Spike and Dru In "Lies My Parents..."

[Kana]

Yeah, the only way a vampire can enter the home of a living person is if they as a vampire own the property (like in City Of, Russell owned the building so he could enter Tina's apartment) but Angel couldn't get into Fred's room because the lease was in the company name (Angel Investigations) not his name, so he didn't own the hotel.

 

[Atren]

What i want to know is that if writers debated about this issue too when wrote it -- should Spike need invite or not.

 

[Buffanator]

And it was his moms house, not his.

A question I keep pondering: How do we know it was his Moms house? I mean... maybe it was HIS house & he let his Mom live with him. William once said "I will always take care of you, Mother" - so maybe it was HIS house.

And for goofy argument sake, my mother always told me "this is MY house, and I just let you live here"... and then again, my daddy would say "this is MY house and it is YOUR HOUSE too..." (way to confuse a kid, eh!?!?!?)

At any rate, I like my theory, so I'm sticking with it. Until somebody else comes up with a better one. :lmao:

---------- Post added at 04:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:42 PM ----------

I've never heard any sort of loophole mentioned on the show that allows a vampire to enter the home of a living person just because he (the vampire) had, while living, either lived in or owned the house in question. Remember, William was dead. In effect, he no longer existed. He was replaced by a demon who animated his corpse and retained his memories. One of the rules with vampires in the Buffyverse is that they have to be invited into the home by someone who actually lived there AND considers it their home. Remember how Kokistos and Mr Trick could come into Faith's motel, but Angel had to be invited into Fred's room at the Hyperion, even though he owned, or at least leased, the building. Obviously, Faith, at that time at least, just considered her room as a place to sleep, while Fred immediately thought of hers as her home and sanctuary.

I don't see how this scene can be anything other than a screw up on the part of either the writers or the episode's final editor, as in, maybe there was a scene shot actually addressing this issue, but they just didn't have the time to include it in the episode.

Ahhhh... but LIVING ACCOMMODATIONS and a HOTEL STAY are two different things. Kokistos and Mr Trick could come into Faith's motel because it was PUBLIC ACCOMMODATIONS. Faith never "lived" anywhere. She just stayed wherever until she moved on.

Angel had to be invited into Fred's room because he didn't use the Hyperion as a hotel - NOT public accommodations; it's where HE lived, and Fred lived, and after a while, Lorne, etc. LIKE AN APARTMENT BUILDING instead of a hotel room.

Remember when Darla was in the hotel room....when the WRH lawyers broke in with Drusilla....? Drusilla didn't need an invite. Neither did Angel - Remember? Because that's where Darla was staying.. NOT LIVING at the time. There's obviously a difference. Such as when Lindsay had to invite Angel into his apartment. It's where he LIVED.

And in BtVS, when Dawn told Harmony "oh yeah, why don't you come in here & say that?" - giving Harmony the necessary threshold crossing invite she needed.... neither Xander nor Anya could do that because they didn't live there. It had to be Dawn.

Okay... I feel I'm rambling. I'll shush for now.

:thought:

 

[Sunnydale Siren]

pretty good episode, brutal fight between Spike and Robin Wood.

 

[white avenger]

Ahhhh... but LIVING ACCOMMODATIONS and a HOTEL STAY are two different things. Kokistos and Mr Trick could come into Faith's motel because it was PUBLIC ACCOMMODATIONS. Faith never "lived" anywhere. She just stayed wherever until she moved on.

Angel had to be invited into Fred's room because he didn't use the Hyperion as a hotel - NOT public accommodations; it's where HE lived, and Fred lived, and after a while, Lorne, etc. LIKE AN APARTMENT BUILDING instead of a hotel room.

Remember when Darla was in the hotel room....when the WRH lawyers broke in with Drusilla....? Drusilla didn't need an invite. Neither did Angel - Remember? Because that's where Darla was staying.. NOT LIVING at the time. There's obviously a difference. Such as when Lindsay had to invite Angel into his apartment. It's where he LIVED.

And in BtVS, when Dawn told Harmony "oh yeah, why don't you come in here & say that?" - giving Harmony the necessary threshold crossing invite she needed.... neither Xander nor Anya could do that because they didn't live there. It had to be Dawn.

Okay... I feel I'm rambling. I'll shush for now.

:thought:

And what it basically comes down to is the intangible factor of what makes a house a home. It isn't ownership of a particular piece of real estate, it's the dweller's attitude toward that piece of real estate. Giles almost certainly either rented or leased the apartment where he lived in Sunnydale, but Angel still couldn't enter without Giles' spoken permission, because he considered it his home. Angel could have killed the legal owner and still wouldn't have been able to enter unless he were invited in. Fred considered her room at the Hyperion
to be her home, therefore Angel had to have her permission in order to enter.

I have little doubt that neither Darla nor Faith considered their hotel rooms as anything more than places to sleep, so the magical barrier at the threshold did not exist.

If ownership was the qualifying factor, Dawn would never be able to have invited Harmony in, because, as a legal minor, she couldn't own property. But that house on Revello Drive was her home, the only one that she had ever known.

Which gets us back to the original question. If the only LIVING person to still consider it her home didn't invite William and Dru in, then the writers, director, and editors just plain let a mistake slip by. Arguably, without that mistake, the rest of the episode as we know it would not have happened, but mistake it still is nevertheless.

 

[Tranquillity]

I don't see this as a mistake on the writer's part. I already said my theory about it being William's property and his not requiring an invitation to get in on the first page of this thread BUT even if this is not the case then William and Dru could easily have gained entry via a servant (who they then went on to eat).

I think there is direct reference to ownership/entry rules, particularly in Angel. I'm thinking of the Prodigal:

Angel: "Invite me in. Do it now."
Trevor: "Son, you really need to go."
Angel strains against the barrier: "Invite me in. (The two suit guys morph into vamp face) Invite me in! (One of them grabs Trevor and throws him across the room) No. No!"
Suit guy to Angel: "Looks like you're not welcome here, bro."
Angel: "He dies, the very instant his soul leaves his body, I'm through this door and I'll kill you both!"
Angel has to watch helplessly as they drain Kate's father. They drop him and Angel charges in, kicks a chair to break off a leg, hits the bigger vamp and stakes it. The other vamp runs out of the room, almost colliding with Kate as she runs in.
Kate falls on top of her dad: "Oh! Daddy! No, dad."
She sees the bite marks on his neck and breaks down crying.

So from that, it would seem that ownership does have a direct bearing on ability to enter a property.

 

[BillyidolwannaB]

If Angelus needed an invite to enter his parents house in the Prodigal,(his little sis had to invite him in) i imagine Spike should have needed one to enter his moms house. So i'm going with Tranquillity here. It was Williams house. He was a wealthy poet. He owned houses.

 

[Kana]

Giles almost certainly either rented or leased the apartment where he lived in Sunnydale, but Angel still couldn't enter without Giles' spoken permission, because he considered it his home. Angel could have killed the legal owner and still wouldn't have been able to enter unless he were invited in. Fred considered her room at the Hyperion

I don't see any issue with Giles having to invite Angel. That apartment was his private accommodation so he would need an invite.

Fred considered her room at the Hyperionto be her home, therefore Angel had to have her permission in order to enter.

But as it was said above, the Hyperion wasn't public accommodation anymore because it wasn't open as a hotel. So whether or not someone considers something a home, isn't the factor or the difference here, the status of the building is.

I have little doubt that neither Darla nor Faith considered their hotel rooms as anything more than places to sleep, so the magical barrier at the threshold did not exist.

As said above, they were staying in public accommodation, no invite needed.

If ownership was the qualifying factor, Dawn would never be able to have invited Harmony in, because, as a legal minor, she couldn't own property. But that house on Revello Drive was her home, the only one that she had ever known.

Yes, ownership isn't the question for the any human living in said private accommodation, but it is a standard override for a potential entering vampire. As I said before, Russell Winters entered Tina's apartment in City Of because he owned the building.

Which gets us back to the original question. If the only LIVING person to still consider it her home didn't invite William and Dru in, then the writers, director, and editors just plain let a mistake slip by. Arguably, without that mistake, the rest of the episode as we know it would not have happened, but mistake it still is nevertheless.

It should have been on screen but I like the servent idea.

 

[fly on the wall]

I think the point about Dawn is interesting. Apparently, legal ownership is actually of little importance, since Dawn could invite vampires in even though she did not own the house.

I don't think that killing the legal owner makes the house up for grabs. If Joyce had been killed by a vamp, and the house was unprotected legally, I don't think a vampire could have entered because Buffy and Dawn still considered the house their home. There's definitely a level of emotional ownership over the building that comes into play.

Also, something to consider....Angel waiting to be invited into Fred's room could have just been manners. He wanted her to feel at ease and in control, and so he pretended he had to be invited in by her. He wanted her room to feel like a sanctuary, much like her cave had. And so he let her make the choice on whether or not she wanted a visitor. I dunno, just a thought.

So, my theory? Spike being able to enter his old house was either a mistake, or has an explanation (like the servant letting him in) that we didn't see.

 

[Wren Summers]

Hmmm..It's truly tricky.
One could assume that William actually owned the house, and his mother didn't. I'm no expert on 18th century stuff, but I think it's like women couldn't own a house. William's father died, and automatically William got the house. The owner of the house now being dead, makes it possible for any indead to enter.
It's almost the only way for it to be possible.

---------- Post added at 04:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:12 AM ----------

Aw shootie poop! True Paperdoll. I always forget how it works. I just thought 1880 = 18th century. No wonder I never passed History. *les sigh*

This I think explains it. It makes sense and is probably what they were going for, and forgot to explain.