Some thoughts on "Chosen" (7x22)

RogueDemonHunter

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I'm most certaintly the minority here and I'm sure of it, but did anyone else feel like certain elements of Chosen, (and the episode before it, "End of Days") were just not all that they could have been? Now, they did get some things right, including:
-I liked all the Spuffy moments, where they spent multiple nights together, and especially at the end when Buffy finally admits her love for Spike
- I like how Spike died a champion, saving the world

Those are the two major things I liked, and think they got right, now I will proceed to list my major problems with this episode:
-I think that it was very poor writing from the writers to just throw the amulet in at the very beggining of the episode, and then have that amulet go on to win the battle for them. Buffy always found some clever or awesome way to beat the big bad, but this time they just through in a necklace that ended up winning the battle for them. I think that they could have found another way for Spike to save the world and somehow move to being on Angel without throwing in a random plot device.
-The spell to make every potential a slayer. This was also just thrown in in the last episode, and it also didn't end up helping win the battle , Spike's amulet did. Now, I do know that the point of having the "Every girl is a slayer" spell wasn't nessecarily to help win the battle, so much as it was thrown in there by the writers to make it so that Buffy wasn't the only Chosen anymore, and she kind of fit in. But I think that after seven years, the writers could have worked in some way of Buffy accepting her identity, or they could have taken the hard way out and not done anything of that nature.
-And thirdly, Buffy kissing Angel. Now I'm not trying to start a Spuffy v. Bangel war here, I would jut like to point out how out of character it was for both characters and how inconsistent this out of place kiss was to the Spuffy arc.

Now, I'm not to say that the series didn't end on a high note or that Chosen was a fail of an episode- But I feel like some elements could have been better executed, or the writers could have been a bit more creative and consistent, instead of tossing in some random amulet that can save the world and a spell that ruins the slayer dynamic. Also, as I mentioned before, the Buffy and Angel kiss was inconsistent to the Spuffy arc and out ofcharacter. Please don't make this thread a war over that one scene and whether or not that kiss should have happened.

Anyway, what are your thoughts?
 
I'm most certaintly the minority here and I'm sure of it, but did anyone else feel like certain elements of Chosen, (and the episode before it, "End of Days") were just not all that they could have been? Now, they did get some things right, including:
-I liked all the Spuffy moments, where they spent multiple nights together, and especially at the end when Buffy finally admits her love for Spike
- I like how Spike died a champion, saving the world

Those are the two major things I liked, and think they got right, now I will proceed to list my major problems with this episode:
-I think that it was very poor writing from the writers to just throw the amulet in at the very beggining of the episode, and then have that amulet go on to win the battle for them. Buffy always found some clever or awesome way to beat the big bad, but this time they just through in a necklace that ended up winning the battle for them. I think that they could have found another way for Spike to save the world and somehow move to being on Angel without throwing in a random plot device.
-The spell to make every potential a slayer. This was also just thrown in in the last episode, and it also didn't end up helping win the battle , Spike's amulet did. Now, I do know that the point of having the "Every girl is a slayer" spell wasn't nessecarily to help win the battle, so much as it was thrown in there by the writers to make it so that Buffy wasn't the only Chosen anymore, and she kind of fit in. But I think that after seven years, the writers could have worked in some way of Buffy accepting her identity, or they could have taken the hard way out and not done anything of that nature.
-And thirdly, Buffy kissing Angel. Now I'm not trying to start a Spuffy v. Bangel war here, I would jut like to point out how out of character it was for both characters and how inconsistent this out of place kiss was to the Spuffy arc.

Now, I'm not to say that the series didn't end on a high note or that Chosen was a fail of an episode- But I feel like some elements could have been better executed, or the writers could have been a bit more creative and consistent, instead of tossing in some random amulet that can save the world and a spell that ruins the slayer dynamic. Also, as I mentioned before, the Buffy and Angel kiss was inconsistent to the Spuffy arc and out ofcharacter. Please don't make this thread a war over that one scene and whether or not that kiss should have happened.

Anyway, what are your thoughts?

A few thoughts on this thread. I'll start this off by saying that I loved Chosen, all of it (and don't worry, there are plenty of people who aren't fans of it). I found it to be the single most inspiring episode of the series (although "Hero" gives it a run for it's money) and it's one of my favorites to re-watch.

I actually just watched the commentary on Chosen by Joss a few days ago, and he had some interesting thoughts on it. He said it was initially supposed to be a two hour episode but entanglements with the network didn't with the network prevented that. He said he felt rushed writing it and because of that, he focused on the message and theme of the show as opposed to maintaining continuity (the ubervamps becoming much easier to beat, for example). The amulet falls into that category as well (although, if you're a Spike fan, it's a wonderful plot device for him, and completes his story really well). I get that the continuity holes bother some people, but I get what he was going for as well, and that's why they've never really upset me.

Secondly, and this isn't meant to be a Bangel/Spuffy thing, I have to weigh on your thoughts about Angel and Buffy in Chosen. I get that people here are Spuffy's (and to be honest, I really like the Buffy/Spike dynamic. Seriously), but I think a lot of people miss what those scenes were about. The final scene with Spike is one of the most powerful, emotional scenes in the entire series, but remember his final line to Buffy: "No you don't, but thanks for saying it". I find a lot of people tend to just gloss over him saying that. I'm not saying that Buffy didn't love Spike, because I think in a way she absolutely did. She was close to Spike, and she needed him, but I don't think she was in love with him. That episode makes that pretty clear.

She has that whole talk with Angel about her being cookie dough, but she ends it by saying that she does still dream about them being together again someday. Maybe it's because I've always loved Buffy and Angel together, but I read that as them ending up together someday, when the fighting is done (obviously when, and if, that happens is ambiguous). I think she it that pretty clear that she's still in love with Angel. We saw something similar in "Forever" after Joyce dies. The whole theme of the Buffy/Angel relationship is that it's...well...forever, even if it isn't right now.

We saw an Angel who had just lost Cordy, who had just lost Connor, and who was once again being screwed with by Wolfram & Hart. I didn't think it was out of place for him at all to try and return to Sunnydale to be with Buffy. He hated, HATED, W&H. What was left for him in L.A.? And we saw in "Forever" that in a way, Buffy is always waiting for Angel. I didn't consider that a character flaw or bad writing at all.

Now, that being said, I don't think that takes anything away from Buffy and Spike. I thought Chosen did an excellent job of giving both fan bases (Bangel and Spuffy) great endings. Spike had been her romantic interest for three seasons, so clearly he had to have the main story, and I loved that. I thought Spuffy ended perfectly.

As for the "everyone becomes a Slayer" ending, I can see why people don't like it, but I thought it was a great ending to the story of the Slayer. Buffy totally revolutionizes what being a Slayer means, and she breaks away from this preconceived notion that the Slayer has to be alone. I think that's a pretty powerful statement, regardless of if they were effective or needed in the final fight.

Wow...just reread all that. Lot of writing. Hope I didn't go overboard (but I love debating Buffy, so I hope we talk more)🙂
 
S
SlayerOfVampyrs
Repped because I absolutely agree with what you had to say about Angel, Spuffy, and Bangel.
MarlieTheSlayer
MarlieTheSlayer
[No message]
A few thoughts on this thread. I'll start this off by saying that I loved Chosen, all of it (and don't worry, there are plenty of people who aren't fans of it). I found it to be the single most inspiring episode of the series (although "Hero" gives it a run for it's money) and it's one of my favorites to re-watch.

I actually just watched the commentary on Chosen by Joss a few days ago, and he had some interesting thoughts on it. He said it was initially supposed to be a two hour episode but entanglements with the network didn't with the network prevented that. He said he felt rushed writing it and because of that, he focused on the message and theme of the show as opposed to maintaining continuity (the ubervamps becoming much easier to beat, for example). The amulet falls into that category as well (although, if you're a Spike fan, it's a wonderful plot device for him, and completes his story really well). I get that the continuity holes bother some people, but I get what he was going for as well, and that's why they've never really upset me.

Secondly, and this isn't meant to be a Bangel/Spuffy thing, I have to weigh on your thoughts about Angel and Buffy in Chosen. I get that people here are Spuffy's (and to be honest, I really like the Buffy/Spike dynamic. Seriously), but I think a lot of people miss what those scenes were about. The final scene with Spike is one of the most powerful, emotional scenes in the entire series, but remember his final line to Buffy: "No you don't, but thanks for saying it". I find a lot of people tend to just gloss over him saying that. I'm not saying that Buffy didn't love Spike, because I think in a way she absolutely did. She was close to Spike, and she needed him, but I don't think she was in love with him. That episode makes that pretty clear.

She has that whole talk with Angel about her being cookie dough, but she ends it by saying that she does still dream about them being together again someday. Maybe it's because I've always loved Buffy and Angel together, but I read that as them ending up together someday, when the fighting is done (obviously when, and if, that happens is ambiguous). I think she it that pretty clear that she's still in love with Angel. We saw something similar in "Forever" after Joyce dies. The whole theme of the Buffy/Angel relationship is that it's...well...forever, even if it isn't right now.

We saw an Angel who had just lost Cordy, who had just lost Connor, and who was once again being screwed with by Wolfram & Hart. I didn't think it was out of place for him at all to try and return to Sunnydale to be with Buffy. He hated, HATED, W&H. What was left for him in L.A.? And we saw in "Forever" that in a way, Buffy is always waiting for Angel. I didn't consider that a character flaw or bad writing at all.

Now, that being said, I don't think that takes anything away from Buffy and Spike. I thought Chosen did an excellent job of giving both fan bases (Bangel and Spuffy) great endings. Spike had been her romantic interest for three seasons, so clearly he had to have the main story, and I loved that. I thought Spuffy ended perfectly.

As for the "everyone becomes a Slayer" ending, I can see why people don't like it, but I thought it was a great ending to the story of the Slayer. Buffy totally revolutionizes what being a Slayer means, and she breaks away from this preconceived notion that the Slayer has to be alone. I think that's a pretty powerful statement, regardless of if they were effective or needed in the final fight.

Wow...just reread all that. Lot of writing. Hope I didn't go overboard (but I love debating Buffy, so I hope we talk more)🙂

So I was going to give you reputation on this but then I got wordy and realized it won't fit, haha. Agreement with so much of this. I'm generally pretty neutral in terms of the Bangel v. Spuffy debate (both are interesting in different ways) but I love your thoughts on it here. I think Angel will always be someone she loves, whether or not they can ever actually be together. Their future always seemed a bit bleak to me, unless Angel's curse is broken, but the feelings remain true. I thought the kiss was nice since it not only brought viewers back to the beginning of the series and Buffy's first romance, but it also to me made sense because it was definitely one of those 'well, we're probably all gonna die anyway' situations. Wouldn't you want a little something from someone you love before going into such a big battle? Doesn't mean she didn't have feelings for Spike as well.

As for the other things, I thought the amulet was a bit of a cop out when I watched it the first time, but now I find it sort of nice. The thing about it is they didn't know what it was going to do so it's not as though they found it as an easy solution and didn't have to do any work. I really, really loved the spell to make all the potentials slayers. Not only was it a chance for Willow to work further towards redemption but just the idea that Buffy is no longer alone was to me a beautiful note to end on. (Holy rambles, Batman!)
 
R
Robb Stark
Thanks. I was worried I would bug people
I have never seen any other story where the writers messed up so much that they needed not one but two Deus ex Machina in order to get the plot from point A to point B. In Chosen we have the scythe and the amulet. And they still had to make the Turok-hans vastly weaker than they had been portrayed before. All in all, a complete trainwreck of a finale.
 
Honestly, I watch Buffy for the emotional resonance and the characters. Plot has never been a strong point to the show, and while the show had its missteps, the meaning behind it always rang true to me. So count me as another Chosen fan. And I've heard more people complain about the finale than the ones that are fans of it, so I don't think you're in the minority. Also I've never heard of any show's series finale that everyone loved. With a series finale, you can't make everyone happy. But I can live with the flaws, because the intent is always genuine, and the message of female empowerment was beautiful to me. I'm just not a nitpicker. 😉
 
R
Robb Stark
Chosen had an amazing message
D
dexeded
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Miss Kitty
Miss Kitty
[No message]
I think emotional resonance was the goal here, rather than plot contrivances (Joss has never been that good at plot holes anyway). The Gift, for example, made Olaf a troll god instead of just a troll, not to mention the weird Buffy/Dawn blood thingy that no one really got, but the emotional resonance was so strong that it overshadowed the plot inconsistencies. Chosen is like that too. The problem is that the plot holes are much bigger and more apparent than in The Gift, which I take issue with. Nonetheless, I loved the finale thematically.
 
I agree a lot with your thoughts on the amulet ! I wasn't a big fan of this twist, which came at the last moment. But I realize that I'm more attached to the symbolism. In a way, it was just a tool, which was there for serving the story/the bigger picture. What's important to me is more how it affects the story and the characters journey.
But from a 'material' point of view, I agree that it was too much easy...

But still, Chosen is one of my favorites episodes 🙂


I also wanted to react to the Buffy/Angel scene. Just in order to put a different perspective on the scene (I also react to what's been said previously ^^).

I don't think it was out of characters (out of context, yes, but not necessarily out of characters). Buffy and Angel are stuck in a relationship they lived together at the beginning of their love life, and the way it ended didn't allow them to say definitely goodbye to their relationship. In a way, that's something that is idealized and which remains stuck in the past. We always love passionately the first times we fall in love, more particularly when we're teenagers, because we don't have a full complete and constructed life, our priorities are different (even if Angel wasn't a teenager, he was at the same point than her in his emotional journey, that's why their relationship worked pretty well by this time). When Angel left, he got friends on his own, he found his own vocation, he fell in love with Cordelia, he became a dad... Buffy, for her part, grew in responsabilities with the death of her mother, the fact that she had to look after her little sister, take the lead of an army of young girls, all the difficulties she had been through after her resurrection... She became more responsible, more severe (in a way) and redefine her priorities... She simply put a different look on the World, and her way of loving became different (which is totally natural and healthy). Those 'experiences' changed them, they both became different persons, and I think that, in a long term, they would both expect something different from a relationship. Being in a relationship when you're 16 is a lot different than being in a relationship when you're an adult. And... you know, in my opinion, I think the only way for considering Buffy and Angel as a viable romantic option in the present is if they work on their issues and get to know each other in a complete different perspective. They have to move on from that idealized first relationship if they want to create a new one. But (it's a matter of personal opinion), I don't think their characters would work well together as adult lovers and I'm not even sure they would be able to make it. But again, it's my own perspective, I understand if people disagree.

I think Buffy and Angel will always have a deep affection for each other, in a way, they'll always love those memories they have of each other, but I don't believe they're still in love with each other. That's what the Chosen scene tells us (in my interpretation). When they're together, they come back to that period of time, without consideration for their respective evolutions, or how much they grew and changed. They come back in that bubble in which they were years ago, when their lives were differents, and when their expectations were differents (that's why this scene can be interpreted as out of characters : because it didn't fit with who they were at this point of their evolution). It doesn't change the fact that they don't know each other anymore. They sure love a memory they have of each other, and a memory they have of their relationship, but I don't think it would fit with who they are *now*. It works when you see the person for few minutes, or even few days, but when you come back to your life, it simply doesn't fit.

When Angel left at the end of season 3, she told him that she wanted her future to be with him. In Chosen, this affirmation became a "maybe". I'm sure she believed it, both times, but she still sees their relationship through her teenager glasses, without realizing how much everything that happened in her life after he left changed her. Or even how much HE changed. She can't be proven wrong in her beliefs, because she saw him three times in three years, for less than an hour. The absent/missing persons are always right. They can't change your vision of them, simply because they're not there. And the fact here is : Buffy and Angel know very little about their present lives, and their present ways of being.

To me, the whole point of the cookie dough speech was to show that. She doesn't know what she wants. She doesn't know what to expect from her life (and her love life). She still has to find herself. To get to know Buffy, for knowing, after that, what a 'Buffy adult and in love' would need in her love life. It makes sense that she says to Angel that she sometimes sees a future with him, because that's the only way she thought of them by the past, when her life was different (and simpler, in a way). And in a way, she's still stuck in this way of thinking, she didn't get the opportunity to fully think about her love life (season 5 was full of new responsabilities, season 6 added a depression to those, and season 7 was about her being the leader of an army). But she started to realize that she doesn't know what she wants now. What she needs now (side note : I think the comics are doing a really good job for that), because she didn't get the chance yet to fully think about it. And she knows even less what the 'future Buffy' would want or need.

Anyway, from this perspective, I found that scene interesting.


Now, concerning Spuffy, they get to know each other during a different period of time. Things were more difficult for Buffy, and looking for a love life probably was the last thing she was able to do. But Spike, in a way or another, always was the person she relied on the most. They saw each other in their darkest moments and their most beautiful moments, which finally offered a really complete vision of each other, because they remained true to who they were. They didn't lie about who they were, whatever flaws they had. But finally, in despite of the fact that she didn't meant to fall in love with him, she absolutely ended up there. She wasn't looking for love, but it just happened, which is something I find even more interesting. This is something they live on the moment, something they need, but not something they're necessarily looking for.

What I find the most striking in this episode, concerning their relationship, is how beautiful the symbolism was. I don't only talk about their firing hands, which is a nice call to OMWF, when Buffy was singing "I want the fire back", but also the moment she chose to spend her possible last night on Earth in his arms. She could have chose her sister, her long time best friends or her father figure... But she chose him, which tells us a lot about her feelings. If you had the opportunity to spend your last hours with someone, who would you choose ? Spuffy is all about those symbolisms and details, which are telling on the bottom line.

I think the last scene in the Hellmouth was beautiful. Her declaration comes to the worst moment possible, but it was her last chance to say it (and I think she fully realized how much he meant to her the moment she was about to loose him), even if she possibly wasn't ready to say it out loud. During the last seasons, Buffy questionned a lot herself and her capacity to feel love, while, like the First Slayer said, her love is "brighter than the fire" (heh ! 😛 ). I think she was scared, she's been hurt a lot by the past and the more time passes, the more 'I love you' is not something she says easily. But here, it only came to confirm what we saw during all the season. Buffy is a person who expresses a lot her feelings through her actions and ways of caring for people.

[Side note : I also liked a lot that Buffy's last words on the show were "I love you... Spike". Beautiful homage.]

And, personally, I know it's not a popular opinion, but I sometimes tend to think that Spike believed her, but wanted to make her leave. Spike told her several times to go, to leave the Hellmouth, but Buffy didn't want to. There is an interesting bit in the shooting script, which finally wasn't in the episode, but which corroborates this interpretation ; just after saying "No, you don't", Spike was supposed to say this :

SPIKE
No you don't. But thanks for saying it.

A big quake rocks them. Spike pushes her away.

SPIKE (cont'd)
It's your world up there. Now GO!

I don't know if we really can consider this as canon, but it's a part of my personal canon. To me, he simply wanted to offer to her the life she wanted. He wanted her to live (and to leave), be sure she was safe. It would also fit with Joss commentary, "What I basically told [Sarah and James] was: "Play the romance. Be proud of him. Love him when you say you love him. Love her when you say she doesn't love you."

But what confirms the most that he possibly believed her (still in my interpretation), is his way of reacting when he comes back in Angel. He told Angel that he had "no idea of what they [him and Buffy] had". Which was an instantaneous reaction to what happened in the Hellmouth (for him, it probably last only few seconds between Chosen and his return in AtS). But time and being around Angel during all season 5 made him more insecure and fearful.

And even if he didn't believed her, it doesn't remove the fact that... he's not her. He can't speak truth for her. And when it comes to Buffy and her feelings, he's the most insecure guy ever. He's not the person which has the most clear vision on the situation, since he's a part of it.

Sorry for the rant, I hope I wasn't too much out of topic 😱
 
D
dexeded
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Cheese Slices
Cheese Slices
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I think Buffy and Angel will always have a deep affection for each other, in a way, they'll always love those memories they have of each other, but I don't believe they're still in love with each other. That's what the Chosen scene tells us (in my interpretation). When they're together, they come back to that period of time, without consideration for their respective evolutions, or how much they grew and changed. They come back in that bubble in which they were years ago, when their lives were differents, and when their expectations were differents (that's why this scene can be interpreted as out of characters : because it didn't fit with who they were at this point of their evolution). It doesn't change the fact that they don't know each other anymore. They sure love a memory they have of each other, and a memory they have of their relationship, but I don't think it would fit with who they are *now*. It works when you see the person for few minutes, or even few days, but when you come back to your life, it simply doesn't fit.

When Angel left at the end of season 3, she told him that she wanted her future to be with him. In Chosen, this affirmation became a "maybe". I'm sure she believed it, both times, but she still sees their relationship through her teenager glasses, without realizing how much everything that happened in her life after he left changed her. Or even how much HE changed. She can't be proven wrong in her beliefs, because she saw him three times in three years, for less than an hour. The absent/missing persons are always right. They can't change your vision of them, simply because they're not there. And the fact here is : Buffy and Angel know very little about their present lives, and their present ways of being.

To me, the whole point of the cookie dough speech was to show that. She doesn't know what she wants. She doesn't know what to expect from her life (and her love life). She still has to find herself. To get to know Buffy, for knowing, after that, what a 'Buffy adult and in love' would need in her love life. It makes sense that she says to Angel that she sometimes sees a future with him, because that's the only way she thought of them by the past, when her life was different (and simpler, in a way). And in a way, she's still stuck in this way of thinking, she didn't get the opportunity to fully think about her love life (season 5 was full of new responsabilities, season 6 added a depression to those, and season 7 was about her being the leader of an army). But she started to realize that she doesn't know what she wants now. What she needs now (side note : I think the comics are doing a really good job for that), because she didn't get the chance yet to fully think about it. And she knows even less what the 'future Buffy' would want or need.

I don't know if they "go back into the bubble", really. I think that the interaction between Buffy and Angel in "Chosen" is pretty unique from the ones they've had in the past. I know that the "you're first love is different" argument is a favorite, but it just doesn't seem to fit with Buffy and Angel (or at least, I don't feel it fits as a reason why they can't or won't be together).

Buffy and Angel had a very mature meeting in Chosen. It wasn't blind love like a lot of people interpret it. Like you said, they've both grown up a lot since Angel left Sunnydale, but I don't think that means they've grown apart, or that they can't work. Angel makes it very clear that he sees a future with Buffy, and that's different than what we saw in S3. I think he realized that she had grown up. And Buffy is clearly still thinking about him. By S7 Buffy has changed a lot in her way of looking at life. I never saw her as just regressing or going into a love-struck bubble.

And I think they kept tabs on one another over the years. Angel in S5 of his show seems to know a lot about what she's doing post-Chosen, and Buffy makes it apparent that while she's not in constant contact with him, she's aware of what he's up to in L.A.

I'm not sure if I'm saying this right, I'm trying to figure out a way to articulate it properly. I said it in one of my above posts, but through all their interactions over the course of both series' and all the changes both of them go through, and it culminates in Chosen, I think they make it pretty clear that that they're always in love with each other (the whole "forever" theme).

But again, like you said, it's an interpretation thing.
 
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