Spike and his demon

[bespangeled]

And demon-ed too.
See it in Darla, I see it in Angel.
Neverending conflict - demon part vs soul part. You slip a little and demon is on a loose.
Soul wants to save an inocent victim, demon wants to kill her.
So why did Spike's demon suddenly give up on happy meals on legs so quickly?

Spike's demon made the choice to go to Africa and fight to win a soul. It was a gift, something his demon wanted, so there is less of a schism there. Yes, he was halfway along the journey from being chipped. People he knew and cared about had gone from being happy meals to having names. Whatever he might have blustered, even without a soul I don't think that he would kill Xander. He was involved, and he was needed, and he was love's bitch making reparations. This saved him 100+ years of alternately impersonal partying and extensive brooding.

Angelus was completely obsessed with destroying people. He spent huge amounts of time creating and inflicting the worst tortures her could conceive. It's a conscious and deliberate horrific evil, with each detail remembered. By our standards Angelus would be a psychopath - deadly, without conscience and remorse, a Hannibal Lector. He was the type of killer who carves up an entire family for fun. Since so much of that planning goes on in Angel's mind, it's not surprising he is overwhelmed with guilt. It's not just his past, it's also his nature once he is souled.

Spike is not much for self reflection - he likes action. His atrocities reflect that. He definitely raped, murdered, tortured and engaged in other wacky activities. After all, he was second only to Angelus. But he just liked the power, the action, the blood and the screams, and he was capable of making connection with a few individuals in his life. I'd say that in some ways he was a weird demon - turning his mother to save her rather than wiping out his village. As Angelus said, he was a little dim. He'd be more of a sociopath - the kind of killer who takes an AK47 to the local fast food joint. It's not the individual deaths, it's not about what they suffer.

But, most important, when he is hunting for a fight on his own he looks for the toughest opponent. Hence - killer of slayers - the only humans who think that killing vampires is a duty. He likes to compete, against himself if there is no one else around. He's an adrenalin junky.

Together, beyond their natures and the different ways they got their souls - they both had Buffy. She was the light for them. And Spike had Angel - he knew a vampire could get a soul. He knew that a vampire could survive a soul. Had that not been a reality then he would never have even dreamed of getting one. He was already part way there - he had already made this into part of his romantic (I mean the excesses of the period in which he was raised.) nature. The big gesture is what Romance is all about - it's positively Byronesque. Then there was an apocalypse - captivity, fighting, action, canoodling, and fiery death. Not much time to brood, and not a person to show his vulnerabilities. 

My guess about measurements is at least to want killing humans and have a bloodlust because they are basically your food.
And Spike slips every single time with his chip during 4-5-6 season - he pretty much hurted everyone his demon was allowed to hurt - another demons and Buffy. That's why I am curious where is all that gone after a soul.
And about the gentle nature of William I always wondered about Dru at this occasion. Sure, she was turned being crazy and all but as a human she was a sweetest thing - so where did her desire to kill children a to torture people (at least we saw she enjoyed torturing Angel) come from? 
And by the way I am a little bit confused about the concept of a "real Spike" - just rewached Never Leave Me from 7 season.
In this episode he asked Buffy to kill him and said that she never met the "real" him - that Spike who killed and probably raped the girls Dawn's age.
And then in Destiny he said to Angel again that he never saw the "real" Spike and something about his own reflection.
First, he says that he is capable of horrible things and then he says that he did it only because Angel(us) made him a monster.
Contradiction?

He hurt them and he helped them. He conspired with Adam, then he dedicated himself to Sunnydale and Dawn after Buffy died. As for the Angel comment - he told Angel that Dru sired him but Angelus made him a monster. So it's not surprising he tried to warn Buffy once he realized he could become that again - if nothing else he'd be aware that he would have no more control than season 2 Angelus. I don't see a contradiction - I just think Angel made him a useful member of the group. I also think this is a pretty newly souled demon. He still has the grieving process to go through, and to realize what he has done, which happens when Dana takes him in. 

Spike is the only character in the Buffyverse where getting his soul makes him less conflicted than he was before. Unlike any other person who has darkness inside them, whether it be Angel, Faith, Giles, Wesley, Willow or even Buffy, Spike seems utterly unaffected by the presence of personal demons (whether literal or figurative).
He fights, he snarks, he smokes and shags and...that's it. No conflict, no complexity, no interest. This is to show how 'evolved' his is compared to Angel.

Add to that that both demon Spike and human Spike are in agreement on so many things; they both love Buffy, they both love violence and they both see themselves primary as victims of other people, mostly women. They are more sinned against than sinning, and a have a strong self-pitying streak.

Soulless Spike blames almost all his problems on the women in his life, his Mum, Drusilla, Buffy, etc

Soulled Spike blames being turned into a perpetual victim by his Mum (who made him weak, with overly romantic expectations) and into a monster by Angelus, who taught Spike everything he knew about being a Big Bad vampire in those 20 years or so.
Spike sees himself (accuratly in many respects) as shaped by the bigger personalities around him, so therefore he can abdicate responsibility because he's not really to blame for his actions, other people are.

I agree with a fair amount of this - I just give it a different context. First off there are months of being crazy in the basement, so his soul was not a problem free issue. Yes, he held on to his identity - I believe it was all he had. He did pretty much what newly souled Angelus did - except for feeding on humans for a few years after getting the soul. But looking at the things you list - he does fight a demon to help Buffy, and he does train fighter, oh and he fights for his life against Robin Wood. He snarks, but very little and only when provoked - like an attempt to murder him. He does smoke, but I have absolutely no reason to think he was shagging anyone. Just like Buffy is not much with the damselling, Spike is not much with the brooding.

I have no idea of the where you got the idea that he sees himself as a victim of women. He had completely buried the memory of his mother. he was upset when Dru left him, like Willow was upset when Oz left - except this was after an entire century. So he got drunk one episode and pissed and moaned. As for Buffy - when does he blame her? However self pity is part of his bag of tricks. Since he has only been souled a matter of months he hasn't really had time to develop other coping mechanisms.

Angel is stable - like tempered steel. Spike is mercurial - he follows his blood and makes a lot of wrong bloody calls.

Manipulation.
Spike wants Buffy to kill him so he tells her how much of a threat he is (or possibly so she'll take pity on him by playing the tortured victim, he knew how that played thanks to Angel), with Angel it's blame. Pour all that anger that the demon part of him had towards Angelus and use it in the fight. It also plays into how Angel sees the Angelus part of himself, responsible not only for his own crimes but the crimes of his 'creations'- Drusilla, Spike, Penn, etc.
Working on Angel's self-doubt/loathing/ and guilt Spike manages to win the fight, it's the same tactic that unsoulled Spike used a few times before on Buffy (See 'Harsh Light of Day') to undermine her confidence and beat her up.

I'm kinda surprised....actually no, I'm not. So you say he was telling Buffy all the terrible things he had done (which she hadn't even asked about) and insisting that she had to kill him because it was only a ploy to make her feel guilty and let him live. Interesting way of seeing things - and it fits with your expressed agenda. Spike also manages to victimize Angel too - I never realized how incredibly powerful he is. Angel, with over a century more experience in being souled and in handling Spike, was waylaid, abused and unable to fight because Spike was so much stronger psychologically as well as physically and he said mean things. Damn - you're saying that of the 3 characters we're talking about, Spike is by far and away the strongest. Impressive.

 

[Firstina]

Spike is the only character in the Buffyverse where getting his soul makes him less conflicted than he was before. Unlike any other person who has darkness inside them, whether it be Angel, Faith, Giles, Wesley, Willow or even Buffy, Spike seems utterly unaffected by the presence of personal demons (whether literal or figurative).
He fights, he snarks, he smokes and shags and...that's it. No conflict, no complexity, no interest. This is to show how 'evolved' his is compared to Angel.

It seems like you really don't like the guy, do you?
About less conflicted part - yeah, I am really disappointed - it looks just like a waste of a vampire for me. What's the point of having a vampire in the verse with such interesting mythology aka demon/soul dichotomy and don't explore it at all? Remove the vampire part from Spike and almost nothing changes - he could be an average demon, okay sexy human-like demon, and it would be just fine. Remove the vampire part about Angel's story and everything is falling apart, IMO.

Spike sees himself (accuratly in many respects) as shaped by the bigger personalities around him, so therefore he can abdicate responsibility because he's not really to blame for his actions, other people are.

Yeah, you just putted in words the most unattractive part I never realised I hated about Spike - he is whining too much and blames everybody but him - Buffy, you used me, Angel, you made me a monster! Sure, buddy, it's nothing to do with you.

Manipulation.

Oh, never thought about it that way. If we continue that way I'll start to hate this guy😉 And before that I only hated him in season 5 of Ats for his attitude towards Angel but loved him at the same time because he kept Angel going even if it was based solely on a prosaic sense of rivarly.

 

[thetopher]

First off there are months of being crazy in the basement, so his soul was not a problem free issue.

Yeah and? What's your point? He gets over it and doesn't really change. The person who started the thread wants to know why there is no permentant change. like with any other character that's wrestled with their darker selves.

Yes, he held on to his identity - I believe it was all he had.

That's true. Spike is basically all affectation from 'Get It Done' onwards. It's why he puts on the coat after all. The persona of Spike is all he has because he doesn't have a strong self-identity. Your basically agreeing with me here.

But looking at the things you list - he does fight a demon to help Buffy, and he does train fighter, oh and he fights for his life against Robin Wood.

Spike himself says that violence 'is good for the soul' in 'Get It Done'.
It's clear that both souled and unsoulled Spike both enjoy violence, there's no conflict there.

He snarks, but very little and only when provoked - like an attempt to murder him.

He snarks at Andrew, who to my knowledge didn't try and kill him, and Giles before 'LMPTM', he ignores everybody else for the most part. He snarks at Faith, he snarks at Angel- it's what he does to people. It's how he says hello.

He does smoke, but I have absolutely no reason to think he was shagging anyone.

Pretty much the first thing once he gets his body back in Angel 'Destiny' is try and shag soulless Harmony, his ex.

I have no idea of the where you got the idea that he sees himself as a victim of women.

From 'Crush'

SPIKE: What the bleeding hell is wrong with you bloody women? What the hell does it take? Why do you bitches torture me?'
This is directed at Buffy and Drusilla
later on that same scene- SPIKE: (to Dru) It's your fault. You're to blame for all this, you know.... If you hadn't left me for that Chaos Demon, I'd never come back here. Wouldn't have this sodding chip in my skull... (rounding on Buffy) And you... You wouldn't be able to touch me. Because this-- this thing with you -- it's wrong! I know it! Not a complete idiot! (gesturing to his heart) You think I like having you here?! Destroying everything that was me until all that's left is you in a dead shell. You say you hate it but you won't leave. What I should just do is get rid of both of you -- Burn you! Cut you into little pieces! So there won't be any more bints to cock things up for--

There are numerous other examples, also in the comics soulled Spike blames his Mum for giving him romantic expectations and coddling him to much from the world. He's still always the victim of women...or Angel.

I'm kinda surprised....actually no, I'm not. So you say he was telling Buffy all the terrible things he had done (which she hadn't even asked about) and insisting that she had to kill him because it was only a ploy to make her feel guilty and let him live. Interesting way of seeing things - and it fits with your expressed agenda.

I only saids that it was a possible explanation to explain the cognotive dissonance of how Spike sees himself. Also aren't you always the one that espouses that Spike learned everything about being soulled from Angel? Which is why he moves along his path so quickly? Here I am agreeing with you. Spike may very well (as in 'it's a possibility') be trying to play the Angel card. If he was then it worked.

My 'expressed agenda'? 😵 You make it sound like its a conspiricy when I'm actually just voicing my opinion. Get a grip.

Spike also manages to victimize Angel too - I never realized how incredibly powerful he is. Angel, with over a century more experience in being souled and in handling Spike, was waylaid, abused and unable to fight because Spike was so much stronger psychologically as well as physically and he said mean things

Nope. He, briefly, manages to get the upper hand because Spike does to Angel what he has done to Buffy, pray on those insecurities that he sees. Aren't you always saying that Spike knows Angel so very well?
Angel isn't used to somebody else playing on his guilt during a fight, although it has happened in the past with both Drusilla and Darla (Season 2) and it doesn't tend to go well for Angel. He tends to crumble a little.

And boy are you using some emotive language. 'Abused?' Spike simply saw a weakness and exploited it, it's his way. Angel doubted himself and his role afterwards for a while, then he gets over it and consequently Spike becomes a follower again.

Damn - you're saying that of the 3 characters we're talking about, Spike is by far and away the strongest. Impressive.

Actually I'm talking about more than just three characters. Any character who has darkness inside them (which includes a whole lot more characters than just Angel) struggle with that, a lot of them still do, Spike does not. He is the only one that does not.
Buffy usually smacks Spike around when he tries to work on her insecurities. She does so in S2 and 4, but in S6 she isn't strong enough.
This is what Spike does, if he sees a weakness he'll exploit it to the best of his ability. It happened in 'Destiny' too.

Spike is not strong, he's actually incredibly weak psychologically speaking. He survives by clinging on to somebody stronger, somebody with vision or purpose, who will take care of him. First it was Angelus/Dru. Without Dru he became directionless, hanging around Sunnydfale chipped and neutered. Then it was Buffy for a long time, then it was Angel again, now in the comics its back to Buffy.
I don't see that as a particularly impressive achievment.

 

[Silverspike]

"It seems like you really don't like the guy, do you?"

Yeah and she's not the only one. 😀

 

[thetopher]

It seems like you really don't like the guy, do you?
About less conflicted part - yeah, I am really disappointed - it looks just like a waste of a vampire for me.

No I don't like soulled Spike. Mainly because I think he's dull and a missed opportunity. The best way to put it would be that I like the journey, but not the destination.

Yeah, you just putted in words the most unattractive part I never realised I hated about Spike - he is whining too much and blames everybody but him - Buffy, you used me, Angel, you made me a monster! Sure, buddy, it's nothing to do with you.

Spike cries victim more than any other character. It's not an aspect of his character that I admire and its very present in both his souled and unsouled states- hence a harmonising of demon and human. Their on the same page.

Oh, never thought about it that way.

I do thinks its manipulation, either to get Buffy to kill him or the opposite? Which is more likely? I do genuinly think that at this point that Spike wants to die, wants Buffy to end it all- maybe its a moment of clarity realising the evils of what his demon is capable of. If it is then that realisation goes away pretty quickly.

 

[white avenger]

I think that what makes Spike somehow different from Angel, especially, and Anya, too, to a lesser degree is Buffy.

Angel is tortured by his memories of the murdering monster that he formerly was because his soul was a curse, and we was constantly told that by the most important person to him, Darla. She's constantly telling him how the Gypsies destroyed him, ruined him, made him less of a man than he was before. Even after receiving his soul, Angel still tried to stay with his companions, to share as much of their life style as his conscience would allow, choosing murderers and rapists as his prey instead of babies and virgins. Darla wasn't fooled, and took every opportunity (or at least, that's the impression that I got from the flashbacks that we got) to remind him of her disappointment with the kind of nearly impotent vampire he had become. He left her and spent decades pretty much alone (I always suspected that he crashed Elvis' party, or just plain lied about being there) brooding about his curse and what it cost him.

Then, we have Spike, whose guilt and regret over what his monster had done drove him insane. He somehow manages to get back to Sunnydale, still tortured and living on rats, until the most important person in his life tells him that regaining his soul made him, not less, but more, that he was actually a better man with a soul than he ever was without it. Who, instead of rejecting him, protected him, even loved him, despite the wishes of the closest thing to family that she had.

How could Spike NOT have been different from Angel?

 

[Skanky Vamp]

First it was Angelus/Dru. Without Dru he became directionless, hanging around Sunnydfale chipped and neutered. Then it was Buffy for a long time, then it was Angel again, now in the comics its back to Buffy.
I don't see that as a particularly impressive achievment.

Actually first it was his mum. He has never had to live 'on his own' the way Angel had to. Or at least for an extended period of time. 

Then, we have Spike

But Spike and Angel are more similar then what you write. Much like when Angel first received his boon he attempted to still assimilate with those around him and act as though he was the same. That is exactly what Spike did by misleading Buffy as to why he was acting the way he was and then physically assaulting Anya when she saw he had a soul. So both tried to remain, or at least appear, as the monster they were. Spike is no different than Angel in that regard.

 

[Firstina]

How could Spike NOT have been different from Angel?

Those points you made answer the quiestion why they react the way they do. Like, Angel is brooding all the time, and Spike is indifferent most of the time.
Those are the circumstanses which formed them but didn't affect the demon directly - you can brood like Angel and still want to rip the heads of inocent people or don't give a shit like Spike and have a bloodlust or something.
Like I have a confirmation from Angel that he still enjoyes his murderous/erotic dreams when Penn is near. Or when Darla uses this creepy powder on him and he starts acting in very disturbing way towards Cordy. It's his demon manifestation. He can stop brooding about it but nothing will ever change - part of him is a demon and it always will be a risk for the people around him. After all, he is still a vampire.
The trick is as I see my Angel that he is pretty capable of Angelus deeds without loosing his soul because he is a part of him. Just see how Angelus-style cold-blooded he is when he is preparing to torture this don't-remember-his-name lawyer after Connor's kidnapping.
Another perfect example - when even Darla can't recognize him before he sets them on fire - that's the closest Angel's step to the edge of Angelus - the mixture of both demon and soul.
With Spike it's nothing. No desire to kill a Slayer - sure he loves Buffy, but maybe Dana could evoke some desire to get another Slayer to his collection. No bloodlust, no desire to use some spikes to torture people - and a demon who used to like all of those is still inside of him.

 

[white avenger]

So both tried to remain, or at least appear, as the monster they were. Spike is no different than Angel in that regard.

Except in the matter of duration and degree. Spike tried to pretend that he was still evil for a matter of months, at the most, and only punched Anya once,whereas Angel tried to fit in with Darla and the others for what must have been years, and continued feeding on humans, even if those humans were the dregs of society. Granted, Spike had the chip, which prevented him from killing humans, but, again, only for a short time after regaining his soul. Afterward, there wasn't anything to have stopped him, beyond his resolve and his feelings for Buffy.

 

[bespangeled]

Yeah and? What's your point? He gets over it and doesn't really change. The person who started the thread wants to know why there is no permentant change. like with any other character that's wrestled with their darker selves.

That's true. Spike is basically all affectation from 'Get It Done' onwards. It's why he puts on the coat after all. The persona of Spike is all he has because he doesn't have a strong self-identity. Your basically agreeing with me here.



Spike himself says that violence 'is good for the soul' in 'Get It Done'.
It's clear that both souled and unsoulled Spike both enjoy violence, there's no conflict there.



He snarks at Andrew, who to my knowledge didn't try and kill him, and Giles before 'LMPTM', he ignores everybody else for the most part. He snarks at Faith, he snarks at Angel- it's what he does to people. It's how he says hello.



Pretty much the first thing once he gets his body back in Angel 'Destiny' is try and shag soulless Harmony, his ex.



From 'Crush'

SPIKE: What the bleeding hell is wrong with you bloody women? What the hell does it take? Why do you bitches torture me?'
This is directed at Buffy and Drusilla
later on that same scene- SPIKE: (to Dru) It's your fault. You're to blame for all this, you know.... If you hadn't left me for that Chaos Demon, I'd never come back here. Wouldn't have this sodding chip in my skull... (rounding on Buffy) And you... You wouldn't be able to touch me. Because this-- this thing with you -- it's wrong! I know it! Not a complete idiot! (gesturing to his heart) You think I like having you here?! Destroying everything that was me until all that's left is you in a dead shell. You say you hate it but you won't leave. What I should just do is get rid of both of you -- Burn you! Cut you into little pieces! So there won't be any more bints to cock things up for--

There are numerous other examples, also in the comics soulled Spike blames his Mum for giving him romantic expectations and coddling him to much from the world. He's still always the victim of women...or Angel.



I only saids that it was a possible explanation to explain the cognotive dissonance of how Spike sees himself. Also aren't you always the one that espouses that Spike learned everything about being soulled from Angel? Which is why he moves along his path so quickly? Here I am agreeing with you. Spike may very well (as in 'it's a possibility') be trying to play the Angel card. If he was then it worked.

My 'expressed agenda'? 😵 You make it sound like its a conspiricy when I'm actually just voicing my opinion. Get a grip.



Nope. He, briefly, manages to get the upper hand because Spike does to Angel what he has done to Buffy, pray on those insecurities that he sees. Aren't you always saying that Spike knows Angel so very well?
Angel isn't used to somebody else playing on his guilt during a fight, although it has happened in the past with both Drusilla and Darla (Season 2) and it doesn't tend to go well for Angel. He tends to crumble a little.

And boy are you using some emotive language. 'Abused?' Spike simply saw a weakness and exploited it, it's his way. Angel doubted himself and his role afterwards for a while, then he gets over it and consequently Spike becomes a follower again.



Actually I'm talking about more than just three characters. Any character who has darkness inside them (which includes a whole lot more characters than just Angel) struggle with that, a lot of them still do, Spike does not. He is the only one that does not.
Buffy usually smacks Spike around when he tries to work on her insecurities. She does so in S2 and 4, but in S6 she isn't strong enough.
This is what Spike does, if he sees a weakness he'll exploit it to the best of his ability. It happened in 'Destiny' too.

Spike is not strong, he's actually incredibly weak psychologically speaking. He survives by clinging on to somebody stronger, somebody with vision or purpose, who will take care of him. First it was Angelus/Dru. Without Dru he became directionless, hanging around Sunnydfale chipped and neutered. Then it was Buffy for a long time, then it was Angel again, now in the comics its back to Buffy.
I don't see that as a particularly impressive achievment.[/QUOTE]

I get the point - you don't like Spike. That's fine. Personally I think this is radically different from season 2 Spike - the unchipped version. But then maybe I have also been manipulated. Oh, and if Spike can get Angel so far off his game by telling the truth, then Angel has other issues beyond the cup of torment. Angel lost - no need to make excuses for him. I love him dearly but he hadn't seen Spike fight in a century and he had no idea what he was getting into. And he is more than capable of dishing it right back. I love Spike and Angel - no need to put one down in order to raise one up.

I feel there is permanent change - like burning up to save the world. He hurt the girl and he went and got a soul to make sure he wouldn't do this again. Then he died, in fire, to save the world and make sure his friends all survived. You seem to be saying that was being manipulative at all times. So when he died, was he trying to make Buffy feel guilty? Getting back at Giles and Wood? Since all he does, according to your posts here, is refuse to take responsibility, acts victimized and blames everyone else then there has to be an ulterior motive for sacrificing himself.

The change is in his intent, and his need to make reparation (which you see as manipulation and still evil from all you said). I'd love to bring up how often Angel did everything you claim Spike did because, as always, you measure them by radically different standards but I know the straw men will arrive and I really don't feel like dealing with them. Suffice it to say I see both as flawed and imperfect, but strong and caring with an unbreakable bond. They know each other - who else besides Spike could understand when Lawson showed up?

As far as I know the general complaint is that there is way too much Spike in season 7 - but maybe the entire season should have been devoted to exploring Spike's reactions to his new soul. He could have brooded and wept - no too manipulative. He could have remained silent and not helped Buffy - no still too manipulative. Somehow I suspect that any changes would be discounted no matter what he didl. As for clothes - a business suit, a visit to the Gap, or just sackcloth and ashes?😀

 

[Firstina]

I get the point - you don't like Spike. That's fine. Personally I think this is radically different from season 2 Spike - the unchipped version. But then maybe I have also been manipulated. Oh, and if Spike can get Angel so far off his game by telling the truth, then Angel has other issues beyond the cup of torment. Angel lost - no need to make excuses for him. I love him dearly but he hadn't seen Spike fight in a century and he had no idea what he was getting into. And he is more than capable of dishing it right back. I love Spike and Angel - no need to put one down in order to raise one up.

Actually, I love Spike with all my love in Destiny fight. I can't help myself but he just raises the best part of Angel for me - knowing that there is maybe no light at the end of the tonnel, that maybe the Great Big Prophecy you have hope for is not even about you and still fight a good fight despite all that facts it's freaking amazing!
I find it just genius and that makes me love Spike at this point. And love Angel even more than I already did before it.
So, yeah, Spike, please, annoy Angel - that's just make him more focused and even a better man-pire from my POV.

 

[bespangeled]

Actually first it was his mum. He has never had to live 'on his own' the way Angel had to. Or at least for an extended period of time. 

But Spike and Angel are more similar then what you write. Much like when Angel first received his boon he attempted to still assimilate with those around him and act as though he was the same. That is exactly what Spike did by misleading Buffy as to why he was acting the way he was and then physically assaulting Anya when she saw he had a soul. So both tried to remain, or at least appear, as the monster they were. Spike is no different than Angel in that regard.

Keep in mind that William owned the house, and let his mother live in it. English law did not include community property. So there was an equal amount of pampering on both sides. And Angel lived with his family until he was turned, then with Darla. He did have over a century on his own - veering from the Rat Pack and Elvis wedding to brooding, and letting people die in a hotel when he could have prevented it, all the way to rescuing a puppy and finally living in rat filth.

Yes, for several years (at least 2) Angel ate humans and wanted to go back with his family. He was very much a work in progress. The same excuse is not used for Spike who is not as evolved as Angel, having been souled less than a year (but clearly that is no excuse at all). 😳 

Actually, I love Spike with all my love in Destiny fight. I can't help myself but he just raises the best part of Angel for me - knowing that there is maybe no light at the end of the tonnel, that maybe the Great Big Prophecy you have hope for is not even about you and still fight a good fight despite all that facts it's freaking amazing!
I find it just genius and that makes me love Spike at this point. And love Angel even more than I already did before it.
So, yeah, Spike, please, annoy Angel - that's just make him more focused and even a better man-pire from my POV.

Sorry - that was directed to @thetopher - and I agree that Angel and Spike are magic together. 🙂

 

[thetopher]

I get the point - you don't like Spike. That's fine.

Really? Because I'm getting the impression that you don't like it when people say unkind things about Spike. Just so you know I'm just going by little things, such as the tone of your posts.

Personally I think this is radically different from season 2 Spike - the unchipped version. But then maybe I have also been manipulated.

He helped Buffy in S2 for a girl. He helped Buffy in S5 to save a girl. He saved the world in S7. He is at peace with his demon afterwards because he doesn't beleive in atonement, he and the demon agree on lots of things, etc.
Motivation doesn't explain why Spike doesn't struggle with his darker inner self.

Oh, and if Spike can get Angel so far off his game by telling the truth, then Angel has other issues beyond the cup of torment.

What truth? That Angelus created Spike? That Angel is to blame for Spike's actions? That Buffy was thinking of Angel all the times that Spike was 'putting it to her' (really puts all the lovey dovey S7 stuff in perspective now that we know what Spike was actually thinking).
Spike is simply mouthing off and he stuck a nerve, Angel got over it and moved on.

Angel lost - no need to make excuses for him. I love him dearly but he hadn't seen Spike fight in a century and he had no idea what he was getting into. And he is more than capable of dishing it right back.

Not really making excuses. I'm drawing parallels between how unsouled and souled Spike fight using psychology.
Angel has handily beaten much tougher foes that Spike, there is a reason why he lost. The writers even make it part of the narrative of the season- Angel losing his way.

I love Spike and Angel - no need to put one down in order to raise one up.

Again, that's not really what I'm doing.

I feel there is permanent change - like burning up to save the world.

And? What has that got to do with Spike and his relationship with his demon? That is the subject of this thread after all. Spike has done good things, with and without a soul, there's no denying that. But it doesn't explain why he's so at ease with the monster inside of him.

He hurt the girl and he went and got a soul to make sure he wouldn't do this again

And yet he threatened Buffy with violence in 'Get It Done.'Besides that what's your point?
My point is that soulled Spike doesn't struggle with his darkness like almost every other character that is on the show.

You seem to be saying that was being manipulative at all times. So when he died, was he trying to make Buffy feel guilty? Getting back at Giles and Wood?

Now you're just being silly, because I never, ever said that. I gave one example where maybe Spike was manipulating Buffy. I also said that he probably wasn't, but it could be used as an explanation for the cognotive dissonance between his actions then, and his actions later on.

Since all he does, according to your posts here, is refuse to take responsibility, acts victimized and blames everyone else then there has to be an ulterior motive for sacrificing himself.

I have never said any of this. I am actually doubting your ability to read. Are you making these things up?

What I said was that, souled or unsouled, Spike blames other people for the evils he committed in the past. That is why there is no guilt eating away at Spike, he doesn't beleive in atonement because, as he sees it, he is not responsible for the bad, but is responsible for the good. He tells Faith that he reformed long before she did nad he beleives it.

The change is in his intent, and his need to make reparation (which you see as manipulation and still evil from all you said).

His intent, soulled or unsoulled, in his love of Buffy. He doesn't come back to Sunnydale to make amends (otherwise why lie about having a soul?) he comes back because of Buffy, he doesn't know where else to go.

I'd love to bring up how often Angel did everything you claim Spike did because, as always, you measure them by radically different standards but I know the straw men will arrive and I really don't feel like dealing with them.

Because this thread isn't about Angel. (the poster actually brought up Anya as an example) It's about why Spike is so...at peace with the darkness in himself while pretty much every other person who has darkness in the, whether vampire with soul, slayer, witch or Watcher, has visibly wrestled with darker impulses.

Suffice it to say I see both as flawed and imperfect, but strong and caring with an unbreakable bond.

Good for you. That's lovely but it really doesn't have anything to do with what I was talking about.

As far as I know the general complaint is that there is way too much Spike in season 7 - but maybe the entire season should have been devoted to exploring Spike's reactions to his new soul. He could have brooded and wept - no too manipulative. He could have remained silent and not helped Buffy - no still too manipulative. Somehow I suspect that any changes would be discounted no matter what he didl. As for clothes - a business suit, a visit to the Gap, or just sackcloth and ashes?

And the point of this is?
There was too much Spike in S7, he had many plots all to himself and only a fraction of those had anything to do with his soul. There was the chip, the trigger, Wood, being tortured by the First, etc.
Basically his soul isn't even an issue after 'Get It Done' when he returns to his 'normal' Spike appearance and embraces his demon.
After this he never looks back. Maybe if the writers had been a little more daring in the direction they took his character he wouldn't have turned into such a shallow creation.

 

[nightshade]

No need for insults, keep this thread civil please

 

[bespangeled]

Really? Because I'm getting the impression that you don't like it when people say unkind things about Spike. Just so you know I'm just going by little things, such as the tone of your posts.



He helped Buffy in S2 for a girl. He helped Buffy in S5 to save a girl. He saved the world in S7. He is at peace with his demon afterwards because he doesn't beleive in atonement, he and the demon agree on lots of things, etc.
Motivation doesn't explain why Spike doesn't struggle with his darker inner self.



What truth? That Angelus created Spike? That Angel is to blame for Spike's actions? That Buffy was thinking of Angel all the times that Spike was 'putting it to her' (really puts all the lovey dovey S7 stuff in perspective now that we know what Spike was actually thinking).
Spike is simply mouthing off and he stuck a nerve, Angel got over it and moved on.



Not really making excuses. I'm drawing parallels between how unsouled and souled Spike fight using psychology.
Angel has handily beaten much tougher foes that Spike, there is a reason why he lost. The writers even make it part of the narrative of the season- Angel losing his way.



Again, that's not really what I'm doing.



And? What has that got to do with Spike and his relationship with his demon? That is the subject of this thread after all. Spike has done good things, with and without a soul, there's no denying that. But it doesn't explain why he's so at ease with the monster inside of him.



And yet he threatened Buffy with violence in 'Get It Done.'Besides that what's your point?
My point is that soulled Spike doesn't struggle with his darkness like almost every other character that is on the show.



Now you're just being stupid, because I never, ever said that. I gave one example where maybe Spike was manipulating Buffy. I also said that he probably wasn't, but it could be used as an explanation for the cognotive dissonance between his actions then, and his actions later on.



I have never said any of this. I am actually doubting your ability to read. Are you making these things up?

What I said was that, souled or unsouled, Spike blames other people for the evils he committed in the past. That is why there is no guilt eating away at Spike, he doesn't beleive in atonement because, as he sees it, he is not responsible for the bad, but is responsible for the good. He tells Faith that he reformed long before she did nad he beleives it.



His intent, soulled or unsoulled, in his love of Buffy. He doesn't come back to Sunnydale to make amends (otherwise why lie about having a soul?) he comes back because of Buffy, he doesn't know where else to go.



Because this thread isn't about Angel. (the poster actually brought up Anya as an example) It's about why Spike is so...at peace with the darkness in himself while pretty much every other person who has darkness in the, whether vampire with soul, slayer, witch or Watcher, has visibly wrestled with darker impulses.



Good for you. That's lovely but it really doesn't have anything to do with what I was talking about.



And the point of this is?
There was too much Spike in S7, he had many plots all to himself and only a fraction of those had anything to do with his soul. There was the chip, the trigger, Wood, being tortured by the First, etc.
Basically his soul isn't even an issue after 'Get It Done' when he returns to his 'normal' Spike appearance and embraces his demon.
After this he never looks back. Maybe if the writers had been a little more daring in the direction they took his character he wouldn't have turned into such a shallow creation.

@thetopher - I really don't see a lot different in this reply - pretty much the same arguments you have used regularly. You may want to check the OP because she did talk about Angel. As for the rest, I respectfully disagree and I see no reason to continue. I also deeply resent being told I am being stupid.

 

[thetopher]

So we're even then, because I deeply resent being told that I said things that I didn't even say. You have done this to me countless times, so it is kinda hard to have any sort of reasoned debate with that sort of attitude. 🙁

A lot of this is just deflection so as not to answer the question at hand, which was about Spike and his dark side as compared to anybody else, not just Angel.

I do however apologise for calling you stupid, that is untrue. Your argument is stupid though.

Anyanka has demon in her, so did Darla, and so do Buffy and Faith. They all have at some point struggled (or continue to struggle) with that innate demon-ness. Of all of them Anyaka struggled the least and Angel struggle the most.
After 'Get It Done' Spike doesn't struggle at all. I have given reasons as to why, because on many key issues Spike's soul and his demon are in sync with one another- how they view themselves and how they view the world- I've also given examples to back up my explanation.

You're reply is to exaggerate one little part of one of my points and to say that that is my entire argument.🙄

 

[bespangeled]

So we're even then, because I deeply resent being told that I said things that I didn't even say. You have done this to me countless times, so it is kinda hard to have any sort of reasoned debate with that sort of attitude. 🙁

A lot of this is just deflection so as not to answer the question at hand, which was about Spike and his dark side as compared to anybody else, not just Angel.

I do however apologise for calling you stupid, that is untrue. Your argument is stupid though.

Anyanka has demon in her, so did Darla, and so do Buffy and Faith. They all have at some point struggled (or continue to struggle) with that innate demon-ness. Of all of them Anyaka struggled the least and Angel struggle the most.
After 'Get It Done' Spike doesn't struggle at all. I have given reasons as to why, because on many key issues Spike's soul and his demon are in sync with one another- how they view themselves and how they view the world- I've also given examples to back up my explanation.

You're reply is to exaggerate one little part of one of my points and to say that that is my entire argument.🙄

Pot meet kettle 😉

 

[gite63]

I have no idea of the where you got the idea that he sees himself as a victim of women.

I have no idea, eihter. Well, actually, I do have one and it starts with H. 🙄

 

[janas]

I have no idea, eihter. Well, actually, I do have one and it starts with H. 🙄

and that was how the discussion ended. But what a surprise.
Although @thetopher has answered that question, you would prefer to ignore, thus invalidating his answer with "but he's a H" then everything he says has no value.

 

[thetopher]

I have no idea, eihter. Well, actually, I do have one and it starts with H.

Nice. 😉

So, even though I've actually given explanations from the show AND the comics you're content to fall back on name calling. And surprise, surpirse the other Spikettes agree with you.

So very, very sad.