angel's child.

Still in pointing out the similarities to Season with the Twilight saga - If Buffy turns out to be pregnant from this - I'm going to be a bit disappointed in Joss Whedon. The reason being - because then it will seem like he's ripping off from Stephenie Meyer's Twilight saga.

 

[LilBufBuf]

While as a Bangel - I've imagined Buffy having Angel's child.

Still in pointing out the similarities to Season with the Twilight saga - If Buffy turns out to be pregnant from this - I'm going to be a bit disappointed in Joss Whedon. The reason being - because then it will seem like he's ripping off from Stephenie Meyer's Twilight saga.

Nothing Stephanie Meyer has written about has ever been unique, clever or unexplored in vampire lore. And as far as Smeyer's books are concerned, those creatures that pass for vampires are laughable at best. Supernatural pregnancies have been done before, in the Angelverse especially. This is nothing new for Joss.

Then there is the whole yin yang spouting off in the latest issue, have the writers any clue about what that actually means? I mean it's not a hard concept to understand and I would expect brainiac Willow to know what it means to that means that the writers are obviously morons. Because for the life of me I can't see how two people like Buffy and Angel could be considered opposites and to make sure I don't sound like a spuffy-shipper I can't really see current souled up Spike as that either. The whole concept behind yin and yang are opposites and when I look at Angel and Buffy I just don't see it, that is why it feels like the writers have this box with different types of shaped holes that different pieces can go into but they just take the piece that they like and uses a sledgehammer to get it to fit the hole they want.

It's been a long time since my Chinese Philosophy class...but, Yin and Yang aren't exactly opposites, they're equals. They might be referred to as opposites (the Eastern interpretation of opposite is conceptually different), but they're more like reflections of each other/compliments to each other. I think Willow used the term correctly. The only slightly confusing part is that Yang is male (more aggressive) and Yin is female (less aggressive). Though Yang actually fits Buffy to a T, since Yang represents the sun, light, heaven, dominance and other things associated with that character. Yin sort of fits Angel because Yin represents the moon, cold, darkness...but Yin is feminine and submissive. I can't remember if the concept is rigid in terms of gender...for example if Yang can be associated with women and Yin can be associated with men. It's a subversion of the typical gender role, because as we've seen...both of these characters are dominant and aggressive.

I think Willow pretty much meant that he's the dark (Yin) to her light (Yang).

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Do you really think that buffy's pregnant?
God, I hope not. That'd be pretty lame.

Do you really think Angel's the evil one?
Yep. Obviously we don't know the "whole story" yet, but I wouldn't put it past Angel to willingly allow himself to be corrupted, become Twilight, and give into his "destiny." The road to Hell is paved with good intentions, right?

What if all those theories are wrong?
Well, we'll just have to see. Joss will surprise us yet, I know it.

Buffy pregnant?!
Angel evil?!

And what if Angel is in fact trying to help Buffy from the new evil? Does he knows what's going on on earth? I think he and Giles know way much more bout this whole event...
Yes, I think Angel knows what is going on on Earth. Buffy doesn't, though. Not yet.

 

[InsaneMystic]

Yes, I think Angel knows what is going on on Earth. Buffy doesn't, though. Not yet.

Very much agreed to that... and her reaction to when she finds out will make or break her in terms of rolemodelness. (Naturally I hope she kicks Angels ass and have the space cookies be the last ones he's ever got to eat from her.)

 

[SpaceLord]

It's been a long time since my Chinese Philosophy class...but, Yin and Yang aren't exactly opposites, they're equals. They might be referred to as opposites (the Eastern interpretation of opposite is conceptually different), but they're more like reflections of each other/compliments to each other. I think Willow used the term correctly. The only slightly confusing part is that Yang is male (more aggressive) and Yin is female (less aggressive). Though Yang actually fits Buffy to a T, since Yang represents the sun, light, heaven, dominance and other things associated with that character. Yin sort of fits Angel because Yin represents the moon, cold, darkness...but Yin is feminine and submissive. I can't remember if the concept is rigid in terms of gender...for example if Yang can be associated with women and Yin can be associated with men. It's a subversion of the typical gender role, because as we've seen...both of these characters are dominant and aggressive.

I think Willow pretty much meant that he's the dark (Yin) to her light (Yang).

Well according to Wiki they are opposites, complementary opposites but still opposites (I know wiki isn't the most reliable source):

Yin yang are complementary opposites within a greater whole. Everything has both yin and yang aspects, although yin or yang elements may manifest more strongly in different objects or at different times. Yin yang constantly interacts, never existing in absolute stasis. The concept of yin and yang is often symbolized by various forms of the Taijitu symbol, for which it is probably best known in western cultures.

There is a perception (especially in the West) that yin and yang correspond to good and evil. However, Taoist philosophy generally discounts good/bad distinctions as superficial labels, preferring to focus on the idea of balance. The idea that yin and yang has a moral dimension originated in the Confucian school (most notably Dong Zhongshu) around the second century BCE[2].

Now then please explain to me how you can see two people who are bot compulsive control freaks with no sense of humour being ying and yang I will never understand and it just goes to my opinion of JW and his writers trying to fit the characters into the story and spouting off trite shite about destiny. Yin and yang are the polar opposites according to the wiki not good and evil necessarily but still opposites and if it's not the good Buffy completed by the evil Angel then it must be their personalities and I'm sorry but I just don't see them as opposites but rather two people who are very much alike. If it's something inside them that they are not aware of that is yin and yang well that would make me puke even more on the story.

I still say that they are not each other complements and I can't for the life of me see how anybody could see them as that, maybe it's just me and I'm the blind one but the whole season is just going from bland to bleh! to oh my god what a piece of shit.

I'm not trying to shoot down the Bangel here because hey that's ok in my book, don't care for it much but nothing that would be a deal breaker for me but this whole destiny crap for which they seem to be going with this is driving me insane. It limits the growth of all the other characters because it means that they are always the most important ones and frankly I think that there are a lot more characters that should be allowed to grow that has much more potential than both Buffy and Angel. I know I'm getting real tired of how they treat Spike in the IDW comics and now they have pushed Faith to the side in the Buffy comics with no where to go not to mention Dawn and how boring her character has become.

End of rant 🙂

 

[crabby patty]

Sorry but what? Spike got his soul back for only one reason and one reason only. LOVE! He hated himself for what he had done to her in the bathroom and the only way he could deal with himself was to getting back his soul. That´s it. It´s sweet and romantic and i wouldn´t have it any other way.

They way I interpreted the end of season 6 - spike didn't go looking for his soul intentionally at all! He was pissed that he had become such a slave to love for Buffy and what it had turned him in too. He felt humilated and ashamed by his actions in the bathroom.

When he went through the trials he wanted to become what he was before - a big bad vamp and the demon guy thing said ok and returned his soul instead!