Spike 6 (Of 8) What Do You Think? SPOILERS

white avenger

white avenger
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So, how do you like this arc so far, and how do you think that it's gonna tie in with the Season 8 finale? So far, or at least up until this issue, I haven't seen anything that could possibly connect what Spike is doing here with his timely appearance over at Dark Horse, and they've only got two more issues to go. Also, I'm assuming that there's some kind of time warp that's going to take place fairly soon, or there better be a good explanation as to how Willow can be in Las Vegas and the Himalayas both at the same time.

(And I still say that Willow's acting a whole lot more friendly toward Spike here than she ever did when the show was on TV)
 
This story is starting to explore some interesting directions about the soul in the Buffyverse... that it's basically just a power source, and any soul can go in any body; also, that you can learn to be good and feel love without having to have a soul (which Spike seems to be claiming here.)

Of course, this will all have to be reversed by the end of issue #8. I'll be interested to see how Drusilla reacts to having a soul, and how Spike will eventually end up with it back.

Also interested to see how Spike is going to steal Wolfram & Hart's escape ship.

I didn't like the art, but I think a lot of that is due to the fact that the inking is too heavy.
 
I've never liked the art of the Angel series, but I've learned to look past it, lol.

I think this story line is all over the place. Lynch doesn't seem to know where he's going, and he doesn't seem to get how important a soul in in the Buffyverse. The fact that any soul can go into any body is a little ridiculous if you ask me. What is Angelus had been ensouled with the soul of a murderer or rapist who was not so conveniently nearby? Would that have made him any better than Angelus without a soul?

Plus, wasn't it specifically stated in S6 that it was Spike's own soul that was restored? Isn't that what the demon said? 'I will return YOUR soul'?

I don't know.

The idea of Dru with a soul scares me. She is literally out of her mind insane. What's a soul going to do to her?

Also, was there anything in S8 that suggested Spike was still in possession of his soul? I don't think there's anyway that anyone would be able to tell. Like Spike said, he was good before he got his soul back, so it's not like he's like Angel who reverts to Angelus when he's soul is removed.

At the moment, I don't like Willow being there. It seems like the two of them were just thrown together for the sake of it, and they don't really work. Willow doesn't seem to be doing much except standing around and watching. And how did she know that Spike would be able to choose who his soul would go to? It's not like they've ever come across something like this before.
 
white avenger
white avenger
You posted faster than I did and beat me out of all of my good points.
The soul issue does bring up a point. I thought that it had been established (or maybe I just interpreted it this way) that the soul, at least in Spike's case, and probably Angel's as well, was unique to the character, not just some one-size-fits-all force. Remember, the cave demon told Spike that they were returning HIS soul to him, not just giving him a soul, and there was something mentioned in Season 5 of "Angel" that Fred's soul was destroyed, making it impossible to return it to her/Illyria's body. If that really is the case, then it should mean that Spike's soul COULDN'T be awarded or given to anybody else. Therefore, Dru couldn't receive Spike's soul, much less have it influence her in any fashion.
 
The soul concept has been rewritten so many times. Since season 1, in which The Master and Luke had souls. Justice demons have souls. The Mayor could sell his soul. Angel could be drugged into believing that he lost his soul.
 
My theory was that the soul is just a power source, like a battery, that makes it easier to make moral decisions. These power sources are all connected together, like nodes on a power grid, which is what enables the owner of a soul to feel empathy for other people.

Without one, you can still feel love and act "good," but it's harder because you have to feel your way along and you don't have any sense of compulsion to do good, or regret for the evil that you do. Which is why Spike probably won't want to go very far without a soul.

I think a person's memories and personality are not part of the soul. They go along with the physical body and the brain, which is why vampires still keep all their memories and identity after losing their soul, and why a disembodied soul has no will or perception or memories of its own.

Of course, this would mean that Fred is still there inside Illyria, just as William Pratt is still there inside Spike. But since she has no soul of her own, and her body is under someone else's control, she might not have any independent will or sentience apart from Illyria.

This would also explain why Darla experienced feelings of love, altruism and empathy when she was pregnant with Connor. She had a soul inside her. It wasn't hers, but that didn't matter... the power source was there. If she'd managed to give birth to Connor normally, she would have immediately lost that soul and all of her love for her child. She probably would have felt revulsion and tried to kill him.
 
Wannabe Slayer

I think Spike giving the soul to Drusilla is an amazing shows just how far he has come; he is willing to give up that for which he fought so hard to obtain so she can have the same chance at redemption that he and Angel have had. I am concerned for the state of Drusilla's already fractured mind, but I'm anxious to see how this plays out.

However, I don't think it was HIS soul that entered her, just as I don't think the Demon put John's soul in Spike's body. I think mystically the demon played on the universe's laws of balance and of cause and effect. In restoring Spike's soul, he removed the soul from another, not transferring it between the two. If Spike had've gone to the Romani clan with the same goal in mind, cause-and-effect would have remained in the form of the "perfect happiness" clause. If we've learned anything at all from Buffy and Angel, it is that there are consequences for everything, especially magick (Season 8 is superb example of such consequences, as the universe tries to restore the balance displaced by the empowerment spell from "Chosen").

The consequences of the Romani spell were "good" compared to those of the demon's restoration. Enyos explains these perfectly is Season 2's "Innocence": "[He] is meant to suffer, not to live as human. One moment of true happiness, of contentment, one moment where the soul that we restored no longer plagues his thoughts, and that soul is taken from him." Willow tells us in "Orpheus" that the Romani spell pulls the soul safely and directly from the ether, harming none in the process. The consequential ripples of this spell, which could be a "purer" form of restoration even though originally cast in vengeance, would impact few beyond Spike's inner circle.

The consequences of the Demon's actions, however, are unknown at the time of Spike's restoration in "Grave", because we as viewers/readers had yet to see a soul restored in this fashion. We can assume Spike's soul was pulled from the ether, the mystical holding place for the souls of humans-turned-vampire (since we know Buffy's soul went to "heaven" when her body died and nothing took possession of it to turn in "undead" in "The Gift", we can assume that a vampire's soul in the ether will not move on to heaven or hell until its undead body "dies", or turns to dust). The Demon maintains the law of balance for this mystical action by taking the soul from another to place in the ether in Spike's stead. The Demon's methods are even more sinister in that it takes the soul from a psychopathic murderer who eventually will stop at nothing to get it back, the consequences of which we are seeing now. Again, the Law of Balance and the Law of Cause-and-Effect are in play.

When John's spell removed the soul from Spike, I don't think it was Spike's soul itself we saw floating among our characters. It was something more akin to a Thesulan Orb, acting as a gateway between our world and the ether, a conduit through which not only Spike's soul but any soul could travel. Therefore, when Spike sent this glowing ball into Drusilla, it was her soul that passed through it into her body, not Spike's soul.

As for Fred and Illyria, the debate of restoring Fred's soul has gone on since "Shells" first aired; however, the episode explicit states that this cannot happen. As the Doctor says, "There's nothing left to bring back. Miss Burkle's soul was consumed by the fires of resurrection. Everything she was is gone. Forever." Unlike the circumstances surrounding vampirism and siring, Fred's soul wasn't lost to the ether; Illyria ate Fred's soul in the process of taking over her body. Illyria's recent embrace of her "humanity" is what AndrewCrossett refers to as the lingering memories and identity of the person and body. But I don't agree that a person's soul doesn't share these same memories and personality, because most mystical beliefs teach that each soul is unique. This uniqueness is how we know John's soul did not end up in Spike's body, nor Spike's soul in Drusilla's in turn.

A soul can, however, share itself with another, as we learned in "Lullaby", and therefore, must have its own capacity for the love, altruism, and empathy that Crossett mentions in regards to Darla. Darla's feelings during her moment on the rooftop with Angel don't parallel those of her human self before the Master sired her. *Before she was turned, she was an uncaring whore dying of syphilis. She only experiences these new feelings as she shares the soul attached to Conner's body which is growing inside her. Souls can only be shared through this unique physical bond between mother and child, and so cannot be shared between father and child, or any other two people for that matter, as that bond does not exist.

As for Willow's presence that white avenger is confused by, remember that this segment of the Angel-verse still takes place in the time before or during the very beginning of Season 8. Remember in the first two issues of "The Long Way Home", Willow is absent. Buffy and Xander aren't sure where she is, Kennedy won't tell them, and Dawn keeps asking when she is coming back. During this Spike arc, he keeps telling Willow "not to involve HER", "don't mention this to HER". Willow actually respects Spike's wishes until the final pages of "Twilight" when Spike's ship crashes into the building, and Willow says, "Oh, this is gonna be good."

Continuity wise, I would place Spike 5-8 after the Angel 44, because both characters still have to be gone from our dimension for a while, and we know from "The Last Gleaming" that Angel reappeared on Earth before Spike so we can assume he'll be leaving this plain before Spike does as well.

Also, I do agree with white avenger that Willow is a whole lot friendlier toward Spike than she ever was in Seasons 2-7, but I'm willing to forgive this. Afterall, he did save them all from the First and its army of Turok-Han; I'd be friendly to him too. 🙂
 
As for Fred and Illyria, the debate of restoring Fred's soul has gone on since "Shells" first aired; however, the episode explicit states that this cannot happen. As the Doctor says, "There's nothing left to bring back. Miss Burkle's soul was consumed by the fires of resurrection. Everything she was is gone. Forever."


As for Willow's presence that white avenger is confused by, remember that this segment of the Angel-verse still takes place in the time before or during the very beginning of Season 8. Remember in the first two issues of "The Long Way Home", Willow is absent. Buffy and Xander aren't sure where she is, Kennedy won't tell them, and Dawn keeps asking when she is coming back. During this Spike arc, he keeps telling Willow "not to involve HER", "don't mention this to HER". Willow actually respects Spike's wishes until the final pages of "Twilight" when Spike's ship crashes into the building, and Willow says, "Oh, this is gonna be good."



Also, I do agree with white avenger that Willow is a whole lot friendlier toward Spike than she ever was in Seasons 2-7, but I'm willing to forgive this. Afterall, he did save them all from the First and its army of Turok-Han; I'd be friendly to him too. 🙂

Concerning Fred's soul being totally destroyed, the Doctor could have been lying. In fact, it would definitely be to his advantage if Angel, Spike, and the others believed that so that they would stop trying to recover it and reinstall it in her body. Remember, if there had been a Season 6 of Angel televised, one of the things that Joss planned to do was to split Fred and Illyria apart into two independent beings. Fred would have to have her soul back for that.

As for my confusion about the time line between the "Spike" miniseries and Season 8, I'm well aware of it. I just can't see him waiting around that long just to make a dramatic in-the-nick-of-time appearance, considering the fact that Buffy needed all the help that she could lay her hands on at that time. I think that he would have been on his way to her side at the earliest possible moment.

And I still say that Willow is just TOO affectionate toward Spike without at least some sort of explanation.

Hopefully, the next couple of months will gather up all of the loose threads, either in this miniseries or at least early on in Season 9.
 
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