Spike and Buffy: “I love you,” - “ No, you don’t.”

Joan the Vampire Slayer

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Recently, I re-watched "Dead Things", and was reminded of the scene in the alley where Spike tells Buffy "I love you" and she responds "No, you don't."

And of course, I thought immediately of their final scene together in "Chosen", where this time, SHE says he loves him, and he says "no, you don't."

Oh, the irony! They mirror each other, and switch roles.

Perhaps Spike’s answer in “Chosen” was a mirror of her answer earlier in “Dead Things”? And not actually that he doesnt believe her?
And Buffy's smile is an acknowledgment of that interaction from their past, and an inside joke of sorts?

Discuss!
 
It is a nice call back but I genuinely think he was too insecure since getting his soul and all they had been through to believe her at that point.
I agree with this.

In Seeing Red Buffy explains to Spike:
"I have feelings for you. I do. But it's not love. I could never trust you enough for it to be love."

So I think that Spike, now that he has a soul, is fully aware of all the atrocities he committed and does not believe that she (or anyone) could (or should) ever trust him fully and completely.
 
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Interesting perspective.
I flip flop between "he didn't believe her," "he did believe her, but he didn't think he deserved her," and "he believed her, and in denying it he's ensuring that Buffy will be able to go live her life and won't be hung up over him."

I like this part a lot. Spike would have known about her and Angel, and he definitely would have known about her loving him after/while he died. The emotional turmoil she was in afterwards is definitely apparent, so it is highly likely he didn’t want to hurt her like Angel did.

I think deep down they both did love each other. Truly. Spike just didn’t want Buffy to go on sad over losing him
 
I like this part a lot. Spike would have known about her and Angel, and he definitely would have known about her loving him after/while he died. The emotional turmoil she was in afterwards is definitely apparent, so it is highly likely he didn’t want to hurt her like Angel did.

I think deep down they both did love each other. Truly. Spike just didn’t want Buffy to go on sad over losing him
“The pain you feel can only be healed by living. You have to keep on living, so that one of us is living.”

“The hardest thing in this world is to live in it. Be brave, live for me.”
 
I flip flop between "he didn't believe her," "he did believe her, but he didn't think he deserved her," and "he believed her, and in denying it he's ensuring that Buffy will be able to go live her life and won't be hung up over him."
I think that's a really good perspective, but I also think that if a person was really in love with someone, being told at the end, "No, you don't", would just leave that person agonizing that they didn't show it enough. In other words, it would be worse for the one left living. Though Spike didn't really have the time to do this analysis!

My own opinion is that Spike feels Buffy does not love him the way he wants - romantically - so that's why he says it.

However, the parallel @Joan the Vampire Slayer brings up reminds me of Han Solo saying, "I know," when Leia says she loves him, and I wonder if Joss et al. wanted to play against that, too!
 
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Oh interesting about Star Wars.
I don’t really know what to think about this scene. If I put myself in theirs shoes and that I imagine living this situation : if I tell someone « I love you » and that someone responds to me « no you don’t » I would feel 1) confused 2) angry.. confused because « no you don’t » isn’t an answer I’m expecting when I say « I love you to someone ».. and angry because I would take the « no you don’t » as like that someone would pretend to know me better than I know me and I would find that super pretentious at first. Then I would ask myself if yes or not it’s an possibility that I lie to myself.. maybe this person is right ? Or maybe he/she doesn’t know me so very well..

Theses are only my thoughts on how I would live this situations.. but it does tell nothing about Spike/Buffy and how she/ he lives and understand because obviously I’m not him/her.
 
Then I would ask myself if yes or not it’s an possibility that I lie to myself.. maybe this person is right ? Or maybe he/she doesn’t know me so very well..
Right, and also not to mention it's also pretty condescending to say "no, you don't" when someone tells you they love you. It suggests you don't know what you want or how you feel.

However, I do not think Spike meant to downplay or deny Buffy's feelings in this scene. I genuinely think Spike said in a sort of a joke, to lighten the mood and to "get her off the hook."

In the end, I think Spike really didn't believe her. I think he does now, but not in that moment.

"No, you don't, but thanks for saying it."

The last part of the the sentence is often overlooked and I think the most important. What he is really saying is:

"I appreciate the gesture, I know I'm dying, but you don't need to say you love me if you don't mean it."

I think if they had more time she could have absolutely convinced him she did love him.
 
Reason: Clarity
I think that's a really good perspective, but I also think that if a person was really in love with someone, being told at the end, "No, you don't", would just leave that person agonizing that they didn't show it enough. In other words, it would be worse for the one left living. Though Spike didn't really have the time to do this analysis!

My own opinion is that Spike feels Buffy does not love him the way he wants - romantically - so that's why he says it.

However, the parallel @Joan the Vampire Slayer brings up reminds me of Han Solo saying, "I know," when Leia says she loves him, and I wonder if Joss et al. wanted to play against that, too!
Oh my god, I always thought that the Chosen scene was kind of similar to that scene from The Empire Strikes Back. You’re totally right.
 
Oh my god, I always thought that the Chosen scene was kind of similar to that scene from The Empire Strikes Back. You’re totally right.
Speaking of this scene, have you seen the cut line from the shooting script?

BUFFY
I love you.

A moment. He smiles kindly.

SPIKE
No you don't. But thanks for saying it.

A big quake rocks them. Spike pushes her away.

SPIKE (cont'd)
It's your world up there. Now GO!


Though not an extensive cut, I find what Spike tells Buffy here very interesting and wish it hadn't been cut. But I wonder what he means by it? Thoughts?

 
However, the parallel @Joan the Vampire Slayer brings up reminds me of Han Solo saying, "I know," when Leia says she loves him, and I wonder if Joss et al. wanted to play against that, too!

In short, yes. IIRC, he (or someone) has talked about the Han Solo moment, in the sense of "how do you top it?" One of the major themes of S7 is "not knowing" or the impossibility of full knowledge. How does one know (anything)? In the West, we equate knowledge with seeing ('seeing is believing', 'see for yourself', 'I'll believe it when I see it'). Take a look (pun not intended) at S7 - at how often eyes/sight are mentioned. It's not just direct reference: Lessons begins with people not wanting to see; Anya sees Spike's soul in/through his eyes; eyes are the windows to the soul; Xander mends windows; Xander is "the seer".* It's a season about ocularcentrism (the West's privileging of sight), which is shown to be flawed.

History is another source of knowledge - but history is shown to be incomplete. In S7 we learn new things about the past (the slayer/Spike/Anya have untold origin stories; the Guardian gives Buffy a parallel history). What we know changes - change the past and you change the present and the future.

The other source of "knowledge" is language but language is shown to be unreliable - either lacking or too full (codes are forgotten or duplicitous). How do you trust what people say in a season full of Freudian slips and intrusive unconscious?

Touched is key here. Forget Spike's speech. In the latter half of last century there was a school of thought that elevated the sense of touch above sight (it's to do with object/subject). There's a line in a Leonard Cohen song "I couldn't feel so I learned to touch". People forget the words are treated as synonyms (philosophically they're different). It sends us spiraling back to OMWF (and SR where he tries to make her feel). They're learning to "touch". It's significant that once he gets on the bed there's no sound or language...except for the Heather Nova It's Only Love. Interesting lyrics:

I used to think that I knew what we needed
I just assumed we would always be fine
Now I don't think that we lost the feeling
But we, let everything build up inside
It's only love
But love should make us strong
It's only love
But love has been hurting so long
What a challenge, honesty
What a struggle to learn to speak
Who would've thought that pretending was easier
It's only love
But love should make us strong
It's only love
But love has been hurting so long
And it's all, a part of me
It tears at my heart
Only love
And it's all an eternity
Hoping to learn
Only love
Love
There's a part of you I'm trying to reach
Still a part I don't know
Tell me, is devotion a gift or a thief
Do you wish I'd let go
It's only love
But love should make us strong
It's only love
But love has been hurting so long
And it's all, a part of me
It tears at my heart
Only love
And it's all, eternity
Hoping to learn
Only love
Only love, only love
Only love, only love, only love, only
Only love, only love, only love, only love
Love, only love

The line the ends on Spuffy is "And it's all an eternity hoping to learn only love".
There's new knowledge of "the other" being created here - so new they don't have a word for it. "What does it mean" (EoD)

In short, he doesn't know/she doesn't know/the viewer doesn't know. It's the opposite of the Han Solo moment. If the viewer "knows", s/he takes responsibility for knowing. S/he is "Master of the text" - not Joss. S5-7 are full-blown critical postmodernism and postmodernism plays by its own rules.

*Some fans complain about the absence of big metaphors in the later seasons but they're absolutely replete with metaphor/symbolism in the sense that metaphor/the symbol stands in for something else - the unspeakable Real. The burning hands are probably more significant than the ILY-NYD.
 
Stake fodder
Stake fodder
Welcome back! I've missed your fascinating analyses. 🙂
Right, and also not to mention it's also pretty condescending to say "no, you don't" when someone tells you they love you. It suggests you don't know what you want or how you feel.

However, I do not think Spike meant to downplay or deny Buffy's feelings in this scene. I genuinely think Spike said in a sort of a joke, to lighten the mood and to "get her off the hook."

In the end, I think Spike really didn't believe her. I think he does now, but not in that moment.

"No, you don't, but thanks for saying it."

The last part of the the sentence is often overlooked and I think the most important. What he is really saying is:

"I appreciate the gesture, I know I'm dying, but you don't need to say you love me if you don't mean it."

I think if they had more time she could have absolutely convinced him she did love him.
See I personally thinks he knows she’s not ‘in love with’ him, but she has grown to love him as a close comrade and friend. And that he really does appreciate the gesture even though he knows it’s not true that she loves him the way he wants her to. She loves him becuase he’s been what she needed through a bad time-she’s not ‘in love with’ him
 
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Agree to disagree. I absolutely believe she loved/loves him.
See I personally thinks he knows she’s not ‘in love with’ him, but she has grown to love him as a close comrade and friend. And that he really does appreciate the gesture even though he knows it’s not true that she loves him the way he wants her to. She loves him becuase he’s been what she needed through a bad time-she’s not ‘in love with’ him
That’s what HE thinks but I don’t think that’s what SHE feels. How can he know her feelings better than she does herself. He was telling her she loves him in s6. He gets it wrong plenty of times. He has taken a battering since he got his soul and is lot less sure of himself and his place including the depth of Buffy’s feelings. Joss said the relationship shown in season 7 was an intimate and romantic one if not physical for obvious reasons. In my view she was starting to fall in love with him at end of season 7 but perhaps not ready to dive into a relationship and perhaps she wouldn’t even have been ready to say it if that wasn’t her last chance to.
 
Speaking of this scene, have you seen the cut line from the shooting script?

BUFFY
I love you.

A moment. He smiles kindly.

SPIKE
No you don't. But thanks for saying it.

A big quake rocks them. Spike pushes her away.

SPIKE (cont'd)
It's your world up there. Now GO!


Though not an extensive cut, I find what Spike tells Buffy here very interesting and wish it hadn't been cut. But I wonder what he means by it? Thoughts?

I hadn’t seen the original script before, and now I’m sad that they cut this line! I think it’s sort of a callback to how Spike is ultimately the one who reminds Buffy that she has to keep on living, no matter how hard it is. Angel makes her want to die, and Spike makes her want to live.
 
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Joan the Vampire Slayer
I love this interpretation.
The more I think about it I think my theory is right. That he said "no you don't" as a joke/reference to when she said it in "Dead Things." I am convinced. She smiles because she remembers saying that. And it's totally in character for Spike at this point to be self deprecating.
 
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