Soul Mates

white avenger

white avenger

white avenger
Joined
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rome, georgia
Whenever the subject of whether or not Buffy and Angel are fated to be together ultimately, one of the main arguments is that they are "soul mates," as though that ends the entire argument (Bear with me, this is NOT another Spuffy/Bangel ship war, or any other ship war in and of itself) My question is, does the existence of a pair of soul mates guarantee any sort of happy ending in the Buffyverse? Most of us would agree that Willow and Tara were soul mates, and likewise Xander and Anya. Giles and Jenny might also fit into the category, though their relationship never really had a chance to develop properly.

My point is, Joss Whedon seems to take actual pleasure in establishing these "once in a lifetime" relationships, then when we least expect it, destroying them. So, this is finally my question. Why does Joss keep mating these people, then destroying the relationships?

(Personally, I think it's because he's an evil, perverse little man who takes pleasure in dashing the hopes of his fans)
 
That's a damn fine question & I'm pretty sure I don't have an answer. I think that loss makes for good drama & the closer two characters are, the more it hurts & the bigger impact it has when you kill one of them. I think to like Joss Whedon's work is to like (at least a little) to be hurt, to feel pain. What was it the first Slayer said, "Love is pain". I think that's something Joss believes & I think that's why it comes up a lot in his work. I remember when Dr Horrible came out, after the third act I spent a lot of time online discussing what had happened (I'm trying my best not to be spoiler-y here) & I remember someone on the Dr H forum I was on saying something like, "Why do I keep letting Joss hurt me like this". We have a bit of a sado-masochistic relationship with the work of Mr Whedon, he hurts us & we keep coming back for more, we think 'this time it'll be different, this time it will all work out', but it never does. As I said, I can't really answer why this is such a prevalent occurence in the Whedonverse, only Joss can do that, but we all need to ask ourselves why we keep eating it up.
 
Ratings...its harder to look away from a train wreck than it is to a fully functional train.

---------- Post added at 08:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:17 PM ----------

Why fix something that seems to work fine
 
P
pieceofgosa
I agree, in part. To do it so many times though, is he that much of a hack?
Yeah, I have to say Jenny Calender and Angels deaths were really tragically beautiful. Then Tara bought it and I was just pissed, then Anya's seemingly random death. Spike, Doyle, Fred, Red-haired dude in Serenity, chick from Dr. Horrible. I get that deathy drama = ratings...but it's become so common place in his work that I'm surprised when they don't die.
 
My question is, does the existence of a pair of soul mates guarantee any sort of happy ending in the Buffyverse?
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Short answer? No. If any two people were "soul mates" in the Buffyverse it was Willow and Tara. Look what happened with them. In terms of B/A, them being soul mates doesn't guarantee they'll end up happy together, although I'm sure the Bangels would like to think so.

Long answer? I'll have to return another time for that, once I collect my thoughts 🙂
 
Perhaps what Whedon wants to do is excactly that: To prove that the romantic concept of "soul mates" is no guarantee for happiness.

To quote Denis Leary: "Happiness comes in small doses folks. It's a cigarette butt, or a chocolate chip cookie or a five second orgasm. You come, you smoke the butt you eat the cookie you go to sleep wake up and go back to ****ing work the next morning, THAT'S IT! End of ****ing list!"

Too many couples crumble because too many people believe that it is possible to meet a soul mate who will make you happy every flippin' moment for the rest of your life.
 
I think he does it because he has a story to tell. And it's not about puppies and butterflies. It's about something that's real.

So no, not unless proven do I believe he's evil, and it's not right of you to accuse him of being sadistic white avenger. He builds up loves, and he tears them down, but never sadisticly. He does it realisticly, while one stable relationship would be nice, like I said, his stories are meant to be real, not nice fairytales were everything works out. He gave us beauty, then he showed us the backside of beauty, and you know what, the backside of beauty isn't that bad either. He gave us a beautiful(as in strong) heroin but put her through heartache after heartache. And while that made my stomack turn, I donä't watch Buffy because it's a feel good show. I'm not saying you do either, but it sounds like you expect relationships to thrive when the people who are in them are living on a Hellmouth, facing death every tuesday, while being tempted by all sorts of evil.

They're just people, and people fail. Joss gets that.

That might have been a bit more preachy than I intended, but I don't like you calling a guy you've never meet, evil.
 
We all have our belifes. Some of us truly belive soul mates exist, some of us don't. It's all about what we saw happening around us, what we learned in our lives and what we felt on our own skin.

Trough years Joss created one incredible show, that was totally different from some other show. Actually, other shows are very uncovered. In most of them we know what will happen, we know who'll get a happy ending, and who will not, because that's what people buy, and that's what sells. People like to see happy endings, because everyone likes feeling happy rather then sad. Joss created something else. He created this perfect relathionships, great material for everlasting happines, and then he put one big fat bomb in a middle of it and blew it all up. Joss created reality on tv. Because, let's be honest, most of the things we see on tv are not going to happen, can't happen or there is a small chance that they'll really happen. Tv shows and movies show us what we want to see, because it gives us hope and we try to convice us that is reality.
 
I don't think that Giles and Jenny were soulmates. Most of their interactions involved light flirting and her trying to get a rise out of him (making him think she damaged his father's book, taking him to a Monster Trucks show). They might have become something had she lived but with what we were given I couldn't call them anything more than a missed romantic opportunity. She kept something huge from him and when he found out he sided with Buffy and wouldn't give Jenny a chance until he knew his Slayer was okay with it.

I have many issues with Tara/Willow. They didn't have any bumps in their relationship until Tough Love and that was because Tara questioned Willow for the first time. Tara stood up for herself and stopped idolizing Willow in S6 and it lead to getting her memory erased by Willow. I think that Willow did love Tara but it was clear she disagreed with Tara's entire world philosophy and ethical code. Watch their different take on resurrection in Forever when Dawn asks them to bring back Joyce.

Xander/Anya was fun to watch but the fact that she would actually wish that he be brutally tortured and killed after he called off the wedding makes me question her true feelings for him. If she truly loved him just the fact that he didn't want to get married out of fear of becoming like his abusive alcoholic father wouldn't be enough to do what she did. And then in S7 they just went stale. Somehow the spark was gone. They had no reason not to get back together, slept together twice, but they just fizzled. And now he is "in love" with Dawn.
 
I don't believe in soul mates as a romantic notion. I think it's possible that maybe there is some sort of reincarnation, maybe we know people from "before." Or maybe not. But I don't believe in some grand, meant-to-be love. Love is as much action is it emotion. Joss seems to enjoy taking happy couples apart. I don't know why, but I've come to expect it. So maybe that means it's good news for me that Angel and Buffy are supposedly "soul mates." Maybe it means they're less likely to end up together in Joss's world, which would be lovely.
 
I think soul mates don't always end up together. Actually, I hardly believe in soul mates thingy. It's just "you meet someone and you like them or not" for me.

About Joss, I don't mind him destroying most of the relationships. I just don't like that he might just wanna make great memorable cry-worthy scenes by killing off those characters. Plus, why Buffy lovers died and always came back? Why not Willow's lover and Xander's? 😛 Poor Xander that his girls all died, except
Dawn
. If she dies, I'm gonna write some threaten letter to Joss. ^_^
 
I find 'soul mates' an strange term. I don't really believe in them but I do think that there is one person who 'gets' you in ways that no one else does. Some people are lucky enough to meet them and some of them aren't. and for the record, In some ways I actually think its more about friendship rather than love and the even luckier people fall in love and have a happy relationship with them but it doesn't always go that way. Dawson and Joey are soul mates, they both said so themselves. It will always be them together but only as friends. And I find that just as satisfying as Lucas and Peyton who are 'soul mates' and in love. Both of these are firmly rooted in friendship and that's why they work.

So while I do think Buffy found the person who 'gets' them better than anyone else and they found that person in each other, I don't think its why they should be together, or the only reason why I think they'll end up with each other.

As to why Joss insists on destroying them? I don't know. I used to find it admirable and challenging but now I find it conventional. I don't think it has any bearing on his attitudes towards relationships or soul mates etc, just that it worked well before and so he'll stick with it.
 
It's what I call a Whedon cliche. Happy couples, then they fight, then they get back together, then they break up or die. I've yet to see him write a fully happy relationship that doesn't end badly. It add drama but it also irritates me a lot. As for soul mates, I don't personally believe in them, but couples who I feel have that strong unbreakable connection would be Xander and Buffy. If soul mates exist they can be friends too, and I think those two are it. 🙂
 
I do believe in soul mates. I can't say if I haven't found any yet, but I somehow do believe they exist. Sometimes, I believe that there can be more than one soulmate. This is a thought I have had lately.

Anyway, for me, if anyone is Buffy's soulmate that would be Angel.

I generally see soulmates as two people who complement each other perfectly. They don't have to have many things in common. They could be totally different. And yet I believe there is a person who understands you greatly, who loves you for the person you are, accepts you as you are. And maybe when you are with that person, it has such power that you feel he/she is the one for you.

Why Joss wants to destroy happiness? I really don't know! I guess he wants to make his story more interesting?He doesn't want to be the "happy ending guy". Is he a sadist? Every time we saw someone really, truly happy in the verse ended up dead. Angel lost his soul due to happiness and we all know what happened in the end of s2, Tara died just when her and Willow reconciled, Fred died when her and Wesley ended up together...beautiful stories with tragic ends.
 
If we are looking at Buffy and Angel here I think their story is very similar to the ones told in Irish Mythology. Tristand and Isolde, à“isà­n and Niamh, Deirdre of the Sorrows, Cú Chulainn...the list goes on. Each of these myths centres on the notion of "soul mates" and supreme tragedy and sacrifice. The people involved are heroes, champions and the measure of their love is weighed by how much they can endure, either together or apart, and still love one another.

I think soul mates can exist, I think it is supremely rare and being able to live happily with that person is rarer still. So I don't think Whedon is doing anything especially new with these romances. I would also argue that the only soul mates we have been in the Whedonverse is Buffy/Angel and Victor/Sierra.

Joan said:
In terms of B/A, them being soul mates doesn't guarantee they'll end up happy together, although I'm sure the Bangels would like to think so.
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Not at all actually. I don't for a second believe Buffy and Angel are going to be handed any kind of future simply because they have been canonically established as soul mates. What you'll actually find with the majority of Bangel shippers is that reaffrimation of their love and bond is what we wanted.
 
Kean said:
I would also argue that the only soul mates we have been in the Whedonverse is Buffy/Angel and Victor/Sierra.
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See, this is interesting because when I posted earlier my more preferable 'soul mate' relationship was Echo/Paul.
 
Flannen said:
See, this is interesting because when I posted earlier my more preferable 'soul mate' relationship was Echo/Paul.
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I could make a point for Echo/Paul too, I'd forgotten about them.

Victor/Sierra was made abundantly clear though, IMO. No matter how many times they were wiped and imprinted, they loved each other. I think of a finer example than that.
 
Flannen
Flannen
Oh yeah, don't get me wrong, I do agree with you. It's just that Echo/Paul sprang to mind first.
I think if anything, soul mates guarantees a horribly ever after.

I think, aside from whatever characters you prefer together there is usually a "soul mate" for that character, and that kinda goes for any show.

In my opinion on Buffy they were
Buffy and Angel
Willow and Tara
Xander and Anya
Giles and Jenny

Their THE relationships, like the Ross and Rachel of Buffy, they may move on but in the big picture they are the ones that are meant to be together.

Basically they are the bigger relationships, so the bigger they are the harder they fall, and you create so much more power by tearing them apart.

Each one has a big event to end it (like a series finale).

I know some people probably think Spike should be up there, but IMO he shouldn't be, as I don't think there was ever anything like a soulmate attached to their relationship (it may have gone on to be there, but it wasn't in what we got)

I think what makes it that soulmate like relationship on TV, is ones that are recognized outside of the show, like everyone knows Ross and Rachel from Friends, even if you didn't watch it. Buffy is always linked to Angel outside of the show, like people that didn't watch Buffy would probably answer a question "Who was Buffys soulmate" with Angel, if it were ever asked.
 
Black Eye Guy said:
I know some people probably think Spike should be up there, but IMO he shouldn't be, as I don't think there was ever anything like a soulmate attached to their relationship (it may have gone on to be there, but it wasn't in what we got)

.
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Actually, that just might be considered good news for Spike fans. It means that he has a better than average chance of surviving. (Now, if it's Angel who winds up biting the bullet again and not Buffy...)
 
Black Eye Guy
Black Eye Guy
Thats very true, lol!
Kean said:
I could make a point for Echo/Paul too, I'd forgotten about them.

Victor/Sierra was made abundantly clear though, IMO. No matter how many times they were wiped and imprinted, they loved each other. I think of a finer example than that.
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I agree about Sierra/Victor, definitely. I do believe thought that Willow and Tara were perfect for each other as well.

I don't necessarily believe that Buffy and Spike were, because I'm not so sure if I even believe in this whole soul mate thing - but if any two people were perfect for each other, it was them.

Buffy and Angel? Yeah, they're soul mates, or whatever. According to Joss Whedon. They're drawn to each other, they're still in love, always will be. Will it end badly? Probably. This is Joss Whedon we're talking about. We have to remember that. All this that has happened with Bangel recently is just throwing us off-track. Something bad is about to happen. Be ready for it.

And Kean, I agree about the comparison to Tristram and Isolde. I've said before that I think a lot of Buffy's story is based in mythology.
 
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