Spoiler! So...What do you think it happens...#35

[cordangel]

See? This is the point, the hatred that Spuffyer feel against Angel. A lot of them hope Angel will be executed killed as soon as possible. I dont remember Angel fans or Bangelers feel the same way for Spike

 

[InsaneMystic]

See? This is the point, the hatred that Spuffyer feel against Angel. A lot of them hope Angel will be executed killed as soon as possible. I dont remember Angel fans or Bangelers feel the same way for Spike

You've obviously not been listening to quite a number of Bangels' opinions about "Seeing Red".

---------- Post added at 08:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:19 PM ----------

They way I interpreted the end of season 6 - spike didn't go looking for his soul intentionally at all! He was pissed that he had become such a slave to love for Buffy and what it had turned him in too. He felt humilated and ashamed by his actions in the bathroom.

When he went through the trials he wanted to become what he was before - a big bad vamp and the demon guy thing said ok and returned his soul instead!

You've swallowed the red herring then (don't worry, pretty much all of of us did at first 😉) that they threw us there. It's been firmly established by everyone involved in the production that Spike went to Africa for no other reason than explicitly to get his soul, but that the writers made us think otherwise by writing his lines ambiguously.

 

[Buffy4ever2k10]

See? This is the point, the hatred that Spuffyer feel against Angel. A lot of them hope Angel will be executed killed as soon as possible. I dont remember Angel fans or Bangelers feel the same way for Spike

Seeing red. Enough said.

It´s difficult for me because i read the Angel comics too and he is after Spike and Wesley my favourite character in the angelverse but in the buffyverse he is a total lunatic and a selfish jerk. And you wonder why i dislike him?

Okay here are some facts about Twilight/Angel and why i dislike him now.

He is responsible for the death of 206 slayers and started a war. They retreated but he hunted them down like animals and showed no mercy to them. Lots of soldiers and slayers got killed during the battle. Don´t know if the vampy cats(ridicilous) were his idea but they could have easily killed millions of innocent people.

On top of that. He is now responsible for the apocalypse and hundreds of thousand innocent people are dieing because of him.

Hooray for him. Maybe we should bake him a cake.

Give me a break.

 

[cordangel]

Ive read a lot of stuff all these years and always I've been struck for such an amount of personal hatred... not dislike or disappointment, but pure hatred. And for Angel's attitude in s8 I think we actually know nothing about it.

 

[LadyLavinia]

He is responsible for the death of 206 slayers and started a war. They retreated but he hunted them down like animals and showed no mercy to them. Lots of soldiers and slayers got killed during the battle. Don´t know if the vampy cats(ridicilous) were his idea but they could have easily killed millions of innocent people.

On top of that. He is now responsible for the apocalypse and hundreds of thousand innocent people are dieing because of him.

Hooray for him. Maybe we should bake him a cake.

Give me a break.

My opinion of Buffy has sunk just as low. Despite all that Angel has done, she still turns around and has sex with him, like some mindless teenager. Stupid bitch.

You've obviously not been listening to quite a number of Bangels' opinions about "Seeing Red".

I guess these same Bangels managed to completely ignore Buffy's attempt to sexually assault Spike in "Gone".

 

[white avenger]

Ive read a lot of stuff all these years and always I've been struck for such an amount of personal hatred... not dislike or disappointment, but pure hatred. And for Angel's attitude in s8 I think we actually know nothing about it.

We know that he has killed hundreds of Slayers, is responsible for hundreds more deaths of his own troops and the non-Slayers who fought on Buffy's side, and is in the process of creating, not his first, but his SECOND apocalypse (Oops, I forgot, it was his evil twin brother who tried to destroy the world in Season 2, so I guess that one doesn't count. Oh, wait, he single handedly started the battle that sent LA and all of its inhabitants to hell. So that brings the count back up to two for Angel) And we also know that, if things keep going in their present direction, he's going to be instrumental in threatening the lives of BILLIONS of humans. We know that much. The rest is just speculation.

 

[LilBufBuf]

My opinion of Buffy has sunk just as low. Despite all that Angel has done, she still turns around and has sex with him, like some mindless teenager. Stupid bitch.

Using gender-based insults to express your dislike for what's doing on, doesn't make you appear any more mature or level-headed than the character.

I guess these same Bangels managed to completely ignore Buffy's attempt to sexually assault Spike in "Gone".

You cannot possibly be seriously comparing Buffy and Spike's interaction in "Gone" to what happened in "Seeing Red." The thought of that just angers me beyond belief. Not only are you downplaying what Spike did to Buffy in "Seeing Red", you're victim-blaming and you're completely ignoring the issue of consent in sexual play.

 

[Wishing Oceans]

See? This is the point, the hatred that Spuffyer feel against Angel. A lot of them hope Angel will be executed killed as soon as possible. I dont remember Angel fans or Bangelers feel the same way for Spike

Now that's a rude generalization. I am a "spuffyer", and I just happen to love Angel and dislike Spike. Amazing.

And, actually, MANY spuffies love Angel, just not when he's with Buffy. If they want him dead, it's because "Angel" has been turned into a psychotic killer this season. Not exactly the type of guy you would want to have over for tea and crackers.

As for Bangelers? Another generalization. Many bangelers detest Spike. Some love him, but only in his early seasons. Some love him all the way through, but dislike his "Buffy Thing." It's very different from person to person, whether you're a bangeler, a spuffy, a fuffy, or a neutral.

If you stick around the Boards longer, then you'll come to realize that, honey.

My opinion of Buffy has sunk just as low. Despite all that Angel has done, she still turns around and has sex with him, like some mindless teenager. Stupid bitch.

I'm also quite disappointed with Buffy, and hoping that something is making her act this way, something out of her control. But I believe that calling her "Stupid b****" is quite out of line of you, for many reasons. P.m. me if you'd like to discuss it.

I guess these same Bangels managed to completely ignore Buffy's attempt to sexually assault Spike in "Gone".

I agree, Buffy was DEFINITELY the one in control (and the more aggressive one) when it comes to Spuffy S6... I could go on about it for hours. :biggrin3:

You cannot possibly be seriously comparing Buffy and Spike's interaction in "Gone" to what happened in "Seeing Red." The thought of that just angers me beyond belief. Not only are you downplaying what Spike did to Buffy in "Seeing Red", you're victim-blaming and you're completely ignoring the issue of consent in sexual play.

Either you're misunderstanding what the OP said, or I am. 😀 I obviously don't hold them to the same regard- Spike was willing in Gone, Buffy certainly wasn't willing in SR. But the point is that their relationship was one of abuse. They both abused each other, and their relationship had no actual boundaries, or, at least, Spike didn't know that they had boundaries. It was take take take for them, for BOTH of them. "Asking for permission" or even consent in general was never a part of it in S6. Yes, Spike made mistakes. But so did Buffy. (Although, please- Let's try and keep comments about the AR out of this thread. There are other places to discuss that, civilly. Thank you.)

 

[LilBufBuf]

Now then please explain to me how you can see two people who are bot compulsive control freaks with no sense of humour being ying and yang I will never understand and it just goes to my opinion of JW and his writers trying to fit the characters into the story and spouting off trite shite about destiny. Yin and yang are the polar opposites according to the wiki not good and evil necessarily but still opposites and if it's not the good Buffy completed by the evil Angel then it must be their personalities and I'm sorry but I just don't see them as opposites but rather two people who are very much alike.

You're correct, wiki isn't the most reliable source and it certainly doesn't tell people how to read the concept of Yin and Yang.

As I mentioned, your idea of opposite does not correspond with the idea of opposite as it relates to Yin and Yang. Whether or not both people are control freaks or lack a sense of humour has little to do with the concept of Yin and Yang. Buffy and Angel are opposites on a very basic level. The most obvious of this is because she's a Slayer and he's a vampire. Her powers are used to fight darkness and his are essentially a part of that darkness. They're also opposite in terms of appearance, she's blonde, cheery (relatively), associated with sunlight and he's dark, broody, and associated with the night. Like I said, Willow was correct in her comment about Yin and Yang; they are opposites that create a sort of balance when they're together. Buffy and Angel may have similar personality traits (stubbornness), but for the most part, the concept of Yin and Yang does fit them.

If it's something inside them that they are not aware of that is yin and yang well that would make me puke even more on the story.

The earth cannot exist without the sky, death cannot exist without life and a coin cannot exist without two sides. Yin and Yang are energies that exist inside all things. Buffy and Angel both have Yin and Yang inside themselves. Every human being has Yin and Yang inside of them. Our bad thoughts and good thoughts and bad emotions and good emotions are Yin and Yang. Buffy (Yang) and Angel (Yin) are simply living breathing representations of this Yin and Yang concept. Their love and attraction despite their opposition is a manifestation Yin and Yang.

I still say that they are not each other complements and I can't for the life of me see how anybody could see them as that, maybe it's just me and I'm the blind one but the whole season is just going from bland to bleh! to oh my god what a piece of shit.

You can disagree with the concept if you want, but I'm simply trying to explain to you why exactly that description works.

I'm not trying to shoot down the Bangel here because hey that's ok in my book, don't care for it much but nothing that would be a deal breaker for me but this whole destiny crap for which they seem to be going with this is driving me insane. It limits the growth of all the other characters because it means that they are always the most important ones and frankly I think that there are a lot more characters that should be allowed to grow that has much more potential than both Buffy and Angel. I know I'm getting real tired of how they treat Spike in the IDW comics and now they have pushed Faith to the side in the Buffy comics with no where to go not to mention Dawn and how boring her character has become.

End of rant 🙂

Well, the series is based on Buffy the Vampire Slayer and her journey. Maybe you should write the Spike series, or Faith series if you want more focus on them.

---------- Post added at 05:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:28 PM ----------

Either you're misunderstanding what the OP said, or I am. 😀 I obviously don't hold them to the same regard- Spike was willing in Gone, Buffy certainly wasn't willing in SR. But the point is that their relationship was one of abuse. They both abused each other, and their relationship had no actual boundaries, or, at least, Spike didn't know that they had boundaries. It was take take take for them, for BOTH of them. "Asking for permission" or even consent in general was never a part of it in S6. Yes, Spike made mistakes. But so did Buffy. (Although, please- Let's try and keep comments about the AR out of this thread. There are other places to discuss that, civilly. Thank you.)

I understand perfectly what the OP was saying and I don't agree with it. I do agree that Buffy and Spike's relationship was dysfunctional and emotionally abusive. What I mean by consent isn't "asking for permission"; I'm referring to the fact that they were both willing participants in that relationship. They didn't have sex with each other because they didn't want to and they weren't aggressive with each other because they didn't want to be. Buffy and Spike consented to their relationship and the sex they had in their relationship in some form. Aggressive sexual play is not equatable to rape. Buffy and Spike were on equal footing in their dysfunctional sexual relationship and were willingly taking from each other until the point where he tried to rape her. Rape is a boundary. A very clear boundary. Spike wanted to exert power over her and take something from her that at that moment she wasn't willing to give.

 

[Wishing Oceans]

I understand perfectly what the OP was saying and I don't agree with it. I do agree that Buffy and Spike's relationship was dysfunctional and emotionally abusive. What I mean by consent isn't "asking for permission"; I'm referring to the fact that they were both willing participants in that relationship. They didn't have sex with each other because they didn't want to and they weren't aggressive with each other because they didn't want to be. Buffy and Spike consented to their relationship and the sex they had in their relationship in some form. Aggressive sexual play is not equatable to rape. Buffy and Spike were on equal footing in their dysfunctional sexual relationship and were willingly taking from each other until the point where he tried to rape her. Rape is a boundary. A very clear boundary. Spike wanted to exert power over her and take something from her that at that moment she wasn't willing to give.

Hm. I'm not going to try and justify what Spike did, because it's not justifiable. But the point is that one, as JW said, Spike really didn't understand until afterwards the huge boundary that he'd just crossed. He was soulless; Essentially, he did not have the moral compass to differentiate between good and bad. Two, afterwards, when he looked back at it and saw what he had done to the woman that he loved, he took immediate action and began working towards redemption. He became a true hero.

So yeah, he made a mistake. A HUGE mistake. But I don't find it to be something that it's unforgivable, and it all ended for the better. (But, again, we should keep this discussion out of this particular thread.)

As for the Yin and Yang thing... Nah, that's too big a concept for me to consider at this time of night. :biggrin3:

 

[LilBufBuf]

Hm. I'm not going to try and justify what Spike did, because it's not justifiable. But the point is that one, as JW said, Spike really didn't understand until afterwards the huge boundary that he'd just crossed. He was soulless; Essentially, he did not have the moral compass to differentiate between good and bad. Two, afterwards, when he looked back at it and saw what he had done to the woman that he loved, he took immediate action and began working towards redemption. He became a true hero.

So yeah, he made a mistake. A HUGE mistake. But I don't find it to be something that it's unforgivable, and it all ended for the better. (But, again, we should keep this discussion out of this particular thread.)

As for the Yin and Yang thing... Nah, that's too big a concept for me to consider at this time of night. :biggrin3:

I'm not saying that what happened isn't more complex. I just didn't appreciate the implication that rough sex play/bdsm is comparable to rape.

 

[InsaneMystic]

I'm not saying that what happened isn't more complex. I just didn't appreciate the implication that rough sex play/bdsm is comparable to rape.

There are other threads to delve into excactly that, most notably:

The whole grudge on Spike, Part 1
...and Part 2

I've argued in them that the bathroom scene "Seeing Red" cannot justly be called "attempted rape", and that indeed, Buffy is as much responsible for it as Spike. So if you wanna continue that debate, feel free to read up on those threads and post there.

 

[LilBufBuf]

There are other threads to delve into excactly that, most notably:

The whole grudge on Spike, Part 1
...and Part 2

I've argued in them that the bathroom scene "Seeing Red" cannot justly be called "attempted rape", and that indeed, Buffy is as much responsible for it as Spike. So if you wanna continue that debate, feel free to read up on those threads and post there.

I disagree and it was attempted rape. It's not open for interpretation. And victim-blaming is not becoming of anyone.

 

[InsaneMystic]

It's not open for interpretation.

Yes it is, because I do interpret it differently. Please belay the condescendant attitude.

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

You know what I think is going to happen in #35? I think there's going to be a big twist where The Daleks were behind the WHOLE DAMN THING!

No I don't really think that but can you tell that I'm trying to change the subject? Hmm?

...I should probably go to bed. 'night everbody.

 

[crabby patty]

---------- Post added at 08:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:19 PM ----------


You've swallowed the red herring then (don't worry, pretty much all of of us did at first 😉) that they threw us there. It's been firmly established by everyone involved in the production that Spike went to Africa for no other reason than explicitly to get his soul, but that the writers made us think otherwise by writing his lines ambiguously.

Oh I see - thanks for updating me! I am always the last to know these things! I need to keep up more. Lol! 🙂

 

[Wishing Oceans]

Hm... Well this is awkward. (sw)

Which I imagine #35 to be as well, that's MY prediction! 😀

 

[SpaceLord]

As I mentioned, your idea of opposite does not correspond with the idea of opposite as it relates to Yin and Yang. Whether or not both people are control freaks or lack a sense of humour has little to do with the concept of Yin and Yang. Buffy and Angel are opposites on a very basic level. The most obvious of this is because she's a Slayer and he's a vampire. Her powers are used to fight darkness and his are essentially a part of that darkness. They're also opposite in terms of appearance, she's blonde, cheery (relatively), associated with sunlight and he's dark, broody, and associated with the night. Like I said, Willow was correct in her comment about Yin and Yang; they are opposites that create a sort of balance when they're together. Buffy and Angel may have similar personality traits (stubbornness), but for the most part, the concept of Yin and Yang does fit them.

Still doesn't work for me, cheery buffy? When is she cheery now? And hair colour is yin and yang? Slayer vampire? Hmm if I'm not misstaken the slayer power comes from a demon so they are both half-breeds if you wish. Her powers are use to fight the darkness his power is more about getting corrupted yes I see the yin yang there. Her powers might be used to fight the demons but so are his, those are just choices you make as we can see from S3 with Faith and since they are both on the same side, well at least they try to make us believe Angel is an all around good guy, that argument don't make any sense to me.

Buffy associated with sunlight? Hmm she spends most of her time in graveyards at night. He's dark and broody and she's petite and broody both sitting on their high horses of morale authority. So I give you that they are each others yin and yang if you go by size I suspect but even that comes into question if you go with they yin yang symbol which shows an equal amount of dark and light which means yin is bigger than yan in that case.

I'm sorry to say this but I feel your views are just like the writers of this piss poor story, trying to get it to make sense when in reality it does not.

But please keep trying to make your point it's fun :tongue3:

 

[LilBufBuf]

Still doesn't work for me, cheery buffy? When is she cheery now? And hair colour is yin and yang? Slayer vampire? Hmm if I'm not misstaken the slayer power comes from a demon so they are both half-breeds if you wish. Her powers are use to fight the darkness his power is more about getting corrupted yes I see the yin yang there. Her powers might be used to fight the demons but so are his, those are just choices you make as we can see from S3 with Faith and since they are both on the same side, well at least they try to make us believe Angel is an all around good guy, that argument don't make any sense to me.

Buffy associated with sunlight? Hmm she spends most of her time in graveyards at night. He's dark and broody and she's petite and broody both sitting on their high horses of morale authority. So I give you that they are each others yin and yang if you go by size I suspect but even that comes into question if you go with they yin yang symbol which shows an equal amount of dark and light which means yin is bigger than yan in that case.

I'm sorry to say this but I feel your views are just like the writers of this piss poor story, trying to get it to make sense when in reality it does not.

But please keep trying to make your point it's fun :tongue3:

It's not an argument. I was trying to explain Yin and Yang in the simplest terms possible, but since you don't seem to want to accept that discussion, then this conversation is pointless.