Something that ticked my nerves!!!!!

[Cordelia Chase*]

I just hated when everyone woould always go up against Buffy and not seeing things from her point of view. Like when she returned from LA, everyone was making it harder for her and yet she kept saving them. Or like when they found out about Angel returning. Buffy should of kicked Xanders a**!!!!!!!!!!!!

Personally if I were the Slayer, I'd let some vamps nibble on them for a while.........then I'd save them.

 

[The Arcane]

You ever stop to think that they all might have been right? Or at the very least that they were all entitled to their opinions and beliefs?

From a viewers perspective we are given a unique view of goings on in the series. A chance to get all the details and really get a good idea as to why a character does what they do. Even then you don't always neccessarily agree with their actions but at least you get a good idea why they did them.

The characters in the show don't have that advantage however. They only have their own view on what has happened and can't get inside the heads of those around them, let alone see everything that we get to see. When Buffy disappeared they had absolutely no idea about what was going on in Buffy's head and why she chose to leave. All they knew was that they were worried. Just because Buffy is the title character of the show to us, doesn't mean a damn to them. To them she is just their friend and someone they care about. They had every right to be at least a little pissed with her for doing what she did.

As for the Angel situation, well given all he had done and was capable of doing i think anyone would be annoyed to find out that Buffy had been harbouring him again in secret. Sure, she loved the guy, but they didn't. In fact several of them hated him with intense passion after the end of season 2 and had every right to do so. So were they supposed to be all happiness and smiles when they found out he was back, just because Buffy said so?

Like i said before, the fact that Buffy happens to be the title character of the series doesn't mean a damn to those within the show, and it should not do so. To them, no matter how much good she may or may not do, she is a person like anybody else and just as capable of making a mistake.

Joss writes his characters realistically and they react as they would in the real world. That is all they were doing in the situations you mentioned.

 

[Cordelia Chase*]

of course, but they still went over board with it. One, Xander was always jelous of Angel anyways because he had Buffy. But another reason that made me pissed, was when they were talking trash trying to figure out how Angel turned evil, not knowing he was Buffys first and they did the do.

 

[Lyri]

The Watcher is right, IMO.

When Buffy disappeared at the end of S2, her friends had no idea of the circumstances surrounding her disicion. they were under the impression that Willow's spell hadn't worked, so they all thought that she had killed the soulles creature that had tortured Giles, killed Jenny and done some many other evils things to them.
but as viewers, we knew that, in fact, Buffy had been forced to kill the man she fell in love with, his soul intact, which makes her reactions justifiable in ourn opinions.

Xander had a right to act the way he did when he realized Angel was back, and that Buffy had been keeping his return a secret. as far as he was concerned, Angel was still evil, he didn't know that
Willow's spell had worked and that Angel was re-ensouled. all that Xander remembers is the fact that Angel tortured and murdered people he knew and cared about...and that fact that one of his best friends was helping the vampire instead of killing him...which he believes was Buffy's job...which is why, when she wouldn't do it, he got Faith instead.

with the facts the gang had on offer to them, they acted justifiably.

 

[Tucker's Cousin]

I'm a big supporter of Buffy, but she could have handled both these situations much better. She should have at least called to let everyone know she was okay, maybe explain why she'd left. She should definitely have said something about Angel's return. So, the problem there was her lack of communicating what was going on.

But the Scoobs were equally guilty of this when she came back from LA. I understand that they were unhappy with the way she acted, but all they did was ignor her and act like everything was sort of okay the few times they interacted with her. In their position, I would have at first been overjoyed at her return, then let her have it about where she'd been and what she'd done, why didn't she at least call. The party was a stupid idea and they should've seen this, and attacking her in a public forum like that was wrong. This is the main reason why this ep really bugs me. Not that they're unhappy with her, as they should be, but because of the way they handle it. I don't think they did act like real people. I keep thinking Buffy should have just given them the finger and taken off again.

As for Xander's behaviour, he was always jealous of Angel. There was much evidence of this before Angelus came on the scene. I don't think this was fueling his reaction to finding out about Buffy harbouring him on his return, but it was a part of it. Xander is one of my favourite chars. in both series, but it really bugs me the way he acts where Angel and Buffy is concerned on a few occasions, this being one of them.

 

[The Arcane]

of course, but they still went over board with it. One, Xander was always jelous of Angel anyways because he had Buffy.

I don't think they went over board at all. They found out Buffy had lied to them and confronted her on the subject. Voices were raised on both sides and then they resolved things as best they could. They were all angry, very understandable in my mind, especially in the cases of Giles and Xander. And yes, of course we know Xander was jealous of Angel but so what? That doesn't change what had occured in the second half of season two or that they had a right to be mad about it. Accusing Xander of only being angry through jealousy is extremely short sighted, because now he had a lot more reasons to hate Angel. Very real ones.

But another reason that made me pissed, was when they were talking trash trying to figure out how Angel turned evil, not knowing he was Buffys first and they did the do.

Well, you just answered your own point there. They really didn't know what had happened. In fact they hadn't got the slightest clue about what could have turned him evil. How can you blame them for anything they said at that point when there was no way for them to know what had gone on between Buffy and Angel? Or maybe they were just supposed to have guessed that they had had sex the night before and this had led to the curse being lifted ... except none of them, Buffy included, knew anything about the happiness clause to the curse, did they? Therefore, why be pissed over something none of them could possibly have guessed?

 

[Cordelia Chase*]

Because I love Buffy. She already had the weight of the world on her shoulders because she was the slayer. Then dealing with the problems of her mom finding out of her destiny and telling her to leave. Killing her one true love, and high tailing it out of Sunnydale. Then struggling to leave slaying behind, but saved lives anyways. Then the pain of returning to Sunnydale.

I could go on, but enough said.

 

[The Arcane]

Because I love Buffy. She already had the weight of the world on her shoulders because she was the slayer. Then dealing with the problems of her mom finding out of her destiny and telling her to leave. Killing her one true love, and high tailing it out of Sunnydale. Then struggling to leave slaying behind, but saved lives anyways. Then the pain of returning to Sunnydale.

I could go on, but enough said.

You just answered my question about your reaction to events in Surprise & Innocence with points relevant to the start of season 3 but to answer you ... again you, yourself, were able to experience all that whilst the characters were not. They might well have understood the fact that her being the slayer meant that she had a lot on her shoulders but then again they were all a part of that life too, not to mention that they were there for Buffy when she needed them. She was the one who chose to leave and let them all worry about where she was and what trouble she might be in. We know why, they did not.

We, as viewers, were along for the whole rollercoaster of Buffy's emotional ride. The other characters did not have that benefit and so acted with their own emotions and feelings first, as regular people tend to do. It was because they loved Buffy so much and were so worried about her that her actions did annoy them so much. Realistic reactions to extraordinary circumstances.

 

[Cordelia Chase*]

Ok, but if you put the leaving in, then you'll have to blame Joyce. When she told her she had to save the world, after Joyce met Spike ans learned she was the Slayer, she told Buffy if she leave then don't come back.

So Joyce is blamable for this.

 

[The Arcane]

Ok, but if you put the leaving in, then you'll have to blame Joyce. When she told her she had to save the world, after Joyce met Spike ans learned she was the Slayer, she told Buffy if she leave then don't come back.

So Joyce is blamable for this.

Joyce is to blame for overreacting, certainly, but she was dealing with a very difficult situation. In the space of an hour she had learned that vampires were real and that her daughter was a superhuman who's job it was to slay them. Not something you can deal with all that easily.

Yes, Joyce's reaction was unfortunate but she panicked and, believing that Buffy was in danger, said something to try make her stay home, something i would imagine most mums have said to their kids in the heat of an argument. I know that there were times when i was growing up that i would argue with my mum and go to walk out, getting pretty much the same "you walk out that door, don't bother coming back" threat. I'd still walk out and yet i'd also still go back again and we would patch things up. That is just parent/kid stuff.

That didn't make it okay for Buffy to disappear though. She could just of easily have gone back home and tried to clear the air. Again, we know that there were circumstances that made that much harder, but Joyce could not have known how that night was going to turn out.

Why be so quick to blame everyone else when the truth was that nobody was really to blame and they were all reacting to events they found difficult to deal with. The things that you are blaming Joyce and the Scoobies for are far from fair and i think if you take time to look at other points of view beyond just defending Buffy blindly (who made some poor choices herself regardless of the fact we know why) then maybe you would understand a little better.

 

[Tucker's Cousin]

The Watcher: It seems like you're asking us to accept, understand, and forgive that the Scoobies and Joyce didn't know what we knew about everything that happened to Buffy, but you're not reversing that to be more forgiving of Buffy's actions. Everybody was at fault. Buffy should have called or, yeah, possibly just gone home. But the Scoobs and Joyce should have handled her return better. Or differently, at least.

 

[The Arcane]

The Watcher: It seems like you're asking us to accept, understand, and forgive that the Scoobies and Joyce didn't know what we knew about everything that happened to Buffy, but you're not reversing that to be more forgiving of Buffy's actions. Everybody was at fault. Buffy should have called or, yeah, possibly just gone home. But the Scoobs and Joyce should have handled her return better. Or differently, at least.

Exactly the opposite, to be honest. In fact i don't blame Buffy for her actions at all, but that is only because i was privvy to ALL the facts about why she made those choices. Had Buffy gone to her mum and the gang before leaving and explained that she needed to get away for a while to sort herself out then they could have had the same information we did. Instead they were left to worry and because of that had months to deal with Buffy being gone and only days to deal with her being back.

My point is, and always was, that i don't blame any of them because i understand all of their reactions. I only dwelt on explaining the actions of the others because CC* was falling so far on the opposite end of the debate in blindly defending Buffy and i needed to balance the scales.

 

[Cordelia Chase*]

OK! I have already seen your point The Watcher. True Buffy acted wrongly on some parts as well as the Scoobies and Joyce. But my thing is that they over reacted on some of the subject. Yes Angel was evil. Killing and torturing, but he has also saved they're lives and fought by their side faithfully, so I say they over reacted to the problem.

 

[Tucker's Cousin]

Exactly the opposite, to be honest. In fact i don't blame Buffy for her actions at all, but that is only because i was privvy to ALL the facts about why she made those choices. Had Buffy gone to her mum and the gang before leaving and explained that she needed to get away for a while to sort herself out then they could have had the same information we did. Instead they were left to worry and because of that had months to deal with Buffy being gone and only days to deal with her being back.

My point is, and always was, that i don't blame any of them because i understand all of their reactions. I only dwelt on explaining the actions of the others because CC* was falling so far on the opposite end of the debate in blindly defending Buffy and i needed to balance the scales.

Fair enough. It just seems that there are those who question everything Buffy does and don't really like her too much, bizarre seeing as the show is more about her than any of the other characters. That makes me jump to her defense too quickly at times...

 

[Cordelia Chase*]

True. I'll have to agree with you on this.

 

[The Arcane]

Sorry, CC*, but you still haven't seen the point at all! Joss writes his characters as real people with real feelings. You just don't forgive somebody for torturing you, or killing a friend of yours, no matter what he might have done before. It just isn't possible! Add that to the fact that Buffy had lied to them to protect Angel. You still can't see why they would be so angry, under those circumstances. I would be furious with her, if it was me.

Honestly, CC*, i'm not trying to be nasty by saying this but for somebody who has started a thread here to give advice to others, you sure have a lot of learning to do when it comes to understanding how and why people react. I'd suggest you go back and rewatch a few episodes, this time keeping a more open mind about what is going on in the lives of the others, rather than just Buffy. Put yourself in the place of Xander, or maybe Giles, and then tell me how you think they should have reacted.

Tucker's Cousin, no problem, i'm always ready to jump to Buffy's defense too! My problem is i feel obliged to do the same for all the characters, lol!

 

[Cordelia Chase*]

I understand, but its Buffy!!!!!!!
Faith tortured Wesley, but he eventually forgave her. But yes, I might have reacted the same as Xander and the others if I put myself in their shoes.

the Advice column aint got nothing to do with a discussion.

But I really do see your point.

 

[drtroy]

I agree ..and I see both points..yes buffy could have been selfish by lieing and not telling them..and leaving..but we all would have done the same thing..I understand the writer was capturing it from different points..views..but it seemed like everyone blamed her for everything..no matter what she did.

What annoyed me about Xander is the fact that he acted like he owned buffy..and he hated every guy she dated..he didn't really like riley...from the beginning ...especially when she started dating him..i could see why he didnt like spike or angel..but he didnt really HATE spike until he knew him and both were sleeping together.

I understand Angel was a huge threat..and she should have told someone..but for Xander to run off like a little girl..and tell that was just stupid. He should have told her "buffy if you don't tell giles..I will tell him"..but the way he ran and told giles it was messed up.

And it amazes me how forgiving BUFFY is...willow nearly killed dawn at one point..giles nearly got buffy killed..and so on..but she quickly forgave everyne and moved on...without ever dwelling on it ..and throwing it back into their faces..

like...everyone else did when she made a mistake..they failed to realize that she was only human and made mistakes..

 

[The Arcane]

I agree ..and I see both points..yes buffy could have been selfish by lieing and not telling them..and leaving..but we all would have done the same thing..I understand the writer was capturing it from different points..views..but it seemed like everyone blamed her for everything..no matter what she did.

Truthfully, i really wouldn't have done the same. I saw why Buffy made that choice but i personally wouldn't have run off to LA. I would have sorted things out with my mother and friends first and let them know that i needed to get away for a while. Given all the facts, i seriously doubt any of them would have resented Buffy going away had she been straight with them.

What annoyed me about Xander is the fact that he acted like he owned buffy..and he hated every guy she dated..he didn't really like riley...from the beginning ...especially when she started dating him..i could see why he didnt like spike or angel..but he didnt really HATE spike until he knew him and both were sleeping together.

Well, for the most part, that is called jealousy, and most guys have been guilty of it at one time or another, so Xander is far from being unusual there. The Angel thing was absolutely jealousy, although he actually did have an issue with the whole "him being a vampire" too. It was half having the hots for Buffy and half worrying that she wasn't safe with Angel, in my opinion.

The Riley thing, well to be honest i'm not entirely sure there was a thing there. Xander never appeared jealous of Riley at all. In fact, by that time he was pretty much over Buffy (as much as he ever will be) and had moved on to Anya. In fact he and Riley always seemed pretty friendly to me.

The Spike thing was a total different kettle of fish. He really did hate Spike, even before he got together with Buffy, but it was more fun to taunt him and make fun of the fact that he couldn't hurt anyone than to actually spend time telling everyone how much he hated the guy.

Even when he found out about Spike being with Buffy it was less about her and more about the whole situation. He hated Spike anyway (again, the "being a vamp" thing) but now he had seen him having sex with Anya in the Magic Box. All that was then topped off with the fact that Buffy, one of his closest friends, was in a relationship with him. Definately more to it then just hating Spike for being with Buffy.

It's too easy to paint these characters in black and white if you don't look at the wider picture. Very few opinions stem from a single event. Xander is far more layered than just "jealous guy with the hots for Buffy".

I understand Angel was a huge threat..and she should have told someone..but for Xander to run off like a little girl..and tell that was just stupid. He should have told her "buffy if you don't tell giles..I will tell him"..but the way he ran and told giles it was messed up.

Messed up or actually the most sensible thing he ever did? How was he to know that Angel was back to his old ensouled self? He had no idea what had happened to bring Angel back or what was going on with Buffy.

Even if he could have been certain that Angel was safe to be around again there is still anger to take into account. He hated Angel for countless reasons, including killing Jenny, torturing Giles, nearly killing Willow, so on and so on. Any real reason why he should have been Mr Wise and Fair and given Buffy the chance to explain? He was pissed off and had a right to be. Letting the other Scoobies know that a murderer and torturer was back in Sunnydale was perfectly understandable. Just because we, as viewers, were aware of the whole truth doesn't mean he would share our more openminded opinion.

And it amazes me how forgiving BUFFY is...willow nearly killed dawn at one point..giles nearly got buffy killed..and so on..but she quickly forgave everyne and moved on...without ever dwelling on it ..and throwing it back into their faces..

like...everyone else did when she made a mistake..they failed to realize that she was only human and made mistakes..

Well, firstly, take into account that all the instances you mention happen later on, after Buffy runs away and then later hides Angel. Giles taking away her abilities, Willow nearly killing Dawn, all after she had made the mistakes we are discussing. The point being that she had learned from her own experiences that people do make mistakes, and as such she was able to be more understanding, knowing what she had done in the past.

However, more to the point, Buffy didn't forgive right away. She was incredibly angry at Giles and Willow for what they did and reacted accordingly. It was only later, after she had taken the time to calm down, that she forgave them. The same can be said for the others. They all got angry at Buffy, reacted to it, then later forgave her. In all cases the differences were resolved by episodes end, for the most part. Therefore it wouldn't seem that Buffy was any quicker to forgive than Xander, Giles or any of the others. They all reacted pretty much the same way, as far as i can see.

 

[Jules]

Just to add, in the case of Buffy, Xander and Willow, these are teenage friends. Outside of the whole supernatural view, arguements between friends will happen and they will be explosive, especially between the Scoobies. There with each other every day, there placed in stressful conditions and they mostly get on. But when they don't, their arguements are explosive. Buffy and Xander are the most arguementative. Their both stubborn and won't back down.

I don't think either Buffy or her friends are completely blameless in this.