Spike and his demon

[VisionBoy]

This word "hater" gets thrown around an awful lot these days. To my way of thinking, a hater just hates; they're not interested in discussion, reasons or debate. Seriously, like his view or not, if thetopher is just a hater, then he works a hell of a lot harder than he needs to.

It's like when you prefer the older episodes of a show because you think the quality dropped later on and you end up being called a "hipster". Doesn't matter how much you explain your view, you're obviously just "one of those".

Makes it crystal clear that further discussion is fairly pointless.

 

[Kana]

I think EVIL UU more or less covered this.

So, finally, here is a question - where the hell is Spike's demon?

Well it's still there. Depending on whether you believe that Spike is a demon with a human soul or you make a dichotomy between his human "anima" and his demon physiology. This supports the idea of dualism that seems to exist in the Buffyverse and better explains the apparent phenomenon of Spike (and Angel's) "continued consciousness".

Where is a bloodlust?

There are a few possible explanations for this.:

1) Spike's strength of will

Perhaps he struggles less than Angel because he simply has more will power.

2) The Chip

As EVIL UU said (I think), Spike has been conditioned not to be tempted to bite humans. On a subconscious level, he associates the kill with pain, so it's easier for him to refrain from biting humans.

3) He's not the protagonist and it wasn't important to the plot at the time.

One of the focus' of Angel's story is his temptation towards human blood. I suppose this makes sense seen as he is the main character in Ats, so they can afford to spend some time focusing on that part of Angel's condition. Also maybe going over that for Spike would simply be a rehash of Angel's story. Although some would argue that Spike having a soul in the first place already crossed that line!!!! Either way, this is more a Watsonian explanation.

Where is desire to kill Slayers like he used to like?

Morals? Many events can make us change our sense of identity. While he may retain certain aspects of his personality, even with a soul, he may not have exactly the same moral perspective he did when he didn't have a soul (which hopefully is the point)

How does he feel about the demon side of him?

Mixed. As people have said, Spike deliberately built a persona for himself and I'm sure he's attached to some of those aspects. The human William was meek and ineffectual and being a vampire gave a sense of being his own person. However, ironically, what motivated him to get a soul was being the sort of person, worthy of Buffy and while Buffy was clearly attracted to soulless Spike (I don't care what any of you Spuffy detractors say), so rejected him, again and again. It was soulless demon sought to be a better individual, so that in itself, at least for Spike was redeeming quality he'd like in himself.

Like, he had some of that when he got a chip but after the soul we got nothing. And just in theory it should be even worse than in Angel's case after removing the chip because Spike's demon was artificially supressed.

We'll, I'd contend actually the opposite might occur.

Why AI team in LA is so calm about Spike? He is like a ticking bomb. They are already experienced some of Angel's demon on themselves so why do they suddenly think that Spike is harmless?

Angel's main "ticking time bomb" is his curse and his ability to make crazy decisions with a soul. Spike, with a soul hadn't demonstrated any of that yet, so there was no reason not to trust him. All they got to know is that he was a vampire with a soul who saved the world. These are arguably the more positive qualities of Angel anyway.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

"hater"

I feel dumb! I have been trying to figure out what H meant and I couldn't deduce it. Dur. Now it makes sense.

 

[VisionBoy]

I feel dumb! I have been trying to figure out what H meant and I couldn't deduce it. Dur. Now it makes sense.

I'll be honest, looking at it last night, I was the same. Only just figured it out looking at the responses now 😛

 

[Silverspike]

Kana, great post. 😀

 

[gite63]

Why AI team in LA is so calm about Spike? He is like a ticking bomb. They are already experienced some of Angel's demon on themselves so why do they suddenly think that Spike is harmless?

Ticking bomb? Why? Soulless Spike was able to do good; after taking part (with Drusilla) in the killing of that couple at the Bronze, he said he was "through playing", when he was after the girl in the alley he had to physique himself to kill her, it was the demon that fought for the soul. So, even if he lost the soul, he wouldn't be evil, he would, at least, fight not to. And certainly, he wouldn't kill Buffy, Dawn or any of the Scoobies. 

Oh, but Angel even with soul is a huge danger, IMO. I wouldn't even allow to approach people to him when he is dark.

He did some questionable things, but I wouldn't consider him a "huge" danger...

 

[thetopher]

after taking part (with Drusilla) in the killing of that couple at the Bronze, he said he was "through playing",

Isn't that when he chained Buffy up and threatened to feed her to Drusilla if she didn't say that she loved him? I think we have different definitions of 'ticking time bomb'.
Buffy came quite close to dying at the hands of Drusilla in that episode, and it would've been Spike's fault.

when he was after the girl in the alley he had to physique himself to kill her,

The chip stopped him from murdering an innocent girl. That episode showed that, for all his talk, Spike hadn't changed that much- he was still evil.

So, even if he lost the soul, he wouldn't be evil

Sure he would, he would just slaughter strangers and leave Buffy and the Scoobies alone. Behaviourollogy shows that Spike, wthout a chip and soul, would revert back to his demon-ness, even if it took a little while.

He did some questionable things, but I wouldn't consider him a "huge" danger...

W&H, some of the most dangerous bad guys in the universe, seem to disagree, since most of their schemes are to get Angel on their side without unleashing Angelus.

Hence resurrecting Darla and then turning her, trying to get Angel to kill his son/sacrifice Linwood, letting him take over the LA office and trying to corrupt him, sending him to hell, etc.

 

[gite63]

Sure he would, he would just slaughter strangers and leave Buffy and the Scoobies alone. Behaviourollogy shows that Spike, wthout a chip and soul, would revert back to his demon-ness, even if it took a little while.

This thread is about Spike's demon. It seems it is difficult to be certain where it is, how Spike controls or is controlled by it etc.

Soulless Spike, IMO, seemed to be "learning" how to be good.

He didn't enjoy much the killing with Dru, then he did that stupid thing with Buffy.

As soon as he thinks he can kill again, he goes to hunt, but has to physique himself to do it; if he had killed the girl, certainly he would be upset afterward - because of Buffy. It was an impulse, like when he was made corporeal again and rushed to have sex with Harmony.

I don't exactly have a reputation for being a thinker; I follow my blood, which does not always rush in the direction of my head.

By the end of the show, he evolved, and wanted to get a soul. Soulless Spike - the demon - wanted the soul.

As EVIL UU said:

I don't know, it's like Spike never truly embraced his demon and kinda worked around it, pursued his own thing since day one if that makes any sense.

After so many years being good, even if he lost his soul, I believe he wouldn't be a killer again, and not (just) because of Buffy.

And canon or no, it already happened and... 

W&H, some of the most dangerous bad guys in the universe, seem to disagree, since most of their schemes are to get Angel on their side without unleashing Angelus.

Hence resurrecting Darla and then turning her, trying to get Angel to kill his son/sacrifice Linwood, letting him take over the LA office and trying to corrupt him, sending him to hell, etc.

And nothing worked... till Whistler, with his stupid plan, made Angel play Twilight and kill hundreds of people to be able to live in a universe with his beloved. 😡

 

[bespangeled]

Isn't that when he chained Buffy up and threatened to feed her to Drusilla if she didn't say that she loved him? I think we have different definitions of 'ticking time bomb'.
Buffy came quite close to dying at the hands of Drusilla in that episode, and it would've been Spike's fault.



The chip stopped him from murdering an innocent girl. That episode showed that, for all his talk, Spike hadn't changed that much- he was still evil.



Sure he would, he would just slaughter strangers and leave Buffy and the Scoobies alone. Behaviourollogy shows that Spike, wthout a chip and soul, would revert back to his demon-ness, even if it took a little while.



W&H, some of the most dangerous bad guys in the universe, seem to disagree, since most of their schemes are to get Angel on their side without unleashing Angelus.

Hence resurrecting Darla and then turning her, trying to get Angel to kill his son/sacrifice Linwood, letting him take over the LA office and trying to corrupt him, sending him to hell, etc.

Just curious - what is Behaviourollogy? How does it show that Spike without a soul and a chip would revert back to being his demon-ness? And how is this different from Angel? Spike fought to get his chip because he knew it was the right thing to do - why would he revert? He's kind of the clockwork vamp - he's been conditioned not to attack people - though soulless Spike did try to kill the girl you mentioned. He wanted the soul in order to get a moral compass so he knew he wouldn't harm Buffy or others. So why would Behaviourollogy show that Spike, wthout a chip and soul, would revert back to his demon-ness, even if it took a little while?

As for the rest, I agree.

 

[thetopher]

And canon or no, it already happened and...

You're talking about the IDW nonsense? That was retconned out of existance/undone in 'Return To Sunnydale', there Spike tells Buffy that if he loses his soul she should kill him- so he's never lost his soul, not even for a little bit.

And nothing worked...

W&H still tried- that means that they wanted him dark because he's considered a large enough threat to warrent those investments/schemes, not Angelus. Angel was just strong enough to hold onto his humanity through very trying times.

The rest...Angel's massive fault is that, because he obsesses with his past evils so much, he occassionally throws up hjis hands and looks for a 'quick fix' to his redemption- suicide by sunrise, going dark and warring with W&H, and Twilight- Whistler, the guy he trusted through all those years, gave him an 'out'. Guy's an idiot.

Just curious - what is Behaviourollogy? How does it show that Spike without a soul and a chip would revert back to being his demon-ness? And how is this different from Angel?

Part of behaviourology is negative reenforcement- do this and get an electric shock/vomit inducing chemical/pain as punishment. (the opposite is positive reenforcement- Pavlov's dog, etc)
This basically what Spike's chip is- something deep in his cerebral cortex there to 'fix/contrl' his abberant behaviour with pain.

Ultimately behaviourology doesn't work (and was proven not to work and is therefore mostly dismissed nowadays) for two reasons; firstly when the negative stimulus is removed then the patient always eventualy reverts back to their abberant psychosis- whether that is a phobia, a compulsion or whatever. This is what would happen to Spike without a chip (the soul is of course a completely different thing), it might takes months but Spike would go back to kiling, he (the demon) would remember how much he enjoyed it.

The second reason is that the negative stimulus just creates a second set of aberrant behaviour to replace the first, a new disorder, usually just as strong as the first.
For example a peadophile would be cured of his desires but go on to exibit a violent hatred/crippling fear of children because of the pain the treatment had caused/contines to cause.

Spike fought to get his chip because he knew it was the right thing to do - why would he revert? He's kind of the clockwork vamp - he's been conditioned not to attack people - though soulless Spike did try to kill the girl you mentioned.

I presume you mean soul? Spike fought for his soul but he had the chip forced on him. Like I said, if Spike had had the chip removed at the end of S6 instead of getting a soul (and YES Spike did go on a quest to find a soul, I'm not one of those people) then he would've, eventually, gone back to how he was.

....Unless, you could argue that the chip was a success and that one set of behaviour (killing, murdering, violence) was replaced with another- mania, which would explain why Spike fell in love with Buffy in the first place. He mind snapped because the chip was preventing his demon from acting out, so a new disorder was formed.

I'll have to think on that because I'm not sure if the theory works or not- it would explain some things though.
If that was the case then Spike would remain the way he was if he was unchipped but was without a soul- he would still love Buffy and help her the same as before.

 

[bespangeled]

Part of behaviourology is negative reenforcement- do this and get an electric shock/vomit inducing chemical/pain as punishment. (the opposite is positive reenforcement- Pavlov's dog, etc)
This basically what Spike's chip is- something deep in his cerebral cortex there to 'fix/contrl' his abberant behaviour with pain.

Ultimately behaviourology doesn't work (and was proven not to work and is therefore mostly dismissed nowadays) for two reasons; firstly when the negative stimulus is removed then the patient always eventualy reverts back to their abberant psychosis- whether that is a phobia, a compulsion or whatever. This is what would happen to Spike without a chip (the soul is of course a completely different thing), it might takes months but Spike would go back to kiling, he (the demon) would remember how much he enjoyed it.

The second reason is that the negative stimulus just creates a second set of aberrant behaviour to replace the first, a new disorder, usually just as strong as the first.
For example a peadophile would be cured of his desires but go on to exibit a violent hatred/crippling fear of children because of the pain the treatment had caused/contines to cause.

You're talking about Skinner? Yeah, behaiorology doesn't work on animals but there are differences between humans and animals. Behaviorism denies that there is free will. I believe in free will. I am more that stimuli and reaction. People's so called mental processes such as thinking, remembering, etc., would not qualify as observed behavior. Such activities as solving a logical problem i.e. following premisses to their logical conclusion would not qualify as behavior caused by a stimulus in the environment. Also, people have and create internal stimuli which may or may not result in some observable behavior and may or may not lead to other mental activity without observable behavior. Hence, people bring more to the equation - they can choose.

There is no need to rely on behaviorism past season 4 - Spike has free will, and he is capable of independent thought. In essence he has moved beyond conditioning to choice. Since people have independent thought and free will they can chose their actions. That's why Spike changed in those three seasons before the chip was removed. Yes, he tried to fight it, and sneak around it but ultimately Spike began new behaviors, found they pleased Buffy, and kept trying to please Buffy. He had a goal.

I presume you mean soul? Spike fought for his soul but he had the chip forced on him. Like I said, if Spike had had the chip removed at the end of S6 instead of getting a soul (and YES Spike did go on a quest to find a soul, I'm not one of those people) then he would've, eventually, gone back to how he was.

....Unless, you could argue that the chip was a success and that one set of behaviour (killing, murdering, violence) was replaced with another- mania, which would explain why Spike fell in love with Buffy in the first place. He mind snapped because the chip was preventing his demon from acting out, so a new disorder was formed.

I'll have to think on that because I'm not sure if the theory works or not- it would explain some things though.
If that was the case then Spike would remain the way he was if he was unchipped but was without a soul- he would still love Buffy and help her the same as before.

Yeah, that's really what I am arguing. Spike changed his behaviors enough, due to aversive conditioning, and began to try for a positive reinforcement - Buffy. He decided the day Dru came back and let him know he could leave with her and she could hunt for both of them. I would say that's probably where it changed - he realized he didn't have to worry about the negative - he could feed on humans without pain - and he tried to get the positive. Yes, it was a freaky, stupid, dangerous, misogynistic, and thoroughly reprehensible attempt - and so dumb. Angel killed his sire - Buffy loved him. If I kill my sire, Buffy will love me. I can't imagine a bigger ash-ole way to do pledge love. But his priorities changed.

 

[Firstina]

As EVIL UU said (I think), Spike has been conditioned not to be tempted to bite humans. On a subconscious level, he associates the kill with pain, so it's easier for him to refrain from biting humans.

He was forced not to hurt people not explicitly bite them. So there is no clear connection between feeding and pain. If it would be so, he wouldn't be able to hurt demons too because of the new reflex. Anyway, I would agree on this if writers didn't allow him to hurt demons and then Buffy for no reason. But because of this two factors - that he managed to hurt exactly the amount of creatures the chip allowed him to hurt with no pain - I can't see why it will affect in positive way his behavior after gaining the soul.

We'll, I'd contend actually the opposite might occur.

Why? The desire for blood and killings wouldn't less because of the chip. It just adds a frustration and inability to satisfy your desires. And it may sound hilarious but it reminds me a little bit of Bangel in 3 season and afterwards. They can pretend that they don't want each other, even control their desires - but the moment they had a chance in IWRY they are all consumed by passion even if they tried to be mature and rational about it.😛

Angel's main "ticking time bomb" is his curse and his ability to make crazy decisions with a soul. Spike, with a soul hadn't demonstrated any of that yet, so there was no reason not to trust him. All they got to know is that he was a vampire with a soul who saved the world. These are arguably the more positive qualities of Angel anyway.

Curse and his reckless decisions are just a part of a cocktail. We've seen at least once a season AI team acting with the precaution not because of the Angel-the man but Angel-the vampire and not even specificly because of the curse thing - after the deal with Shroud of Ramon they are afraid they awakened his bloodlust, with Connor's blood he starts acting crazy - and this is nothing to do with the additional fear of Angelus, it's all about the nature of a vampire. And Angel is still one.

Ticking bomb? Why? Soulless Spike was able to do good; after taking part (with Drusilla) in the killing of that couple at the Bronze, he said he was "through playing", when he was after the girl in the alley he had to physique himself to kill her, it was the demon that fought for the soul. So, even if he lost the soul, he wouldn't be evil, he would, at least, fight not to. And certainly, he wouldn't kill Buffy, Dawn or any of the Scoobies.

"Hello? Vampire!" I am not very eager to bring Angel on this but I literally have no choice.😉 On every step of building every type of his relationship Angel gives this warning to everybody - I can walk like a man but I am not one. After Bangel's first kiss - he admits he wanted to kill her with the same desire ti kiss her; and even if he didn't bite Joyce he still wanted to. He also refers to it in a very melodramatic line with something like "when I'll kiss you won't wake up like in a fairytale." After Somnambulist he admits he enjoyed the dreams. And also during this episode AI team acts the way they should do - because their boss, Angel not Angelus - is a freaking vampire.

He did some questionable things, but I wouldn't consider him a "huge" danger...

He wents dark once a season not to mention the whole Angelus possibility. And they don't even have a strong enough fighter just in case - because otherwise they wouldn't need Faith to capture Angelus in season 4.

 

[thetopher]

You're talking about Skinner? Yeah, behaiorology doesn't work on animals but there are differences between humans and animals. Behaviorism denies that there is free will. I believe in free will.

Skinner was the father of behaviourology in a sense but there are other students of it, (even if they didn't call it by that name) and there are examples where it had in the past been used on humans (we're talking early twentieth century here).

And I think you mean that behaviourology does work on animals because animals work mostly on instinct. Animals are far more easily conditioned than humans through negative/positive stumulii.
People, even people with already damaged thought processes (that the science is trying to 'correct') are much harder to mold in that way.

Example: a pigeon lands in a park and the scientist/psychologist scares it away. That pigeon, frightened, will be slow to return to that place it associates with a near-miss but it wil land there again eventually. If the second time it lands it is scared again, it won't ever return to that place because it will always associate it with being frightened.

I believe in free will. I am more that stimuli and reaction.

I agree, which is why behaviourology doesn't really work. Spike, without the chip, would revert to his 'normal' behavioural patterns eventually. You can't tame him that way. The only way Spike can change permenantly, is with a soul.

There is no need to rely on behaviorism past season 4 - Spike has free will, and he is capable of independent thought.

Well, yes and no. Spike still does some morally questionable/evil things in S5 and 6, but he is trying/struggling to find his way. But he is still willing and wanting to kill when he think his chip isn't working. On the other hand he ends up being able to hurt Buffy and yet doesn't attempt to kill her.
He has free will which means he can adapt to circumstance. So I don't equate a vampire with an animal in that sense because of their higher intelligence/ability to reason.

 

[Firstina]

Spike fans, please, don't be infuriated by this thread.
I am actually accusing Spike of being a saint, so why complain?😉

 

[gite63]

After Bangel's first kiss - he admits he wanted to kill her with the same desire ti kiss her; and even if he didn't bite Joyce he still wanted to.

And Spike didn't had those desires, at all... so, where was the bloodlust? One thing is him to not be able to bite because of the chip, other is him not to crave human blood, or bite people. Why didn't Spike want to bite Buffy when they were having sex? He - the demon - didn't have to fight the bloodlust, not once.

 

[Firstina]

Don't get your point. You've just simply stated the question of the thread once again.

 

[gite63]

Don't get your point. You've just simply stated the question of the thread once again.

The question is "where is the manifestation of a demon part in Spike after he got his soul back." Where the hell was it before he got his soul? Never did he want to bite Buffy, but he could have had the desire to bite her.

 

[thetopher]

Where the hell was it before he got his soul?

Where do I begin:

'Crush'
'Smashed'
'Wrecked'
'Dead Things'
'As You Were'
'Seeing Red'

I see Spike's demon all over his relationship with Buffy in s6, otherwise where did those terrible urges come from?

Before the chip stopped working with Spike he hadn't been able to bite Buffy (or anybody) for 2 years- since The Initiative', so he had been conditioned NOT to bite, nor do I believe by that point did he want to bite Buffy.
I've heard speculation (and see the point) that if they hadn't broken up Spike may have tried to turn Buffy at some point down the line. He was always trying to draw her into his darkness by saying that they were the same, and that would've been the next step.

 

[gite63]

I see Spike's demon all over his relationship with Buffy in s6, otherwise where did those terrible urges come from?

Yeah, but the primordial urge - to bite people - wasn't there when he was able to bite Buffy. I'm not talking about choices, or mistakes, or doing stupid things to accomplish something, I'm talking about the urge. 

I've heard speculation (and see the point) that if they hadn't broken up Spike may have tried to turn Buffy at some point down the line.

Well, many people back them did want Spike evil, hence the speculation. I don't remember any of the writers saying that, and on the show, this was one thing that was never even hinted.

And Spike would never turn Buffy, because of what happened with his mother.

 

[Firstina]

The question is "where is the manifestation of a demon part in Spike after he got his soul back." Where the hell was it before he got his soul? Never did he want to bite Buffy, but he could have had the desire to bite her.

Ok, got it know. Spike is just failing at being a decent demon on every step.😉