Soul vs. Chip

[Tueuse de Vampires]

What is a worse punishment for a vampire, a soul or a chip?
A chip means you can't bite (or hurt in general) anyone, although you want it so badly ad wouldn't have any regrets (maybe like having cold Turkey when you get off drugs), a soul on the other side means you are free to hurt and bite as much as you want, only problem is you might actually feel the consequences of your doing.

So what do you think is harder for a vampire to bear?

 

[Blackloliita]

I think it's the soul, 'cause when you have a soul you are in same position as with chip almost but than worser. Since you also can't bite anyone (though you'd like to probably), because the "pain" you'd have inside is as worse as that you can't eat + you feel like hooole your life kind of "depressif" caused by the "pain" you know inside of your past victims when you didn't have soul yet (taking Angel as example).

 

[Ripper 08]

i think having a chip would be worse becuase it would give you physical pain everytime you tried to bite or hurt a walking happy meal (human). a soul would provide an emotional pain everytime you ate or hurt a walking happy meal and i think over time they would find the emotional pain as easy to deal with as being a vampire.a soul doesn't physically stop you from inflicting pain or death where-as the chip would.

as much as emotional pain can be worse than physical pain i think in this case the soul and emotional pain may not be enough. it may change a vampire to becoming good like angel but he still sired someone to save the submerine and drank from some dead guy in a dinner (i no a chip would have no effect here as he's dead but a soul didn't stop that either,you would think a soul would stop this as you are disrespecting a dead body something not easy to be done without remorse.)

so in this case i think it would be worse for a vamp to live with a chip.

i look forward to hearing your opinions and hope all that made sense

 

[Kemy]

The chip wiggles, shocks the Vampire when it attacks, but thats it.

The Soul is a non-stop torment that causes immeasurable grief day and night.

 

[sk]

I would say soul.

Me thinking it was a reason that they gypsies gave Angel a soul and not a chip (or something to that affect)
It seems to me that they knew their stuff. And a soul would be the worse punishment.

/SK

 

[Washburne]

only problem is you might actually feel the consequences of your doing.

Might? I´m with Kemy on this one. Soul is way worse.

Me thinking it was a reason that they gypsies gave Angel a soul and not a chip (or something to that affect)

I think we have to go with "something to that effect". Don´t think they had many chips then they gave Angel his soul.

 

[Fake Shemp]

chip, a souls a pesky thing and people and demons with souls do far worse things.... so if its killing you enjoy then the chip

 

[white avenger]

The chip fires and causes actual physical pain any time that the vampire intentionally tries to harm a human. A soul merely gives, apparently, a knowledge of right and wrong and a sense of conscience. Since mass murderers, rapists, child molesters, and others of their ilk have souls and still commit their crimes with little or no feelings of guilt or regret, it would appear that a soul only serves as a restraint if the individual vampire's personality would cause it to.

The chip fires consistently, and the soul doesn't, I would have to say that the chip is a greater punishment.

 

[Kemy]

Spike had the Chip in his head for years and acted more or less the same as ever, just as evil and harboured thoughts about killing everyone of them. It took an attempted violent rape of the woman he loved before he even thought of changing for the better.

He got a Soul and within weeks he went mad and tried to cut out his out heart to make the grief stop. Only then did he feel the full weight of every life he took, every wrong action.

Angel still feels the sting of his guilt daily after over 100 years of living with his Soul. Darla changed her ways after 400 years of maiming and killing the moment Connor's Soul connected with her.

Seems a pretty powerful thing.

 

[Lindsey McDonald]

Spike had the Chip in his head for years and acted more or less the same as ever, just as evil and harboured thoughts about killing everyone of them. It took an attempted violent rape of the woman he loved before he even thought of changing for the better.

He got a Soul and within weeks he went mad and tried to cut out his out heart to make the grief stop. Only then did he feel the full weight of every life he took, every wrong action.

Angel still feels the sting of his guilt daily after over 100 years of living with his Soul. Darla changed her ways after 400 years of maiming and killing the moment Connor's Soul connected with her.

Seems a pretty powerful thing.

It is. But remember, William was a mommy's boy poet, Liam was a layabout and a drunk, and Darla was a disillusioned prostitute. They were bound to be torn up after what they had done. A mass murderer or sociopath beforehand, however, might not care a jot. The chip is the only consistent punishment, and is therefore much more reliable as a punishment. The soul might inflict twice the pain, but it might not do anything at all.

 

[Veyron]

For me I'd have to say that soul would be worse - it's part of your concious decision making process. If you do something wrong mostly you feel some form of guilt afterward (unless you're psychotic, deranged or simply just mad - or all three... You guys understand where I'm going with that analogy right?). And that guilt can stay with you for a long time - of course it depends on your view point as far as morality is concerned - some people's guilt lasts a few seconds, some a few hours, some days, weeks, months, years - some never goes away - it's all dependant on your personality and your point of view in regard to human life and humanity in general.

I'd say that a vampire with a soul would be eternally tormented by the people s/he's killed. Imagine going to sleep and dreaming about the countless number of people you've killed night after night - it would drive you up the wall.

If it were me as a vamp that was given the choice - chip or soul to stop me being a ruthless killer I'd go for the chip and surviving on animal blood to survive, there's no way I could handle the guilt that my restored soul would be giving me. If restoration of my soul was the only option and I couldn't handle the guilt I was feeling I'd find a way out - self stake!

 

[Kemy]

Well in that case, a Soul would be a greater torment for a Vampire that was more of a 'normal' person before it was sired.

A Chip would be better for a Vampire that wasn't exactly ruled by a conscience before it was turned.

 

[T.I.P]

I think a chip would be worse, because your still evil but cant even feed, except from little blood packets, and that must be the ultimate torture for an evil vamp. But a soul would only be as bad depending on the vampire that got it, and at least with a soul you can put your torture down to the fact it was an evil alter ego and not the new souled version, and at least you can try to make up for your sins by helping people.

 

[caitaintdead]

I think the important thing to remember is that people with souls do horrible things every day. Also having a soul doesn't seem the sturdiest treatment in the world (Angel has lost the plot many a time). I would look at it as a similarity between sending a murderer to jail, or sending a murderer to a psychologist. Sure if the murderer realises what he's done is wrong he will feel guilt forever, but in jail he will never be able to hurt again.
Also, Spike escaped from the initiative, so we don't exactly know what their plans were regarding the chipped vampires. They obviously had no intention of just letting them free, so maybe there was meant to be some sort of extra program to go through before being aloud to roam free. hehe, maybe they wanted to integrate them into the real world like at the end of Shaun of the Dead!!!

 

[Buffanator]

The chip fires and causes actual physical pain any time that the vampire intentionally tries to harm a human. A soul merely gives, apparently, a knowledge of right and wrong and a sense of conscience. Since mass murderers, rapists, child molesters, and others of their ilk have souls and still commit their crimes with little or no feelings of guilt or regret, it would appear that a soul only serves as a restraint if the individual vampire's personality would cause it to.

The chip fires consistently, and the soul doesn't, I would have to say that the chip is a greater punishment.

I completely agree. After all, we only know how Angel & Spike handled their soul... there were no other vampires to judge a soul by. The chip obviously caused enough pain to Spike that he even stopped attempting to *eat*. But what if a vampire had a soul that didn't matter to him/her? Such as a serial killer or mass murderer or whatever? Someone with a soul who didn't mind killing in the first place... I don't think getting a soul as a vampire would make a difference to them.

*SPECIAL NOTE* remember in Ats the little boy that was inhabited by a demon? ... the demon FOUGHT to get OUT of the little boy. Because he was just so *wicked* - he didn't care about his mom, dad or sister. He was possessed by a demon & it didn't make any difference when the demon was freed. He was still a "menace" even without the demon.

So I agree with W.A. - the chip is worse. Only not to Angel or Spike, because, well, they're our heroes. 😀

 

[palabravampiress]

^ Gah. That animation is distracting. lol.

I think I have to agree that the severity of punishment depends on the temperament of the individual and/or the quality of the soul prior to turning. For most normal people, including mama's boys, prostitutes, and drunks, a soul seems to inflict more pain than a chip, as most normal humans have an innate abhorrence of violence, murder, and cannibalism. This notion is somewhat tested by Spike, though, as Spike did seem to suffer heartily (to the point of near-suicide) upon initial exposure to both methods, but he also seemed to adapt and adjust to both rather readily. It is possible that chips and souls alike can be integrated in a manner and at a speed that is determined by the individual's character rather than by any other force. If that is the case, then the suffering that is inflicted by the chip would be every bit as variable as the suffering that is inflicted by the soul.

So far, we have considered only "normal" people. What if someone like Drusilla, who is clearly mad, were afflicted with either a chip or a soul? Would she even notice? A chip is based on intention and a soul is based on remorse for conscious actions, and I'm not sure Drusilla's got enough lights on upstairs to even form a coherent intention or to perform much in the way of conscious action. What if someone like Lilah, who chose evil in life but rarely did anything directly harmful, were afflicted with either a soul or a chip? Would it change anything at all? And like Buffanator said, what if someone like that little soulless boy from AtS was to be afflicted with either a chip or a soul? Is the intention of a soulless human by default harmful or evil enough to set off a chip or a soul, or is it just empty and/or neutral -- like a machine devoid of any real feeling or understanding? Because of cases like these, I think it is impossible to say for certain which punishment is worse. I think one might be worse for some, the other might be worse for some more, and that either might be equally useless in the remaining population.

 

[Kana]

Another interesting element is how the soul and chip changes the nature of the vampire. We are focusing so strongly on the idea of the soul being a punishment but the soul can also provide a vampire with positive feelings if they are to do the right thing.

The chip doesn't seem to serve this function as it only punishes for the negative actions rather than reward for the positive, or does it?

Is it possible that Spike's behaviour was modified by the chip? Like soulled beings he simply saw the benefit of acting differently. Maybe this is like Angel. He tried to go back to his evil ways but found emotionally he was unable to and even found himself to find meaning in positive actions.

Arguing egoism aside it's difficult to define a nature of vampire so readily and of course defining the soul is a task and half. We're still assuming that the soul is a conscience when it has been sometimes represented in the show as the essence of who you are (See Giles original vampire model and most of Shells for support) so where does this leave us? Someone mentioned before about the rationalization of blaming your alter ego. Under the original theory this is literally true. Angel and Spike didn't commit the crimes of their evil counterparts, yet they still seem to feel mental anguish whether they are responsible or not. It also complicates our question because when are talking about suffering, are talking about William or Spike? Liam or Angelus?

Ok for simplicities sake let us assume we talking about the soul as conscience. Let's also facilitate the debate by side stepping the whole "Well, what does it actually mean to have metaphysically removable conscience. I might have said that perhaps the chip may be overall worse, altough as Palabra and many others have said, it may depend on the vampire. The reason being is because I'd say it would be easier to reconcile the remnants of humanity (that all vamps have depsite what the Judge says) with the soul that goes with it. If vampire in question had a chip it conflicts mainly with the general nature of the being. The synergy may be harder to acheive, however a vamp as adaptable as Spike or a vamp as contemplative as Angel(us) may turn this on it's head. As debatable as the nature of a vampire is (something I'd argue to the end as believe in changing states as well) suffering can have so many definitions, depending not only psychological make up but the type of ideologies you've grown with (yes Angel I'm looking at you.), so we have virtually infinite permutations to contend with before we answer the qeustion at hand.

 

[MSchett]

I think Spike and Angel with souls arent killer vamps still is because before they were vampires they werent killers at all. But id say if a vamp who was corrupted before he was a vamp got his soul back hed still kill

 

[slayerpower]

I would say the chip is worse. Vampires love to drink humans, but the chip doesn't allow them to do that. Imagine if you weren't able to do the one thing you love.

 

[Relic]

Here is my guess based off of everyone elses hard work and thinkin'....

I think getting the soul back might be worse....it punishes both the human and the vampire. The human, if he/she is good, would be left like Angel with guilt over what he/she had done. Meanwhile, If my guess is right from what Angel said in season two's "Dark Age" the demon is stuck in a 'limbo' with a view, seeing everything that the goody two shoes mortal is doing (they are stuck inside) and having no outlet for havok....similar to the behavior that can be forced on the monster by a chip, but with double the punishment of regretted actions brought on by the curse and its effect of the 'persons' memory of what they had done as a vampire.


If, like some have allready said, the soul is just as wicked as the demon, a curse is not a punishment at all, short of a blow to the monsters ego. Yet, that would still be a punishmet, at least on some level. Since the demon would be second fiddel to the human- well, as long as it is aware of that, in a way I think thats still a punishment to the vampire, and kind of like being in jail.

The chip still leaves the deamon with some amount of control, although the intent is to modify the behavior, unlike a curse where its getting its essence displaced by the very soul it once enslaved/replaced ; It is denied of any control at all, and is left powerless.

Also,I'm not sure the chip would be double punishment (although I'll admit the whole limbo with a view is just a guess, might not be double punishment either.) When Angel gets his soul back, he doesn't remeber all the bad things he's done as Angelus right away. If a vampire gets chipped he's still a vampire, not this duel soul thing. The human side is not really there, thus no double punishment.

Thats why I'd never mess with a gypsy, they aren't concerned with justice or behavior modification, the just want to bring the woe untill you say whoa...and then they still keep bringing it.