Spike and his demon

[gite63]

He was always trying to draw her into his darkness by saying that they were the same, and that would've been the next step.

People always say that, but Buffy didn't want to bring him to the light, either.

I mean, before Buffy came back from the grave, Spike was always at her house taking care of Dawn, "in the light."

After the kisses, he wants to talk about it - a man wanting to talk about the relationship! Then, they have sex and she forbids him to tell anyone (OK, very understandable). He goes to her house, and wants to talk again. After some time, he wants her to tell her friends about them being together - he wants to be with her "in the light", but she pushes him on the opposite direction.

Well, he is no saint, so if he can't go to the light, and he wants to be with Buffy... 

Spike is just failing at being a decent demon on every step.😉

Maybe it was that ponce William who spoiled things for the demon...

 

[Silverspike]

Ok, got it know. Spike is just failing at being a decent demon on every step.😉

Well he must have done something 'right' at some point to be called a "Legendary dark warrior" by the Demon in the cave in season 6.

 

[thetopher]

Yeah, but the primordial urge - to bite people - wasn't there when he was able to bite Buffy.

I still think, from what we've seen in 'Smashed', that Spike would've bitten anybody but Buffy (or perhaps Dawn) if the chip had stopped working entirely. His love of Buffy curbed his desire to bite her, but maybe not forever.

And Spike would never turn Buffy, because of what happened with his mother.

But those revelations about what happened with his mother only came to light after he got his soul back. Then Spike fully understood that it was the demon lashing out at him and not his mother. Before that? No, Spike didn't have that capacity to realise, he didn't really understand the difference between demon and soul, therefore its entirely reasonable that he would turn Buffy. Unless you're implying that he never turned anybody when he was a vampire, which seems unlikely.

People always say that, but Buffy didn't want to bring him to the light, either.

Spike came to her Birthday party and she let him stay. If Spike had been willing and able to hang around her friends and be with her 'in the light', why wouldn't she have wanted that?

This, from 'Older And Far Away':
BUFFY: Hey! Passive Aggressive Guy! Seriously, wanna take it down a notch or two out there?
SPIKE: What, poor, dainty Richard can't take a joke?
BUFFY: We do not joke about eating people in this house!

BUFFY: I should have thrown you out the second you got here. I was insane to think you could ever just hang out with my friends.

Buffy tried to tolerate him with her friends but it didn't work. Spike wasn't the 'hangiing around the house' type.

And look at the comics now, Spike is one of the gang and Buffy is cool with that. But before that he wasn't able to just hang around with them- he's still pretty unpleasent.

I mean, before Buffy came back from the grave, Spike was always at her house taking care of Dawn, "in the light."

And after Buffy came back he hardly ever interacted with Dawn or the Scoobies again- he stopped caring about Dawn and went back to lurking about- 'Flooded', 'All The Way' etc.
Spike wasn't interested in spending time with Buffy's friends, he was simply interested in isolating Buffy from her friends and persuading her that they were the same- 'Life Serila', 'Smashed', 'Dead Things'.
Spike didn't want to be 'in the light' just like Buffy didn't want to be 'in the dark'.

Basically I don't think Spike was a nice guy at all before he got his soul. He was a nice demon, and that's an entirely different thing- because, well, he's still a demon.

 

[gite63]

This, from 'Older And Far Away':
BUFFY: Hey! Passive Aggressive Guy! Seriously, wanna take it down a notch or two out there?
SPIKE: What, poor, dainty Richard can't take a joke?
BUFFY: We do not joke about eating people in this house!

BUFFY: I should have thrown you out the second you got here. I was insane to think you could ever just hang out with my friends.

What, poor BtVS fans can't take a joke? 😉

Spike was jealous, so he made a joke. God forbid to attend a party with politically correct people.

Spike went to the party because Willow mentioned it to him. And he brought a friend! And beer! And Tara was so nice to him... she was OK with Buffy being with Spike.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

What, poor BtVS fans can't take a joke? 😉
Spike was jealous, so he made a joke.

I know right! Buffy was so dour that she couldnt take the joke. I mean, the former big bad talking about eating her potential love interest is funny. The fact he would do it in front of Dawn and everyone else is even funnier.

 

[thetopher]

Spike was jealous, so he made a joke. God forbid to attend a party with politically correct people.

I think the point is that Buffy didn't think it was funny and so told him to leave the party. Intergration fail. 😉

Spike went to the party because Willow mentioned it to him. And he brought a friend! And beer! And Tara was so nice to him... she was OK with Buffy being with Spike.

Not at all, Tara was basically there to keep Spike in line, that's why Buffy invited her in the first place.
Tara wasn't judgmental to Buffy but she did see that the relationship was causing Buffy pain, so she took steps to get Spike to back off. She makes fun of him.

(After Spike tries to get Buffy to' blow out his candle' as a 'birthday present' to her 🙄 and Tara finds them)

SPIKE (cont'd): I, uh, had a muscle cramp. Buffy was... helping.
TARA: Muscle cramp. In your pants.
SPIKE: What. It's a thing.
TARA: Right.

Later on:

TARA: How's that cramp, Spike? Still bothering you?
SPIKE: What? Oh. Yeah...
TARA: (smiles) Maybe you should put some ice on it.

Message from Tara to Spike- back the hell off, it's Buffy's birthday party. 🙂

I do agree that it was nice that he brought beer and Clem (although the latter wasn't the smartest move- bringing a demon to a party with normal people) but he probably did that so he wouldn't be thrown out as soon as he came.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

The more I think about it the more I think you may be onto something. Buffy never really got Spike's humor. When he had her chained up to a wall threatening to let Dru eat it, it was just a big joke- meant as a laugh. It makes much more sense now.

 

[gite63]

I know right! Buffy was so dour that she couldnt take the joke.

Yes, exactly. 

her potential love interest

Potential? 🙄 Spike was being jealous for nothing... that guy was no Robin Wood! 

The fact he would do it in front of Dawn and everyone else is even funnier.

And it seemed to me anybody took notice... 

Not at all, Tara was basically there to keep Spike in line, that's why Buffy invited her in the first place.

Tara was basically there to keep Spike in line??? That's why Buffy invited her in the first place? 😵

Poor Tara! And poor Buffy that needed someone to protect her from her Big Bad Lover! 

She makes fun of him.

Yes, she does, and it is adorable, funny and nice. I would do the same thing if I caught them red handed! 

The more I think about it the more I think you may be onto something. Buffy never really got Spike's humor. When he had her chained up to a wall threatening to let Dru eat it, it was just a big joke- meant as a laugh. It makes much more sense now.

No, it wasn't. I think you don't get jokes. I believe you are one of those people that think Spike was being deadly serious when he suggested to Buffy he "could kill Faith and make it look like a painful accident"...

 

[GoSpuffy]

I have always felt that the difference lies in the person who is taken over by the demon. The demon in Angel and Spike is the same but the people they were before the bite was quite different. Angel was a womanizer and n're do well. Spike was a nerdy gentleman. Angel was raised by a domineering father. Spike by a loving genteel women with poor health. Angel went into the alley hoping to score with darla. Spike was pursued by dru and talked into joining the family.

I think the demon changed them both equally and so did the soul. Yes Spike seemed to recover from his soul quicker but why wouldn't he? He had a supportive network of friends, a woman to impress, 2 years of detox from human blood, and rather than being cursed with a soul he didn't want he and his demon went through the trials together to win the soul. His fighting strength came from the demon so it must have been partially on board with William's decision to win the soul as it helped him through the trials.

I love both characters and the way they were written. They had to have different stories or the show would have been boring. Most importantly: they had very different coloring and one was Irish and one was English. That makes all the difference in the world.

 

[bespangeled]

I think the demon changed then both equally and so did the soul. Yes Spike seemed to recover from his soul quicker by wouldn't he? He had a supportive network of friends, a woman to impress, 2 years of detox from human blood, and rather than being cursed with a soul he didn't want he and his demon went through the trials together to win the soul. His fighting strength came from the demon so it must have been partially on board with William's decision to win the soul as it helped him through the trials.

The demon decided to get the soul - William completely came on board with the soul. So the demon wanted William back, though probably not for long.

He also had Angel. First, there is no way in hell Spike would have even conceived of getting a soul without Angel having one. And if you ignore the verbiage and watch Spike, he really is following in Angel's foostteps. Slept with the same women, went to the same places - offered to kill Dru to make Buffy love him because Angel killed Darla and Buffy loved him. He got dragged to the good side of the equation, but he made the final jump and chose to get a soul. He had the crazies, and complained that Angel never warned him - he had a role model as much as all the other things. As much as Spike hates it, he can't get away from orbiting Angel. He's his own man - but he gets caught up in orbit.

I love both characters and the way they were written. They had to have different stories or the show would have been boring. Most importantly: they had very different coloring and one was Irish and one was English. That makes all the difference in the world.

😀

 

[GoSpuffy]

Inte

The demon decided to get the soul - William completely came on board with the soul. So the demon wanted William back, though probably not for long.

He also had Angel. First, there is no way in hell Spike would have even conceived of getting a soul without Angel having one. And if you ignore the verbiage and watch Spike, he really is following in Angel's foostteps. Slept with the same women, went to the same places - offered to kill Dru to make Buffy love him because Angel killed Darla and Buffy loved him. He got dragged to the good side of the equation, but he made the final jump and chose to get a soul. He had the crazies, and complained that Angel never warned him - he had a role model as much as all the other things. As much as Spike hates it, he can't get away from orbiting Angel. He's his own man - but he gets caught up in orbit.



😀

interesting. I don't dispute what you are saying in essence but I'm Not sure we ever told categorically that demon wanted the soul. I think they had to be in collaboration. After the A/R William said "what did I do" and the demon said "why didn't I do it?" Together they needed to move to a better way of getting what they wanted out of life (or unlife)e. Yes, in my list of things that made it easier for spike I should have also sited Angels example. Not that spike was copying Angel but you know he was thinking if captain forehead can do it so can I.

 

[bespangeled]

Inte

interesting. I don't dispute what you are saying in essence but I'm Not sure we ever told categorically that demon wanted the soul. I think they had to be in collaboration. After the A/R William said "what did I do" and the demon said "why didn't I do it?" Together they needed to move to a better way of getting what they wanted out of life (or unlife)e. Yes, in my list of things that made it easier for spike I should have also sited Angels example. Not that spike was copying Angel but you know he was thinking if captain forehead can do it so can I.

That leads to the question of what is the demon and what is the soul.

I would say that there were definitely remnants of William that came to the surface as his bloodlust was throttled and his ability to hurt humans was quelled. Being with humans as something more that happy meals, and learning to love some humans was another slice of William. He gave to Buffy exactly what she needed in season 6 - he gave her the fire back. He let her explore her own darkness with him as the willing vehicle - and he was injured in the process. One thing alone he promised both Buffy and himself - he did not hurt Buffy. Then he did.

Whatever was in him at that time was cohesive and it was mainly demon. His demon had to change in order to survive. But until he had his soul back he didn't have William back. If both of them were standing in the crypt arguing then why bother with the soul? Yes, he had no idea what he was getting into - and yes he knew he could prove to the ponce that he was better - but getting the soul was getting William back. In essence it was the demon, with echoes of William, the Victorian romantic and love's bitch - who asked for his soul back. That was William in the basement - crazed from the integration, and from the First. Demon and soul - he was in pain.

Maybe it's because I am a Spangel fan - but to me the B-verse we see is 8 years out of 120+. Angel knows Spike's buttons because he installed them - Spike knows Angel's moves because he resisted being controlled. But the very fact that Spike was with Dru kept him with the fanged four - just look at Spike with Angel when he bring Dru her sire to play with. He cares what Angel thinks enough to almost put Dru's cure in danger. This degree of passion is the exact opposite of the apathy Spike projects when he doesn't care - like when he toasted the annoying one. I'm not saying he chose to follow Angel - he didn't for the most part. He just chose to resist Angel, and that meant they were still tied together.

 

[GoSpuffy]

That leads to the question of what is the demon and what is the soul.

I would say that there were definitely remnants of William that came to the surface as his bloodlust was throttled and his ability to hurt humans was quelled. Being with humans as something more that happy meals, and learning to love some humans was another slice of William. He gave to Buffy exactly what she needed in season 6 - he gave her the fire back. He let her explore her own darkness with him as the willing vehicle - and he was injured in the process. One thing alone he promised both Buffy and himself - he did not hurt Buffy. Then he did.

Whatever was in him at that time was cohesive and it was mainly demon. His demon had to change in order to survive. But until he had his soul back he didn't have William back. If both of them were standing in the crypt arguing then why bother with the soul? Yes, he had no idea what he was getting into - and yes he knew he could prove to the ponce that he was better - but getting the soul was getting William back. In essence it was the demon, with echoes of William, the Victorian romantic and love's bitch - who asked for his soul back. That was William in the basement - crazed from the integration, and from the First. Demon and soul - he was in pain.

Maybe it's because I am a Spangel fan - but to me the B-verse we see is 8 years out of 120+. Angel knows Spike's buttons because he installed them - Spike knows Angel's moves because he resisted being controlled. But the very fact that Spike was with Dru kept him with the fanged four - just look at Spike with Angel when he bring Dru her sire to play with. He cares what Angel thinks enough to almost put Dru's cure in danger. This degree of passion is the exact opposite of the apathy Spike projects when he doesn't care - like when he toasted the annoying one. I'm not saying he chose to follow Angel - he didn't for the most part. He just chose to resist Angel, and that meant they were still tied together.

Spike is such a complex character. I think I sometimes make the mistake of crediting him with a soul before season 7 just because of how much of humanity remained. You are correct, he didn't have a soul, it was the demon that made the decison to get it. Somehow this makes me love Spike even more, and I didn't think that was possible. 🙂