Spike And Faith In Season 7

[white avenger]

In Season 7, as we all know, Buffy was very positive and supportive of Spike once she found out about his soul, even to the point of taking his side against her friends and allies. Even when he, under the the control of First Evil, began killing again, she refused to hold him in any way responsible, and even, it has been argued, put everyone else in danger by having his chip removed and not restraining him. She believes in him, she trusts him, and that's the end of that conversation, regardless of anyone else's objections.

So, why isn't she just as eager to extend that same courtesy to Faith? Almost from the moment that Faith arrives, I get the distinct impression that she just KNOWS that Faith is going to screw up somehow, and when she does, by taking the girls to the Bronze, Buffy slugs her. And this feeling of distrust doesn't seem to ever change, but even carries over into Season 8.

Why is there this difference in her tolerance and forgiveness of previous sins between these two characters?

Or am I the only one who sees this?

 

[Blaze]

I think the answer lies in the relationship these two had in s3. Buffy and Faith at some point were very close. To Buffy, Faith was the only other person that could really understand her. She was the only other slayer, she knew very well what Buffy was going through. To Faith, Buffy was the closest thing she had to a friend. She was the only actual somewhat relationship that Faith was able to attain with a girl her age (although we don't know much about Faith's past, but I doubt she had many friends growing up). When Faith turned on Buffy, both girls lost something very, very important that they couldn't obtain from anyone else. They were the only two slayers that will ever know the hardship of being slayers together (s8 doesn't count because there's so many slayers, it really isn't the same as being "alone" against all the evil).

I can't help but feel that Buffy was very bitter about the fact that she lost the only thing that gave her reassurance in being the slayer. She lost the only other person in the world that could help her on the same level as herself. Faith and buffy's relationship is probably what I find to be the most interest relationship of the whole verse (and that's saying a lot). With Spike, I doubt Buffy ever felt this betrayed. When Spike started killing again, it wasn't his fault per say. He had a soul and therefore didn't need a chip any more, and she knew that very well having been with Angel before. She was able to forgive Spike s6 just the same as she was able to forgive Angel s2. She knows the difference between a vamp with a soul and one without. With Faith, it was entirely different because she was human. How can you trust someone that use to be a serial killer, while still maintaining complete control of themselves (technically speaking as in Faith still had her soul, therefore knew what she was doing).

At that point, Faith had also tortured many of B's friend, almost destroyed her relationship with Riley, almost killed Angel etc. and all that with a soul. That breaks a friendship pretty fast. Also, Spike did stick around from season 4-7, giving more time to built the relationship, so once comes s7, Buffy had a lot of love for him. Faith skipped town in s3, only to come back middle s7, which didn't give a lot of time to re-built any type of relationship by that point. And the longer you wait, I find the more bitter you get.

I think the scene that sums up there relationship the best is in s3 when Buffy sees Faith in a coma. It's very obvious that Buffy still has some love for Faith, but at that point the line was crossed a bit too far. I don't think Buffy will ever be able to forgive Faith. I also don't think she understand Faith very well at times, so that doesn't help. Those two girls are the perfect example of two friends that had a very explosive relationship and when in the "up" of the relation were very close, but when in the "down" part were at complete opposite side of the spectrum.

Ok, I'm going to shut up now, because when I start talking about Buffy and Faith, I tend to go a bit overboard 😛

 

[Robb Stark]

Well, there's a very simple answer to this. Spike didn't have a soul when he committed his crimes. Faith did. Spike didn't have a real choice. Faith did. Everything Faith did in S3 and S4 was her fault. Murdering innocent people (and I'm not just talking about The Mayor's deputy, which was an accident), deliberately targeting Willow and Angel just to get to Buffy, trying to strangle Xander for doing nothing but trying to help, actively trying to destroy Sunnydale just because she needs to feel needed, manipulating and playing Riley just to screw with him, stealing Buffy's body, torturing Wes. All of that, ALL of it, was Faith's fault.

There were very extenuating circumstances with Spike. There weren't with Faith. Now, Faith did a lot to come back from the brink. She owned up to what she did (with a ton of help from Angel) and got back on the right path, but Buffy's reaction in S7 to her initially is completely understandable.

 

[Kean]

I think this speech from Buffy in Sanctuary sums it up nicely:

I gave you every chance! I tried so hard to help you, and you spat on me. My life was just something for you to play with. Angel - Riley - anything that you could take from me - you took. I've lost battles before - but nobody else has -ever- made me a victim.

 

[itssmiletime]

Because she's a gigantic hypocrite

Although understandable, it's incredibly hypocritical on buffy's part. She says to Wood that she has no time for personal vendettas and the 'mission that matters' yet she treats Faith like crap. And I think it's because she is scared that Faith will take things away from her again. It makes sense- Spike is Buffy's own little cheerleader and gutless suckup who still wears the dead slayer's freakin' coat. He may not be culperable for his crimes, but that doesn't mean he isn't still rotten, whereas S7 Faith, is not.

So I do think it is because Buffy is more likely to be kinder to people who will follow her blindly. Faith told Buffy in Empty Places that she refused to be Buffy's 'lapdog' and I think that's true. S7 Buffy can't handle it.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

She was a complete idiot when it came to Spike and a gigantic hypocrite, but at the same time, if it had been Faith hanging around the group for 4 years she would have been the same way to Faith I'm sure.

But by taking huge gaps in between seeing her, her anger just picks up where it left off.

 

[white avenger]

I think this speech from Buffy in Sanctuary sums it up nicely:

I gave you every chance! I tried so hard to help you, and you spat on me. My life was just something for you to play with. Angel - Riley - anything that you could take from me - you took. I've lost battles before - but nobody else has -ever- made me a victim.

But isn't that pretty much what Spike did, or attempted to do in "Seeing Red?"

I would think that Spike's attack would have been a much more personal, therefore harder to forgive, thing that anything that Faith ever did, and, as soon as she found out about the soul, Spike was pretty much forgiven. Granted, Faith did all of her crimes while in full possession of her soul, but, aside from the one accidental death that started her slide downhill, and her subsequent denial, everything that she did was while under the influence of someone every bit as charming and deceptive as the First Evil ever hoped to be. Plus, unlike Spike, as so many of his detractors like to point out, Faith actually voluntarily submitted herself for punishment, and was, apparently, fully intending to serve the extent of her sentence, until she was needed to help recover Angel's soul, and then to help fight the First Evil.

It just seems strange tome that someone could be so instantly forgiving of one person's crimes and offenses, while remaining so unforgiving of someone else's.

Just a random thought that just occurred to me, but, could it possibly have anything to do with the fact that, while Spike only ATTEMPTED to violate Buffy's body, Faith actually did, and in a much deeper, more personal manner than anything that Spike could ever have done? Maybe that's the crime that Buffy truly finds unforgivable.

 

[Kean]

But isn't that pretty much what Spike did, or attempted to do in "Seeing Red?"

I would think that Spike's attack would have been a much more personal, therefore harder to forgive, thing that anything that Faith ever did, and, as soon as she found out about the soul, Spike was pretty much forgiven. Granted, Faith did all of her crimes while in full possession of her soul, but, aside from the one accidental death that started her slide downhill, and her subsequent denial, everything that she did was while under the influence of someone every bit as charming and deceptive as the First Evil ever hoped to be. Plus, unlike Spike, as so many of his detractors like to point out, Faith actually voluntarily submitted herself for punishment, and was, apparently, fully intending to serve the extent of her sentence, until she was needed to help recover Angel's soul, and then to help fight the First Evil.

It just seems strange tome that someone could be so instantly forgiving of one person's crimes and offenses, while remaining so unforgiving of someone else's.

Just a random thought that just occurred to me, but, could it possibly have anything to do with the fact that, while Spike only ATTEMPTED to violate Buffy's body, Faith actually did, and in a much deeper, more personal manner than anything that Spike could ever have done? Maybe that's the crime that Buffy truly finds unforgivable.

I think it is a lot more complex than that. Buffy found Faith pretty much unforgiveable once she tried to kill Angel. She nearly killed Faith for that. Everyone has that one person that they just cannot see past, or get around. I think there is a significant part of Buffy that doesn't want to forgive Faith. Faith, in possession of a soul, and (initially) Buffy's trust tried to: help bring on the Ascension, try to kill Angel, held her mother hostage, took over her body, and slept with her boyfriend. I don't think Buffy has ever put herself out there for someone, with pure intentions, and have that turned back in her face. When she tried to help Faith, she really tried. She really wanted to help her.

Not only that, there was some real truth in Faith's words about Buffy becoming her and that scares Buffy. I think Buffy feels like she needs to keep that distance between her and Faith. Though, it must be said, Buffy has done some truly terrible things to Faith too and I think keeping her distance and not forgiving Faith allows her to avoid dealing with her actions against Faith.

 

[Robb Stark]

[MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION],

Buffy makes it very, very clear throughout the series that she views what Spike and Angel do without a soul as not their fault or responsibility. She says that many, many times. What occurs in "Seeing Red" obviously falls into that sphere. She has a pretty black-and-white perspective when it comes to her vampires and their souls. There are no complications like that with Faith and the things she did.

Because she's a gigantic hypocrite

Although understandable, it's incredibly hypocritical on buffy's part. She says to Wood that she has no time for personal vendettas and the 'mission that matters' yet she treats Faith like crap. And I think it's because she is scared that Faith will take things away from her again. It makes sense- Spike is Buffy's own little cheerleader and gutless suckup who still wears the dead slayer's freakin' coat. He may not be culperable for his crimes, but that doesn't mean he isn't still rotten, whereas S7 Faith, is not.

So I do think it is because Buffy is more likely to be kinder to people who will follow her blindly. Faith told Buffy in Empty Places that she refused to be Buffy's 'lapdog' and I think that's true. S7 Buffy can't handle it.

Interesting points. However, to be fair, Buffy hardly treats Faith like crap for the bulk of the season. She punches Faith while she's fighting Spike and obviously they disagree in "Empty Places", but for the most part beyond that they're amicable.

 

[EffyStonem]

Short answer - because Joss is an idiot and a blind Spuffy shipper and wanted Spike and Buffy to reach a place of "trust and understanding" (Because, you know, after someone has attempted to rape you it is perfectly normal to trust and understand them).

Long answer - because Buffy is still suffering from the aftermath of an abusive relationship, which means that she doesn't completely see herself as a victim with regards to Spike. Victims of abusive relationships can take much longer to view themselves as true victims than if they have been abused by someone who is not close to them. This is why Buffy is able to treat Faith with contempt and anger but not Spike; she is still emotionally invested in Spike and thanks to the abuse he put her through, she is still too broken to realise how unhealthy this investment is. She does not have this problem with Faith because she has never cared as much nor been as close to Faith as she was/is to Spike.

 

[white avenger]

Short answer - because Joss is an idiot and a blind Spuffy shipper and wanted Spike and Buffy to reach a place of "trust and understanding" (Because, you know, after someone has attempted to rape you it is perfectly normal to trust and understand them).

Joss has stated on many occasions that Angel and Buffy are THE couple, so, as much as I may disagree with that statement, it totally disqualifies him to join the ranks of the Spuffy Shippers. I will agree, however, that Season 7 is certainly the most Spuffy supportive season of the entire televised series. And it has been established since way back in Season 1 that a vampire with a soul is a totally different character than that same vampire minus the soul. Once Buffy learned about Spike's soul, anything that Spike in in "Seeing Red" or anywhere else prior to Season 7 became irrelevant. She had no trouble forgiving Spike, because, as far as she was concerned, the Spike who tried to rape her the year before and the Spike who returned to Sunnydale with his soul were not the same person.

Sadly, she couldn't see the new, reformed Faith in the same light as the new, reformed Spike.

 

[EVIL UU]

Because Spike only tried but it was Faith who actually raped her. If Faith had any sort of righteousness, decency, integrity left in her she'd have never came back to Sunnydale. Because Buffy has the right to never see her again, OK? And whose brilliant idea it was to bring Faith back to Sunnydale anyway? Willow, of course, another rapist.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

I think the biggest reason is that Buffy is sensitive to the notion that creatures without souls do--you know--evil things whereas she expects those born with the capacity to recognize right from wrong to do so.

Before Spike she'd already had experience in forgiving Angel after he'd been Angelus. Again, Buffy is fairly consistent: try to hurt her while soulless and she'll chalk it up to your nature. Get a soul and she'll regard you as a new person who deserves a "second" chance.

Obviously this isn't the case with Faith. Faith went from ally to enemy. Buffy doesn't really account for any kind of psychic state when considering whether to hold someone responsible for his/her evil deeds which is perhaps arguably inconsistent considering that there are those which are actually sort of akin to being soulless( ex. sociopathic disorders such as antisocial personality disorder: a quick google search shows me a lot of Faith's characteristics). But that's all really complicated stuff of course for another thread re holding humans accountable for their "soulless" behavior in light of the fact that we don't do so for vamps.

 

[EffyStonem]

Joss has stated on many occasions that Angel and Buffy are THE couple, so, as much as I may disagree with that statement, it totally disqualifies him to join the ranks of the Spuffy Shippers. I will agree, however, that Season 7 is certainly the most Spuffy supportive season of the entire televised series.

I will have to find some quotes (I know they're out there) but as far as I was aware, Joss had moved on from Bangel and has been saying for the last decade or so that he supports Spuffy.

And it has been established since way back in Season 1 that a vampire with a soul is a totally different character than that same vampire minus the soul. Once Buffy learned about Spike's soul, anything that Spike in in "Seeing Red" or anywhere else prior to Season 7 became irrelevant.

Um, no. Just - no. This whole "separate entities" thing is a crock. I used to buy into it because Angelus appeared to be vastly different from Angel, but it just makes no sense if it were true. If the demon and the soul are truly separate entities, then why would Angel or Spike ever need to atone for anything? How would Human Darla remember anything she had done as a vampire, given that her soul wasn't present during her 400+ years of terror? Why would Souled Spike love Buffy with the intensity of non-souled Spike, given that he would never have met her before?

The soul vs. non-soul thing is very murky, but I don't like the "separate entities" angle, because it alleviates any and all guilt and responsibility for one's actions. I like to think of it as two sides of the same coin; the light (soul) and dark (non-souled). Same impulses, same personality traits, they just come out in different ways depending on whether the vamp is souled or not.

 

[white avenger]

I will have to find some quotes (I know they're out there) but as far as I was aware, Joss had moved on from Bangel and has been saying for the last decade or so that he supports Spuffy.


Um, no. Just - no. This whole "separate entities" thing is a crock. I used to buy into it because Angelus appeared to be vastly different from Angel, but it just makes no sense if it were true. If the demon and the soul are truly separate entities, then why would Angel or Spike ever need to atone for anything? How would Human Darla remember anything she had done as a vampire, given that her soul wasn't present during her 400+ years of terror? Why would Souled Spike love Buffy with the intensity of non-souled Spike, given that he would never have met her before?

The soul vs. non-soul thing is very murky, but I don't like the "separate entities" angle, because it alleviates any and all guilt and responsibility for one's actions. I like to think of it as two sides of the same coin; the light (soul) and dark (non-souled). Same impulses, same personality traits, they just come out in different ways depending on whether the vamp is souled or not.

If Joss has switched ships, it's news to me, and probably most of the other fans who follow the Bangel/Spuffy debate. I'm not saying that it's impossible, just that I don't think so.

As for the vampire with the soul being a different character than that same vampire without a soul, I personally tend to agree with you. It makes little or no sense whatsoever. It is, however, canon in the Buffyverse, as dictated by Joss and his writing staff, so that's gospel, not open for discussion, carved in stone, his way or the highway, settled. Therefore, if Angel isn't Angelus, then Spike with a soul isn't the same character as Spike without a soul, despite the fact that there isn't any name change in his case. Neither vampire while in possession of his soul is responsible for anything done prior to attaining that soul. Why they continue to feel guilt for their pre-soul activities is strictly for dramatic purposes.

 

[Robb Stark]

Um, no. Just - no. This whole "separate entities" thing is a crock. I used to buy into it because Angelus appeared to be vastly different from Angel, but it just makes no sense if it were true. If the demon and the soul are truly separate entities, then why would Angel or Spike ever need to atone for anything? How would Human Darla remember anything she had done as a vampire, given that her soul wasn't present during her 400+ years of terror? Why would Souled Spike love Buffy with the intensity of non-souled Spike, given that he would never have met her before?

The soul vs. non-soul thing is very murky, but I don't like the "separate entities" angle, because it alleviates any and all guilt and responsibility for one's actions. I like to think of it as two sides of the same coin; the light (soul) and dark (non-souled). Same impulses, same personality traits, they just come out in different ways depending on whether the vamp is souled or not.

I completely disagree with this. Like, totally (which is bound to happen from time to time, as we agree on most other things). [MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION] and I get into it every few months, the most recent of which was just a few days ago in the "Should Buffy have explained to Angel" thread. I posted the following, which I think sums up my thoughts really well:

To be honest, I have never understood how people can see Angel's situation like this. That if an invading force completely took over your body and did horrendous things (exactly what happened to Angel), that even if you didn't have a hand in it you wouldn't have felt responsible. I don't think Angel has anything to feel guilty over, but I understand why he does. Just like I don't think Spike in S7 and beyond has anything to feel guilty over, but I understand why he does.

This happened frequently in fiction. The Black Lantern storyline in DC Comics, Superman being mind-controlled (multiple times), Clark being infected with red kyptonite in Smallville, there are countless examples I can think of. None of those listed were responsible for their actions, but they feel guilt and remorse because it still happened with their hands, their bodies, and they still remember every second of it. That's noble, and it shows very much that they're good people.

Frankly, I think it would be more than a little weird if someone who went through that felt nothing. So yes, Angel, Spike and the rest can have it both ways. And if Angel didn't recognize that at all, then why would he have said what he said to Faith?

And as WA has said, the canon of what we're shown backs this up. You're right, it is murky at certain instances (I thought your point about ensouled Spike loving Buffy as much as soulless Spike was a good one), but it's shown that the demon was responsible, not the man/woman. Angel says as much to Faith in S3 when he says that he "never had a choice".

Angel/Spike/Darla feel guilt about it when they have their souls back because they're inherently good people. In a situation like that, the logical explanation of them not needing to feel that guilt doesn't really matter.

 

[Mischlings]

In a situation like that, the logical explanation of them not needing to feel that guilt doesn't really matter.

I think here you've managed to hit exactly on something that bugs me to no end when people analyze things that happen in fiction (and the world in general) - in a lot of cases, logic doesn't mean anything to people when they're making decisions. While people are capable of logic, they don't always use it - it has to be balanced against a lot of other things. Add that to the fact that the people who tend to overanalyze are very logical people, that just exacerbates the problem.

The answer to why Buffy treats Spike and Faith differently is because there's a different emotional context to her interactions with both of them. Plus, we're thinking a lot more deeply about it than Buffy likely does - she's never really shown dealing with Faith's actions other than when she confronts her about it in Sanctuary, so I doubt that she ever consciously realized or had pointed out to her that she was treating the two of them so differently when she might not have had reason to (plus, Faith probably thinks that she deserves it, in a way, but that's really reading into it for something that I haven't watched in a while), so... Yeah, I think that says all that I need to say for the time being.

 

[Robb Stark]

I think here you've managed to hit exactly on something that bugs me to no end when people analyze things that happen in fiction (and the world in general) - in a lot of cases, logic doesn't mean anything to people when they're making decisions. While people are capable of logic, they don't always use it - it has to be balanced against a lot of other things. Add that to the fact that the people who tend to overanalyze are very logical people, that just exacerbates the problem.

Well, the point I was trying to make was that, to me anyways, it makes perfect sense that Angel and Spike feel guilt for what has happened without being responsible for it. I think from what we're shown in the canon, that tracks.

 

[Blaze]

Because Spike only tried but it was Faith who actually raped her. If Faith had any sort of righteousness, decency, integrity left in her she'd have never came back to Sunnydale. Because Buffy has the right to never see her again, OK? And whose brilliant idea it was to bring Faith back to Sunnydale anyway? Willow, of course, another rapist.

How and when exactly did Faith rape Buffy?

 

[Mischlings]

Well, the point I was trying to make was that, to me anyways, it makes perfect sense that Angel and Spike feel guilt for what has happened without being responsible for it. I think from what we're shown in the canon, that tracks.

Yeah, I did my usual taking things in a different direction, get distracted in the middle of what I'm saying, and then bringing it back in a different way. But yeah, I agree with you fully about what you were talking about, so there's not really any need to say more about it.