Something You Liked/Were Cool With Before but Buggs You Now?

Riderofapocalypse

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Hello all. Forgive me if this has been discussed before, but I want other fan's input/opinions.

'Riddle me this batman': Is there anything in Buffy/Angel that originally you enjoyed or tolerated, but after re-watching, discussing or critical thinking, those same thing(s) doesn't sit so well with you now? (remember that were going with only what we see on screen only)
For Me:
-Spike didn't have a soul but still sought Buffy as a romantic interest. (Romantic, not just lust)
-It took both the enemy in Mayor Wilkins the 3'rd and a good guy in Joyce Summers, to convince Angel (at least a century old vampire with years of wisdom) that it would never work between himself and Buffy because they are basically different species.
-Oz. In my opinion/mind, someone who is a werewolf should be more of an aggressive individual. Or at least be shown as someone who is at a constant struggle to not unleash the beast as, we saw with Nina in Angel. Oz on the other hand acted like he was on depressants comparatively. (With the exception of the episode in Buffy S4 when he was involved with the other female werewolf who was also in a band. And when Oz came back to Sunnydale to rekindle with Willow)
-Dawn's character was introduced in the way she was, but everything remained the same from the past as it did before Dawn was introduced (for the most part.)
-The First. What a let down. An incorporeal being that can pop in whenever it pleases to mess with your head and the best it does is get one potential Slayer to hang herself. (I'm not making light of the suicide nor what was being represented with that.) You'd think with that kind of power, the First would constantly be doing things like interrupting the 'good guys' sleep and appearing as loved ones while horribly disfigured and such.
The Big One:
-Among other reasons, to aid in the great choreographed fights and so the audience doesn't always ask, 'Why don't you just whip out a gun and shoot him?'...both shows of Buffy and Angel used melee weapons and manual, reloading, medieval ,projectile weapons (Crossbow). Then in Buffy S3, Mr. Trick utters to a vampire he caged, 'It's called an uzi chump, wooulda saved yo ass right about now'...why the hell would you have that dialogue in there? Sure it sounded cool and stuff but why would you completely take me (the audience) out of the show's fantasy atmosphere/mood? Now I'm always going to be telling my television 'shoot him!' every time I see a bad guy/girl.
Also, in and since Angel S4 Wesley whips out two handguns and a shotgun to try and do some damage to The Beast. It looked badass as fu*k when I first watched it, and even more so when I played music over it and played it in slow motion. But the same thing as I said above with regards to Mr. Trick...why don't you just always use guns?
As badass as guns made Wesley, I hated the introduction and use of them.

So those are mine. I showed you mine, now show me yours 😉😵
 
Willow, Xander, Spike, Fred, the inconsistencies and contradictions with the mythology
 
I have less tolerance for Buffy's bullshit now. It's that Buffy's the lead, I'm supposed have her back thing. Nah, to hell with it. Buffy's a bitch. She's brainless. She's ridiculous. And that's OK 'cause she's also heroic and brave and wonderful.

At the same time, all those particularly vile actions of my favorite characters bother me less now to the point where I mostly care about entertainment value, more even, I accept them and embrace them! Buffy tried to feed a vampire with a slayer. It's pretty cool. Willow, like, raped her girlfriend, run a most kills high score attempt and so on and in my opinion, that's awesome. It makes her a better character. Or Anya. One of the most monstrous characters in this franchise, responsible for 1000 years of untold misery and suffering. I'm, like, it's cool. I like Anya, I think she's hilarious. I even like Spike now. I used to hate him. A rapist, killer, poser, wanker, fantasy - but he's entertaining, you know what I mean? So yeah, as long as they're entertaining they can do whatever.

I also care less about lore and consistency and stuff like that. I mean, yeah, shit makes no sense but that's alright, it's not the point of this franchise. Still, I will keep on bitching about it just because but it doesn't piss me off that much anymore.

why don't you just always use guns?

Because it doesn't make sense. You can't kill a vampire with a gun. Guns are loud and intimidating - Scoobies rely on stealth, they want to be viewed as prey because of a surprise factor. Guns are dangerous, far more dangerous to humans than to vampires. Vampire grabs a stake? Sure, it's a problem but nothing too pressing. Vampire grabs a gun? Suddenly, it's a life and death situation. Also, slayers don't exactly need guns - they're strong enough to kill most demons/vampires with a sword/stake so why bother? Too many disadvantages.
 
I have less tolerance for Buffy's bullshit now. It's that Buffy's the lead, I'm supposed have her back thing. Nah, to hell with it. Buffy's a bitch. She's brainless. She's ridiculous. And that's OK 'cause she's also heroic and brave and wonderful.

Because it doesn't make sense. You can't kill a vampire with a gun. Guns are loud and intimidating - Scoobies rely on stealth, they want to be viewed as prey because of a surprise factor. Guns are dangerous, far more dangerous to humans than to vampires. Vampire grabs a stake? Sure, it's a problem but nothing too pressing. Vampire grabs a gun? Suddenly, it's a life and death situation. Also, slayers don't exactly need guns - they're strong enough to kill most demons/vampires with a sword/stake so why bother? Too many disadvantages.

You speak the truth home-slice, but guns still have stopping power which can be used from a safe distance. Guns can also be reloaded and shot from much quicker than lets say a crossbow. For the Scoobies which are not endowed with the strength and skill to beat the vampires, the demons and beat back the rising dark...In a life or death situation, who really cares about being stealthy? (They could use silencers if need be). It may not burst into a cloud of dust but I don't suspect a vampire getting up anytime soon after a bullet to the head. (we can only speculate what kill shots could do to a vampire/demons). And I'm not talking about using a gun in close quarters during a fight/battle, I definitely see the many negatives in that.
My point is, Buffy and Co are involved in a nightly war where they could be killed at anytime. If I had a choice between a going in with a piece of wood or having a side arm on me to use from range before putting myself at risk, I'd choose a gun for the range, reload speed and firing rate.
Regardless, I certainly see your point, but putting myself in the 'good guy' shoes, (Xander is a good example), I rather rely on a hand gun that I could conceal.
 
Skanky Vamp
Skanky Vamp
I am sure one could have easily made wood-tip bullets, also.
The biggie for me is the execution of s7. On the first watch s7 is full of badass moments and great speeches and epic battle. But the more you watch, the more you realize it's all talk no show. The early season use to be about showing the morals, showing the hardship, showing how they overcome battles. S7 is all about gloating and trying to present the season as this one last epic fight, but truth is it's a bit of a mess. The Scoobies are at their stupidess during this season, there is barely any character development, they solve the ending with a stupid deus ex machina resolution. The first was a wasted opportunity, they skipped on the mythology which was by far the most interesting part. There is a lack of team work, and the characters feel like a shell of their former self. S7 is just lazy, and the more I watch, the more you realize they built this season to be epic on the surface, but there's absolutely no deepness to it. I still love the hell out of this season and Chosen is still a great finale, and there are many great points in the season, but compared to the first time I watched that season, I now realize how shallow it is compared to other seasons.
 
Fuffy Baith
Fuffy Baith
Yea I think you're right about that.
Everyone here should know that Bangel irritates me to no end, but it may be a surprise that when I'd first started the series two years ago I'd been slightly into them (hence the Bangel art in my gallery). Yup, it's true, I'm a huge sucker for mushy romance.

There was Connor in AtS. As an infant he was adorable and added a refreshing touch of innocence in the team which is what really brought them together as a family. When he returned as a teenager there were times I honestly wished him dead. Aside from the statutory rape thing with Jasmine/Cordy couldn't he have tried to have an open mind? To the possibility that he'd been raised by a vengeful douche who had kidnapped him and used him as his soldier, to the possibility that Angel wasn't what Holtz told him, at least not anymore, that he loved him and wanted to be a devoted father? To the possibility that Cordy (who was really Jasmine, but I don't hold his lack of consideration there against him since he never really knew the real Cordy) was manipulating him and their "baby" might have been evil? Sheesh!

Returning to BTVS, I'm gonna have to say the entirety of season 7. All of the powerful speeches, Sunnydale going into this eerie 'I am Legend' mode, The First manipulating the Scoobies and Principal Wood connecting back to the second slayer we learned Spike killed were very interesting concepts that had you on the edge of your seat but they had a lot of potential that was wasted. Once you get to that final episode, all of that ends up being a lot of build up to nothing. That final battle was very anti-climactic. They take out an army of ubervamps...or rather Spike does and...that's it. They break into their Dora the Explorer 'we did it' number. What? What happened to The First? It kinda got ignored after Buffy killed the priest it was acting through. I know it wasn't supposed to be ultimately defeated at that point since it had to switch over to AtS, but come on?! At least transition it properly; for example having it take off after the Scooby/Slayer army faces it and fails or at least have the characters acknowledge that it's still out there and show concern(not to mention how about taking Giles pointing out the other Hellmouth in Cleveland a bit more seriously?) rather than celebrating a victory that wasn't really much of one!
Also after at least three seasons of the whole Xander/Anya relationship, especially after the engagement was broken off when there was pretty significant highlight of the fact that Xander was still deeply in love with her, not to mention how dead set against Buffy slaying her for the fraternity vengeance he was, how is it that he brushed off her death pretty easily with just a 'good for her' because it was noble? 😛 I was never the least bit into them, but that was still a bit of a letdown.
It just really left me disappointed, though I knew to expect that because I'd been told the final battle in AtS is far better.
 
Everyone here should know that Bangel irritates me to no end, but it may be a surprise that when I'd first started the series two years ago I'd been slightly into them (hence the Bangel art in my gallery). Yup, it's true, I'm a huge sucker for mushy romance.

They take out an army of ubervamps...or rather Spike does and...that's it.
It just really left me disappointed, though I knew to expect that because I'd been told the final battle in AtS is far better.

Yeah, that 'I Win' amulet really pissed me off for so many reasons, from what it did to the way it worked. Plus their preparation for their 'final battle' left so much more to be desired.
 
Yeah, that 'I Win' amulet really pissed me off for so many reasons, from what it did to the way it worked. Plus their preparation for their 'final battle' left so much more to be desired.
Very true, after all that preparation with the potential slayer army, all the injuries and casualties they suffered all that was really necessary was for them to put an amulet on Spike? That basically sums up the nothing that came out of all that dramatic build up.

To be honest, I actually missed how the amulet worked and why it was Spike that needed to use it, probably because I was too focused on how the tone of Angel's voice and that "You're so gonna lose" line were very off to me, Angelus like even. If memory serves this was right after they'd defeated Jasmine right? So it's likely he was still in a funk over Cordy's condition, possibly also from having to give up Connor if that had happened yet.
 
I actually missed how the amulet worked and why it was Spike that needed to use it
At risk of sounding like Aerosmith I dont think you missed a thing. It was never really explained how the amulet worked or why or if a vampire needed to wear it.
 
At risk of sounding like Aerosmith I dont think you missed a thing. It was never really explained how the amulet worked or why or if a vampire needed to wear it.
Ah, not surprising. LOL, nice reference! I happen to love that song!
 
To be honest, I actually missed how the amulet worked and why it was Spike that needed to use it
Well even Amel said they didn't really have time to research it properly cause the translation want clear. But it says that is to be worn by someone more than human ie. Vampire, but who had a soul. So either Spike or Angel. And even in s5 of Angel is never really clear if it was meant to be worn by him or Spike.
 
Well even Amel said they didn't really have time to research it properly cause the translation want clear. But it says that is to be worn by someone more than human ie. Vampire, but who had a soul. So either Spike or Angel. And even in s5 of Angel is never really clear if it was meant to be worn by him or Spike.

Right, in the few episodes I watched today of AtS season 5 it's clarified that not much is comprehendible about the amulet and introduced the theory that it was Angel who'd been meant to use it after it had mysteriously wound up back in his possession with Spike's soul attached to it, but he hadn't offered because he'd lost interest in helping Buffy when he found out she'd been in a relationship with Spike.
 
Fuffy Baith
Fuffy Baith
Yea. Then later on Eve mentions that it might have been for Spike. Also Buffy tells Angel to leave, not cause he wanted to.
Very true, after all that preparation with the potential slayer army, all the injuries and casualties they suffered all that was really necessary was for them to put an amulet on Spike? That basically sums up the nothing that came out of all that dramatic build up.

To be honest, I actually missed how the amulet worked and why it was Spike that needed to use it, probably because I was too focused on how the tone of Angel's voice and that "You're so gonna lose" line were very off to me, Angelus like even. If memory serves this was right after they'd defeated Jasmine right? So it's likely he was still in a funk over Cordy's condition, possibly also from having to give up Connor if that had happened yet.

As I recall it was right after he killed Connor, and wiped the memories of all team. So, yeah, really didn't get it.
The amulet was such a deux ex machina it was ridiculous. I figure Spike wore it because magical amulets to be used in emergencies to destroy huge forces very seldom leave the bearer alive. Like Buffy jumping off the tower, he could save the world at the same time that he got to die. 
Well even Amel said they didn't really have time to research it properly cause the translation want clear. But it says that is to be worn by someone more than human ie. Vampire, but who had a soul. So either Spike or Angel. And even in s5 of Angel is never really clear if it was meant to be worn by him or Spike.

Or Buffy, or Faith, or any of the potentials once they were turned into slayers.

I have to say it always bugged me the way both Angel and Buffy immediately agreed that they couldn't risk each other. Just kinsa squicky.😵
 
I pretty much used to love Buffy unconditionally. I mean I still love her character but there are a lot of things about her that didn't bother me before that bothers me now.
Back when I first watched the show I did actually really like Spuffy. It's only with re-watches that it has started to bug me to no end.
Also, completely opposite to Evil UU, I actually think that the lore and inconsistencies it probably pisses me off a lot more now than it did before! I'm not 100% sure why, maybe because I feel like they're trying too hard to keep the verse alive I guess...

🙂
 
bespangeled said:
As I recall it was right after he killed Connor, and wiped the memories of all team.
He didn't kill Connor, he rewrote his life so that he was born into a normal family and was given his childhood back.

I figure Spike wore it because magical amulets to be used in emergencies to destroy huge forces very seldom leave the bearer alive. Like Buffy jumping off the tower, he could save the world at the same time that he got to die.
Judging by his initial displeasure with being brought back, it would seem that you're right, that it was a suicide mission, but there isn't a clear reason for his desire for it. Especially considering that once he'd come to terms with being back the first thing he wanted to do was see Buffy.

bespangeled said:
I have to say it always bugged me the way both Angel and Buffy immediately agreed that they couldn't risk each other. Just kinsa squicky.😵

Squicky? I've never heard that one before, lol.
Not to mention not a minute later they're basically giving each other the kiss off after she reveals her relationship with Spike to him. 😛
 
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Judging by his initial displeasure with being brought back, it would seem that it was a suicide mission, but there isn't a clear reason for his desire for it. Especially considering that once he'd come to terms with being back the first thing he wanted to do was see Buffy.



Squicky? I've never heard that one before, lol.
Not to mention not a minute later they're basically giving each other the kiss off after she reveals her relationship with Spike to him. 😛

Well, he did cut Connor's throat, so technically he killed him. That really had to have some impact even though he gave him a new life...which meant Connor was functionally dead to Angel. That should have shown in some ways.

I think Spike was in the early stages of getting used to having a soul, knew everyone hated him, hated himself, and the only structure in his life was Buffy. Suicide solved it all - saving the world is a great exit.

Yeah - that was fan service, which is okay - but it was really bad fan service. Instead of heartwarming it was....sort of random and kinda squicky 😀
 
Yeah - that was fan service, which is okay - but it was really bad fan service. Instead of heartwarming it was....sort of random and kinda squicky 😀
It bugged the hell out of me that he kissed her and was jealous that Spike had her heart when he'd fallen for Cordy pretty hard and she'd just barely been in a coma for a few weeks, he had then JUST stopped Connor from blowing her up. But whatever.
 
It bugged the hell out of me that he kissed her and was jealous that Spike had her heart when he'd fallen for Cordy pretty hard and she'd just barely been in a coma for a few weeks, he had then JUST stopped Connor from blowing her up. But whatever.

Yeah - but I've had problems all along with the lack of honesty in their relationship as the shows diverged. I mean Buffy has no idea about Connor, the kidnapping, Angel's ocean adventure, Jasmine. the deal with the devil and the fact that Angel is taking over an evil law firm. It sorta reminds me of Angel, before he explained how he tortured Dru, asking Buffy if she loved him and trusted him. It was a siren screaming 'YOU ARE ABOUT TO EXPERIENCE SEVERE EMOTIONAL MANIPULATION - Please grab your mask and put your head between your legs!"

I would have preferred to see Angel harried and tired. He didn't have to launch in a monologue about his life, but this cheerful, peppy, 'will I always be your one true love' just rang wrong, and in the worst way.
 
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