Spike and his redemption arc

[Silverspike]

And though this is getting to the point of defending Spike, which I refuse to do anymore

Go on, I'll bite, why don't you directly defend him anymore? 🙂

 

[Xin Rong]

There may not be any comparison between Angel after 100 years of living with a soul and Spike having done the same thing for only a few months at best for you, but apparently there was for Buffy, and I do agree that trusting him that soon was a risk, but either Buffy didn't see that difference, or believed that she would be able to handle whatever happened. I don't necessarily agree, I'm only pointing out what she probably thought, if she even thought about it at all.

After Buffy found out that Spike was killing again, she chained him in the basement, which is where he was when the Bringers took him. Afterward, Spike chained himself up down there unless Buffy was with him.

And though this is getting to the point of defending Spike, which I refuse to do anymore, I will point out that Spike was able to resist the Fiest Evil's directions once he knew that something was trying to control him. Prior to that, he had no memory of anything that he did when the trigger was activated, or that anyhing like the trigger even existed.

When the first tried to control Angel, how many people did he kill?

 

[Kana]

When the first tried to control Angel, how many people did he kill?

It's not a fair comparison. The FE attempted to tempt and corrupt Angel, but they never brainwashed him like they did with Spike. They took away his agency in a way they never did with Angel. If Angel had attempted to kill Buffy, he would have done so by choice and that was something they took away from Spike.

 

[Xin Rong]

It's not a fair comparison. The FE attempted to tempt and corrupt Angel, but they never brainwashed him like they did with Spike. They took away his agency in a way they never did with Angel. If Angel had attempted to kill Buffy, he would have done so by choice and that was something they took away from Spike.

My point is that with Angel (with a soul) the first had to manipulate, whereas with Spike there was a trigger inside him, Spike (with a soul) was easier to manipulate, the first did not put it there, it was already there

 

[Black Eye Guy]

It's not a fair comparison. The FE attempted to tempt and corrupt Angel, but they never brainwashed him like they did with Spike. They took away his agency in a way they never did with Angel. If Angel had attempted to kill Buffy, he would have done so by choice and that was something they took away from Spike.

But other people in this thread have suggested Spike was strong enough to repel the Firsts control to not kill Buffy (which I think is bull).
So if Spike could repel the control, he wasn't arsed to repel TF when he was getting to eat other humans.

It's just more double standard logic that only seems to ever apply to Spike.

 

[Kana]

My point is that with Angel (with a soul) the first had to manipulate, whereas with Spike there was a trigger inside him, Spike (with a soul) was easier to manipulate, the first did not put it there, it was already there

That's too much speculation for my liking. This suggests that Angel couldn't be brainwashed, but we don't know if the FE simply didn't get around to trying that. The point is, we cannot objectively judge, because we don't have enough information. The proof of the pudding would be if they attempted to create a 'Sleeper Agent' in Angel but failed to do so. For all we know, they didn't think of it at the time.

But other people in this thread have suggested Spike was strong enough to repel the Firsts control to not kill Buffy (which I think is bull).
So if Spike could repel the control, he wasn't arsed to repel TF when he was getting to eat other humans.

Nah, Spike was able to uncover the trigger due to the Prokaryote stone and him facing the memories that were affecting him subconsciously.

While he was under the trigger's influence, no repelling was going on.

 

[Robb Stark]

It's not a fair comparison. The FE attempted to tempt and corrupt Angel, but they never brainwashed him like they did with Spike. They took away his agency in a way they never did with Angel. If Angel had attempted to kill Buffy, he would have done so by choice and that was something they took away from Spike.

I don't know. The First was a constant, never-ceasing presence around Angel in S3 and instead of harming Buffy or anyone else, he would have rather killed himself. That's pretty admirable. We see other characters where that certainly is not the case.

 

[Kana]

I don't know. The First was a constant, never-ceasing presence around Angel in S3 and instead of harming Buffy or anyone else, he would have rather killed himself. That's pretty admirable. We see other characters where that certainly is not the case.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticizing Angel here, I'm just saying that if he to killed Buffy (or anyone else) for that matter it would be his choice.

I think his decision was admirable that he'd rather die than hurt anyone but it also shows at that point how little he thinks of himself. I actually really connect with Angel in that scene and it show his human vulnerability.

I do think it's admirable that he doesn't want to become a killer again, but he's also kind of giving up by not fighting for his redemption. As Buffy said, the harder option is to keep fighting and this is the important message he passes on the Faith in Orpheus.

I actually like that Angel is constant work in progress, that we see him struggle and fall down and get back up again. Some fans always concentrate on his failures and use them as ammunition when denigrating his character, but I love it when he makes mistakes, because it demonstrates how difficult it is to be a champion and makes his victories, however small, all the sweeter.

Whilst I spent some time defending Spike (I believe in balance and fairness after all) I connect more with Angel as a person. One of the things that irritated me as a fan is that people focused more on Spike getting a soul rather than what both vampires were doing with it.

Anyway, due to opaque nature of the soul, Faith's redemption story is the one that personally makes the most sense to me.