Souled Spike prophesied, before Angel!

T

Tsquared

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I don't know if this has been discussed before, but after rewatching "Villains", I believe Spike's ensoulment was prophesied before Angel.

Screenshot here.

This is of course when Spike enters the cave and sheds light on the cave paintings. So, do you guys think Spike was prophesied before Angel? I'm no expert, but African cave drawings certainly do seem to out date any scrolls or other prophecies we've seen that pertained to Angel/Angelus. That particular amazing work of art also looked strikingly similar to the final scene of "Grave" (Spike actually receiving his soul). Now, unless there is another unknown vampire who went on the same quest AND managed to survive the same trials as Spike, then maybe I'm wrong. I don't think there is though!

Thoughts?
 
hmm, I have never seen those cave drawings as a prophecy.

More like general information, warning or instructions of sort... this is what will happend if you enter this cave kinda thing.
It's not necessary that anyone else done the same thing and survived as Spike did. Probably painted by some ancient people who knew what was going on inside that cave.

/SK
 
sk73 said:
hmm, I have never seen those cave drawings as a prophecy.

More like general information, warning or instructions of sort... this is what will happend if you enter this cave kinda thing.
It's not necessary that anyone else done the same thing and survived as Spike did. Probably painted by some ancient people who knew what was going on inside that cave.

/SK
Click to expand...

Me tooooooo.

nowthispostis20characters
 
I see two figures, one of whom might be stabbing or staking the other, but the one being staked seems to be bleeding, something that vampires don't do in the Buffyverse when they are staked. So I don't think that that cave drawing pertains to Spike. Having said that, however, it would be a safe assumption that the First Evil predated any scroll, painting, or cave drawing, and it tried very hard to get Angel to destroy himself in Season 3 in one single episode, then never bothered him again. But, as soon as, or maybe even before (which might explain how a Spike, in his deranged state managed to get all the way back to Sunnydale) Spike returned to Sunnydale, it launched season long campaign to either use Spike for its own purposes or have Buffy kill him. Coincidence, or did the First Evil know in advance that a vampire with a soul would be instrumental in either helping it in itsplan to conquer the world, or would be instrumental in bringing about its defeat. (Sounds kinda like another prophecy about a vampire with a soul, doesn't it? Only without any promise about being receiving their humanity for services rendered.

Whether the cave drawings in question have anything to do with Spike or not, it's pretty obvious that the First Evil had some very specific plans for a vampire with a soul, and it knowing in advance that that ensouled vampire would be pivotal to its plans of world conquest would be a good explanation as to just why that might be. It might also explain why the actual final destruction of Sunnydale didn't begin until AFTER Buffy and Spike's burning hand clasp and her words, "I love you..." if her admission of those feelings were what was actually required to finally seal the hellmouth.

So maybe there actually was some sort of prophesy about a vampire with a soul and the Last Guardian Of The Hellmouth, who would join forces to defeat the First Evil and bring about the destruction of the hellmouth, and F E, like Sahjahn, tried to manipulate or defeat that prophesy, only to fail and go down in defeat.
 
T
Tsquared
Interesting! :)
It's probably like in "The Trial." The guy running that operation was pretty clear that there had been others who tried to go through his set of tests, but he also said Angel was the only one he had ever seen to survive the first ordeal and reach the second.
 
I don't think so.

That cave drawing is of Willow killing Warren, since it would have taken Spike ages to get to Africa, the timeline is well after Willow has gone evil.

I can't remember but there are other drawings too and their all of Willow. Then in Season 7, when Willow summons D'Hoffern he names the demon and says it has a paining of it on it's wall, and that little period of hers is watercooler talk amongst Vengeance demons.

Could that make the demons spike got his soul from some sort of vengence demon? He did say Buffy was going to get what he deserved, sounds vengency to me...
 
T
Tsquared
Hmm, I definitely don't think it's Willow BEG! Didn't the seers already prophecise her rise?
white avenger
white avenger
They prefer the term "Justice" Demon.
sk73 said:
hmm, I have never seen those cave drawings as a prophecy.

More like general information, warning or instructions of sort... this is what will happend if you enter this cave kinda thing.
It's not necessary that anyone else done the same thing and survived as Spike did. Probably painted by some ancient people who knew what was going on inside that cave.

/SK
Click to expand...

I see everyone's point, but again we never even heard of other soulless beings willingly seeking out their soul to begin with. Angel, a vampire cursed with a soul, was talked in a groundbreaking tone whenever it was mentioned or even found out. Surely if it was done more often, or specialized by a demon, it would have been recorded (by the Council, or WR&H at least). Angel's case wouldn't have been so unique. The cave demon did not seem like he fulfilled requests like Spikes, ever. Just by the way he mocked him in the beginning.

I don't know, the drawing looks so similar to that final scene in "Grave". Just by the positioning of Spike and the demon, but again they are pretty stick-figurish. I'm still getting this feeling that the painting/etching/whatever pertained to Spike's ensoulment somehow. I wouldn't understand why the writers would have thrown in different back stories just for the paintings we only see for like two seconds, unless! UNLESS THEY PROPHESIED THIS VERY THREAD!

*shifty eyes*
 
The cave drawings arealso similar to the shadow puppets from Nikki Wood's Slayer bag. Maybe Spike's demon had some sort of connection with the Shadow men, who created the first Slayer.
 
S
StarSlayer
Ooo, good catch!
white avenger said:
The cave drawings arealso similar to the shadow puppets from Nikki Wood's Slayer bag. Maybe Spike's demon had some sort of connection with the Shadow men, who created the first Slayer.
Click to expand...

Or maybe cave demon is friends with the demon that came out when they did that puppet show.
 
white avenger said:
The cave drawings arealso similar to the shadow puppets from Nikki Wood's Slayer bag. Maybe Spike's demon had some sort of connection with the Shadow men, who created the first Slayer.
Click to expand...

Maybe it was they, TSM! They made those drawings that could possibly be prophecies of Spike. I mean he was so close and tied in with Buffy, maybe they saw his own future in the mix somehow. Maybe even how it would be Spike, not Buffy, that in the end would have saved the world and destroyed the Hellmouth.
 
Black Eye Guy said:
I don't think so.

That cave drawing is of Willow killing Warren, since it would have taken Spike ages to get to Africa, the timeline is well after Willow has gone evil.

I can't remember but there are other drawings too and their all of Willow. Then in Season 7, when Willow summons D'Hoffern he names the demon and says it has a paining of it on it's wall, and that little period of hers is watercooler talk amongst Vengeance demons.

Could that make the demons spike got his soul from some sort of vengence demon? He did say Buffy was going to get what he deserved, sounds vengency to me...
Click to expand...

How could that cave drawing be about Willow killing Warren? She flayed him alive. The drawing has someone stabbing someone.
 
S
StarSlayer
[No message]
lmao, this cracks me up. One vague cave painting spinning theories left and right. For all we know the art department just threw that in there to make the cave look more sinister and old.
 
There doesn't seem to be any reason to think that this was a prophecy drawing about Spike, there is nothing that actually indicates it's about that.

I think it's way more likely to be Willow killing Warren, as it's actually indicated in the show.

D'HOFFRYN
I figured I'd be hearing from you soon. The flaying of Warren Meers? Oh, truly inspired. That was water cooler vengeance. Lloyd has a sketch of it on his wall.
Click to expand...

Plus we know Spike getting his souled would have been after that, as he couldn't have gotten to Africa that fast.
 
Oh yeah that was it, the other drawing was of a face with X's over the mouth, exactly like when Willow sealed Warren mouth.

This one was of her putting the bullet into Warren.
 
Chocoslayer said:
Sooooo...does that mean Willow was prophesied to turn evil?
Click to expand...

I don't think so, I think the demon Lloyd drew it after it happened, as the events of Spike getting his soul back would have happened after Willow killed warren, as it would have taken time for Spike to get to Africa.
 
I always assumed the sketch was an ACTUAL sketch, not a cave etching. I see where the first paintings might be seen as pertaining to Willow, but the last one still looks a lot more like the final scene of "Grave". The position looks nothing like someone getting stabbed, or Warren getting flayed. It looks like a being with their palm on another being's chest, just like when Spike had his soul returned.
 
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