Souls

[Billy_Blood]

Ok, this is a topic concerning everything to do with what souls are in the Buffyverse.

I don't think it's really been explained. What is a soul? A human has a soul, that means it is wrong to kill them. Why? Is a soul like a conceince, telling humans what is right and wrong? We know this isn't true, as there are bad people.

Let's examine the vampire. When a vampire dies, they lose their soul. They become evil. But they do still have memories of their lives, they don't change completely. Why does losing their soul make them evil? We know it's not impossible for vampires to love or feel emotion, so does a soul simply unleash all the feelings a person had in life, which makes them evil?

After Spike's mother became a vamp, she started to telling him all sorts of horrible things to him. This can be seen in two ways: 1) Losing her soul made her not care anymore and simply tell what was on her mind or 2) It made her into a monster and what she was saying wasn't true.

When a person dies, their souls go to heaven. Do the souls of vampires go to heaven, while their bodies go on living. A vampire can get their soul back, where was it? How do we know if it was really their original soul that came back to them, and not a new one that was made? Is every persons soul different, or are all souls the same? Does every soul have a different type of personality?

When Buffy died, her soul went to heaven, and she remembers this. When vampires get their souls back, they have no memories of their soul being in heaven, so where was their soul. What happens to the soul of humans after they sell it? And who do they sell it to, and what can it be used for? Do you animals have souls?

And finally let's discuss whether or not vengance demons have souls. When Anya became a vengance demon, was her soul taken away? And when she lost her powers, did she get her soul back, or was she just a human with no soul?

 

[Happy]

A soul doesn't make someone good or moral, it simply gives them the option. Without a soul you are evil, no option.

Angel's soul was said to be 'in the ether'. Darla suggested, when she was restored to life, that her soul wasn't anywhere and she was found wondering whether there even was a 'true' heaven or hell. In short, the writers have been intentionally vague about what happend to the souls of vampires.

So far I don't think we've seen any selling of souls on Buffy. It may not be a Buffyverse concept. Then again, maybe I'm forgetting something.

Spikes mom did love him in life. When someone becomes a vampire their body becomes possessed by a 'demon essence' type deal. The vampire's personality is based on the human's, but the two are not carbon copies. Her love apparently died with her, while Spike's did not.

As far as Anya goes... can't tell you. I've brought this up in a few places before and never really gotten an answer. She seemed to know what she did was wrong (the whole frat boy thing) and was willing to sacrifice herself to right that wrong. Does this mean she had a soul? Maybe. Does this mean that Buffy was essentially about to commit murder when she went after Anya? Also maybe.

 

[SpikedBuffy]

not all souls go to Heaven~~~ some do go to Hell.
(just thought I'd clear that up)

Depending on what type of person a Human was before they were bit and killed would determine where there soul would go.
The souls are then pulled out of wherever they were to be restored to the soulless person. I don't think that vampires remember their souls in Heaven or Hell, because essentially, they have been 'alive' walking around, wreaking havoc on things, so there is no need to concentrate on the fact that they are dead.

Anya~~ I belive she has a soul, and very bad moral judgement. She probably had some sort of 'soul' when she was a vengeance demon where she knew what she was doing, but knew she probably was never going to die, so she didn't care if she was bad and essentially would be sent to Hell when she died. When her powers are now taken away, she is back to human qualities, restored with her original soul, yet I don't think she is using it quite yet. She will though, and turn out to be a triumphant character I suppose.

 

[Tyra]

I think that when you become a vampire, you lose your soul and a demon walks around in your body with your memories. It's the last part that makes vampires so confusing, IMHO -- and makes them able to trick former friends and family, up to a point.

Happy, I think once in Season 3 the Mayor said that he'd "sell his soul" to be able to play a better game of golf, if he hadn't already sold it long ago. (He was being facetious, however, and not necessarily literal.)

In Buffyverse, there seem to be all sorts of different hell, heaven, and alternate dimensions. It's always seemed to me you could be sucked into any of them (body and/or soul) by mystical energy, being in the wrong place at the wrong time, or physically entering a portal, as well as dying. I don't think it necessarily has anything to do with whether or not you "deserve" to go to Heaven or Hell in the conventional sense.

 

[Javen]

I think it's possible that the writers are trying to convey that the majority of people possess good (a soul) and evil (a demon essence, if you will). The two sides are always at odds with each other, and it's up to the person in question which side is emphasized more, which side is surpressed. Vampires have no souls, so their evil side is dominant. Should they get their soul back, their evil side does not disappear, and it's probably something they're more acutely aware of than the average person. Which is why we see both Spike and Angel frequently fighting with their dark side.
Of course, there are humans that don't possess a balance either. The boy in the Angel episode "I've got you under my skin" had no soul, and thus was evil.
I think the majority of demons have the balance in question as well, just the ones we see are predominantly evil.

But then, I could be way off base.

 

[Tyra]

Originally posted by Javen
I think it's possible that the writers are trying to convey that the majority of people possess good (a soul) and evil (a demon essence, if you will).

Javen, I'm not sure if I agree with you or not, or if I'm struggling with semantics.

I think in the Buffyverse, all humans are born with a soul. A soul is not good in itself, it's what makes us human and gives us the potential for doing good.

A souled human can be extremely evil, however. An examples are the criminally insane vampire Kralik (S3 "Helpless") who'd been a sociopath and a serial killer even before he'd been sired. To be human can be evil, and a soul can be evil. (I don't know which would come first, or if would be an interactive process.)

All demons aren't evil (e.g., Whistler, Clem), but the soul question seems to have been carefully avoided except in the case of vampires. (Anyone find anything definitive on Anyanka or Halfrek?)

Vampires are evil; although they have human emotions and memories, they are soulless and therefore have no potential to do or become truly good.

Souled vampires (all 2 of them) do have the chance to do good, of redemption, but first have to come to terms with how much they have to redeem themselves for. (How they deal with all of it seems to depend a lot on indivual personality.)

All of this is, of course, IMHO...