Spike & Angel: Soul vs Chip; Evil vs Humanity vs Willpower

[Airam]

On a different thread someone was making a point about how different Angel's soul is to Spike's chip. sk8rj04 said this:

Actually, a soul is completely different than the chip. A soul is the essence of humanity. It's what keeps Angel from being the soulless creature he is supposed to be. But the chip is just the equivalent of Spike being neutered...all the dog, but without the bite.

Buffy has every right to treat spike like he's a soulless creature. Because he is.

And it just really got me thinking about this double standard that seems to exist between Spike and Angel eventhough IMO, the two of them couldn't be any less alike. The argument has always been that Angel's soul gives him instant validation, vindication from all of his previous wrong doings. Like an instant clean slate.... "he wasn't responsible for any of the stuff he did while he was Angelus, he didn't have a soul." What I never quite understood is why that same type of validation didn't work in reverse in Spike's case... I mean before ever getting his soul Spike did ALOT of good, and yeah he also did alot evil but thats to be expected under the no soul=pure evil theory that Angelus falls into. So IMO all the out of the box non-evil helping things that Spike did despite his evil nature without a soul should in some way count towards validating him, no?

I went on a little rant on the other thread before deciding this needed a discussion all its own so I'll include here what I said there as well:

Okay the point is exactly that. The SOUL is what keeps Angel from being the creature he's "supposed to be." We've all seen what happens to him when he loses it, death, mayhem, the whole enchilada. Angel, without the soul, would NEVER be able to keep his demon at bay. Spike has shown that he can do just that. It's like he has some kind of super-vampire willpower. Sure the chip started him on the path and without it he never would have been anything but EVIL S2 Spike. The ONLY power the chip had over him was preventing him from PERSONALLY inflicting physical harm on human beings. That's IT, that is ALL the chip did. He did not have to change his personality, or his hatred for the Slayer. He very easily could have just hired someone to take the Slayer out for him just like he did with the Order of Taraka. Instead of doing any of that he began on a gradual path towards, granted in his own trademark snarky and sexy Spike way, changing his ways....

So I mean kinda what I'm trying to get at here is that yeah it IS true that the chip ONLY served to neuter Spike and it changed NOTHING about his nature. He managed to that all on his own. He was the one that, whether it was a conscious descision or not, made it into a stepping stone towards good. Its kind of like to him the chip served as a clutch, an excuse to hide behind "oh I'm neutered, I have no choice but to help," when really thats what he wanted to do. Spike has always been this anomaly of a vampire, almost like he somehow managed to retain a little bit of his humanity all along. I think I've even heard Joss or Marti discuss this before. So if this is true why is such a large portion of the audience so quick to persecute him while just giving Angel the "oh you were Angelus so that awful thing you did doesn't count" free pass? If the same ideology were used for Spike then starting season 7 everyone could have just gotten past everything that he'd done previously and quickly accepted him because he now had a soul. But that isn't as easy to do with Spike because he doesn't fit into the mold as easily as Angel/Angelus does. Like I said he'd been on this graudual path of change and redemption since way before he ever got his soul. All along he had managed to do something Angel never was able to do, control his demon. He lost that battle with the demon briefly with the almost "rape" and he hated himself for it so he went and got the soul because eventhough he was trying to do it on his own, he wanted to ensure that a slip like that, giving the demon the upper hand, could never happen again. In a way its like he wanted garaunteed containment like Angel had.

But I mean the differences between the two of them are just so vast. For one thing their adjustment to getting the soul. Spike gets such a bad wrap, from Angel in particular, for not being as tortured by the soul as he was. Spike didn't allow the soul to make him suffer enough bla, bla, bla. It looked to me like he suffered plenty in that basement, but again I think it came down to control and willpower. Spike did the "Oh I'm a tortured soul" bit for a few months and then he snapped himself out of it because he realized there were more important things going on and he was needed. Not to mention Spike's shift from non-soul having to soul-having wasn't as severe as Angel who had been murdering an entire village one second and slapped with a soul the next. Angel got his soul and for years and years tried to deny it tried to shun it and continue with the killing, he was desperate to have Darla still accept him. It was only after Darla shunned HIM that he began the tortured soul routine and didn't even begin to think about the good of the world and redemption until a pretty little slayer was placed on his lap. Initially Buffy was his motivation to get out of the funk and start helping, NOT the good of mankind.... and yet hmmm, whats another fault people find in Spike? That he only did good to get into Buffy's good graces, hmmm, interesting....

I could go on about this and fly off on tangents forever but this initial post is way long enough already (thanks for reading it) and my thoughts are flying wild right now. I really would like to know what all of your thoughts are on this Spike/Angel double standard... maybe hearing your thoughts will help me focus mine a little.

 

[Airam]

hmmm, nothing yet huh 🙁 I really thought you guys would be more into discussing this, I mean come on, whats more fun than comparing and contrasting Angel and Spike? 😛

 

[Blondie Bear]

I think you hit every point I could have made. I do believe that Spike somehow retained some semblance of humanity. Some of the vampires seem to do that--I could even argue for Harmony retaining some humanity. I think he ran around doing mean evil things because it was fun and he was expected to, but when he was forced to stop, it wasn't as much of a loss as it would have been for another vampire--for example, one of the ones that can't shift out of vamp-face. I think he was a strong enough person to retain some free will even without a soul.

 

[MSchett]

But with the chip Spike didnt do the good for the sake of good he did it to impress Buffy...Also the only reason he got his soul was so that Buffy would allow herself to be with him which he wanted so dearly.

Angelus on the otherhand also is much more powerful then Spike's inner demon, Angelus loved to toy and torture his victims and killed only for that, Spike did it just for the rush/feeling of power/fitting in with the other Fanged Four. Proof of Angelus' pure evil over Spikes is when they call the Judge he says he could kill both Spike and Dru because they reek of humanity while when Angelus comes he cant kill him

 

[DarkAvenger]

Well i finally had the courage to read your post (lol 😛).. so, here's what i think:

Angel isnt able to do good without a soul: we saw what happened in btvs and then in ats: he turned into a murderer. Spike, he was able to do good and help people when he didnt have a soul. I'm sure if they did a spell to spike lose his soul he wouldnt turn into a mass murderer like angel, he would be like s06 spike.

Spike wasnt "bad" in season 06, and of course they (xander, giles....) thought he was just fighting evil to impress buffy. That is true and i cant blame them for thinking that, i mean, he didnt have a soul so in their prespective he was still a monster. But what i dont understand is why do they keep being so bad to him in season 7? They didnt do that to Angel. When angel lost his soul, he murdered a lot of people, even Miss Calendar!! and when he comes back from that hell dimension, after a while, everyone acts like he's only Angel, the "old" angel, and he had nothing to do with what angelus did! So why do they keep treating spike like he's still the "souless spike"? Shouldnt they think "whatever spike did in the past, it wasnt him"? that's exactly what they did to angel.

And another thing: i dont really remember the episode but angel said something like this: "I didnt ask for this; i didnt ask for this soul" - what he said is true! Angel did nothing to get his soul back. it was a curse! But spike wanted to get his soul back. that's the thing! ( and i really dont think that matters what were his reasons to do that) .So why do they act like angel is so good and "season 7 spike" is still a mosnter? they both have souls, they both try to do what's right, but spike wanted that, angel didnt. i just dont get it... why is angel better than spike? (for them: xander, giles, ...)

 

[sk]

Don't forget that soul-having Spike in season 7 had that trigger.
He killed quite a lot of people in season 7 even with the soul. Which made him harder to trust.
Giles in particular seemed to never trust Spike again. Even after he manage to get control of the trigger.

But I see your point, and I pretty much agree.
I do think though that Spike was much more complex than Angel.
Would say that the group never really knew what to think about Spike, even though he helped.
While Angel was clearly there to help and therefor it got easier to accept and forgive his soul-less behavior.

/SK

 

[DarkAvenger]

yes, i know he killed people with a soul but it wasnt his fault! so i hated the way everyone treated Spike in season 7 (well, except buffy, 😀 ). He was just trying to help them and when p. Wood wanted to kill him what did giles do? Giles took buffy to the cemetery so Wood could kill him! and of course, if wood had succeded in killing Spike, Buffy'd never find out what happened to him because Giles would never tell her the truth!

And they never did this kind of thing with Angel. Angelus killed Miss Calendar and i never saw giles trying to kill Angel! WHy? because he had a soul and he was not the same person who killed his "girlfriend". But with spike.. nahh Giles knew buffy had feeling for Spike and he knew he wanted to help (not to impress Buffy, he really wanted to help) and he didnt care. so.. boooo Giles ::thumb::

 

[Airam]

I think he ran around doing mean evil things because it was fun and he was expected to, but when he was forced to stop, it wasn't as much of a loss as it would have been for another vampire--.

I completely agree. Its like he felt an obligation to fully embody the bad ass vamp persona when clearly he never even came close to being as purely evil as Angelus was. Spike as we know felt great pressure right after being turned to measure up to Angelus, but even that early on we saw that he had retained some humanity which I think is showcased by the fact that he turned his mother to save her from death rather than just kill her like Angelus an most vamps did with their parents. And then when she instantly was just pure demon and wanted to jump his bones he killed her but it was clear how hurt he was hurt by the whole sequence of events.

Don't forget that soul-having Spike in season 7 had that trigger.
He killed quite a lot of people in season 7 even with the soul. Which made him harder to trust.
Giles in particular seemed to never trust Spike again. Even after he manage to get control of the trigger.

Right and that right there is another illustration of the double standard. Spike had that trigger but it was something being done to him he had no control over it until Wood confronted him with it, and yet like you say Giles in particular never trusted him again and it wasn't even Spike's fault, yet with Angel (like DarkAvenger already pointed out) he killed Jenny and Giles eventually was able to see him as an ally again.

But with the chip Spike didnt do the good for the sake of good he did it to impress Buffy...Also the only reason he got his soul was so that Buffy would allow herself to be with him which he wanted so dearly.

Let's say for argument's sake that that is true, eventhough I don't for a second believe it was anywhere near that cut and dry. From what we were shown the main reason Angel started the good fight was also Buffy. Whistler showed him Buffy and that is what enticed him to help and then he started helping but for 3 years Buffy was always his priority and hell we find out that even later on AtS he continued to keep tabs on her behind her back. It wasn't until he moved to LA that his reason to fight wasn't to help Buffy. Yet Spike is expected to be a soulless creature and want to save the world and go out and get a soul all without a little incentive? Why don't we give him the same time to come into his own as we did Angel?

Angel isnt able to do good without a soul: we saw what happened in btvs and then in ats: he turned into a murderer. Spike, he was able to do good and help people when he didnt have a soul. I'm sure if they did a spell to spike lose his soul he wouldnt turn into a mass murderer like angel, he would be like s06 spike.

That is such a great point. In a way Angel's soul worked like Spike's chip to neuter him, because without the soul Angel immediately turns into a murderous monster. Spike is just Spike: pre-chip, with chip, no soul and with soul, his personality never changed, it was never a Dr. Jekyll Mr. Hyde thing with him. Whatever humanity he had or conscious knowledge he had about right and wrong despite being without a soul led him to start helping and eventually seek out his soul because he messed up and he didn't want to mess up again. And all of those factors put together, to me, are biggest testimony to his strength and will power.

 

[sk]

Right and that right there is another illustration of the double standard. Spike had that trigger but it was something being done to him he had no control over it until Wood confronted him with it, and yet like you say Giles in particular never trusted him again and it wasn't even Spike's fault, yet with Angel (like DarkAvenger already pointed out) he killed Jenny and Giles eventually was able to see him as an ally again.

Guess the different is that Giles was never sure that the trigger was truly gone. He was afraid that the first could still get control over Spike.
I think Giles was wrong though. Especially that he didn't trust Buffy enough to trust Spike gets to me.

/SK

 

[Blondie Bear]

I think Giles was wrong though. Especially that he didn't trust Buffy enough to trust Spike gets to me.

True. They (mostly) trusted Buffy when she said that Angel was cured, and she was only 17-18 then! And now when she's 21 suddenly her judgment is in question? Her judgment of a vampire who she's very rarely claimed to love (as opposed to Angel when every other breath was "I love him/you!")? What's up with that?

 

[Lou]

The chip has never meant much of anything to me. I think it was just the catalyst that made the Scoobies stop and get to know him.

He helped in S2 without the chip.
He wasn't exactly here to kill the whole town in S3.
He did get a LITTLE wonky in S4 of Buffy and S1 of Angel, but it's really the WORST we get to see him at...those two episodes.

But, he didn't have to stay in Sunnydale. Sure, he wanted to, but there were plenty of other doctors and scientists he could have threatened to get the chip out.
But, he stayed, made friends, helped out....and NOT to impress Buffy at first.

Even without being able to kill himself, I've always believed Spike could have continued to be evil whether he had the chip or not. He didn't HAVE to turn to the Scoobies, he could have simply gotten minions.

He's a better guy, or vampire, than Angel. And there's not the risk of if he loses his soul he would start to go nutty on the world

 

[MSchett]

You honestly think he would kill ppl if he didnt have a soul or a chip! He was evil he didnt change because of the chip he just got his violence out on demons, because he could no longer do it to humans... The reason Spike didnt get minions is because

a) Buffy obbession(itd really piss her off)
b)the thing he loved most about being evil is the violence(whats the point of having someone else do your violence for you)

Sure Angel did start the good fight because of Buffy but he didnt do it too impress her... He did it to help her

Spike on the otherhand made it obvious that he was doing it to impress her like when the Troll attacks the bronze(Triangle) Spike says to Buffy, (something like this) "look im not feeding on these helpless dieing victims" Buffy says" Am I supposed to be impressed?"

 

[Lou]

littlewilly agrees: He was also a better human. Liam or William? I mean, when Liam was vamped he didnt really change. William did though.

Spike didn't change much when he first got vamped. All with the Momma's boy and kind of being a wimp and not sticking up for himself with Angelus.
He just got better at it, over time.

You honestly think he would kill ppl if he didnt have a soul or a chip! He was evil he didnt change because of the chip he just got his violence out on demons, because he could no longer do it to humans... The reason Spike didnt get minions is because

a) Buffy obbession(itd really piss her off)
b)the thing he loved most about being evil is the violence(whats the point of having someone else do your violence for you)

Sure Angel did start the good fight because of Buffy but he didnt do it too impress her... He did it to help her

Spike on the otherhand made it obvious that he was doing it to impress her like when the Troll attacks the bronze(Triangle) Spike says to Buffy, (something like this) "look im not feeding on these helpless dieing victims" Buffy says" Am I supposed to be impressed?"

But, Spike wasn't obsessed with Buffy in S4. He did all sorts of crazy things. Help Adam turn them against each other for instance. He could have easily gotten minions to do evil things for him. Maybe turn some Initiative guys so that he could get the chip out.
I'm not saying he had to stay away from violence with minions forever, but minions could have helped him with the evil plans of chip removal.
Instead, he chose to help out and fight the demons that it helped the Scoobies to fight. He could have gone after peaceful demons and worked against them.
There are many options he had other than, "I have a chip, I should work with the good guys".

I guess that's the part I don't get. Just because he had a chip doesn't mean he had to be good, or work with them, or not find a new way to create chaos. It's not like we actually saw him killing people right and left before the chip. He had ways to be "evil" that didn't involve constantly killing people. He was still "evil" in the wheelchair, but he wasn't running about slaughtering people. In fact, there was very little showing him actually biting anyone, and yet, still considered "evil" in the first seasons.

He didn't have trouble getting people to dig for the Gem of Amara for him. Or even scaring the crap out of Warren when needed. I think he could have done LOTS of evil, had he wanted to.

 

[Relic]

I think with Spike a weak vampire inhabited a gentle but strong willed person. I think thats why so much of his humanity has worn off on the deamon side of spike, drinking smoking, soccer, watching Passions, feeling love..not lust, not wanting acathala to succeed.

With Angelus we have the opposite, a weak willed mortal and a raging deamon.


whats funny is the effect it had on them....Spikes side whittled away at the vampire in his case, while Angelus finally gave Angel a backbone by way of attrocity, regret, and guilt.

Would the mortal Angel run if he was somehow pulled out of time and put into everyday Buffy preadictaments? I'd bet yes.

Would William? No, I'd bet he'd help...then die probably quick like.

William was no coward, to read his poems and me mocked took wrinklies. I think the deamon had a hard time moving into Will's real estate.

On the other hand with Angel....he wanted the escape at first and his deamon is nasty.....

I bet the chip would not have worked on him.

(Sorry so sloppy, I'm cooking!)

 

[T.I.P]

I bet the chip would have worked on Angelus

 

[Relic]

^^^^sorry for the double postage....never mind, Willy to the rescue!

I wanted to clarify for Willy what I thought.....

The demon part of spike in the human hybrid that makes a vampire, was weaker willed than the human souls ingrained character.

Or I'm full of hot gas! Either way just my yammerings and thoughts 🙂

 

[T.I.P]

I dont think it makes a diference what kind of demon you are, the chip would work anyway. Why would Angelus be so special?
And imo, the only reason Spike lost his evilness was because he got chipped. Even if he could have got other people to do his fighting for him, its not the same as doing it yourself, the chip forced him to be nice.

 

[Relic]

I guess I just see Angelus either overpowering the chip (not likely I'll admit, just a bit of bigbad fanboyism) or doing like Spike was early on and being the criminal mastermind but giving that role some longivity and more 'danger'.

Spike fell in love with Buffy...somehow I don't see the chip causing that.

On the other hand, Angelus has a very twisted definition of love, I don't think it would have mattered for him as much.

Likely flawed, I know 😉

 

[T.I.P]

I dont think the chip itself caused Spike to fall in love with Buffy, but he would never have acted on it or even realized it if he wasnt chipped. He had a choice when he got chipped, be a pathetic vampire or help the Scoobs.
Also, i dont see how Angelus could possibly overpower the chip.

 

[Lou]

littlewilly agrees: william changed big time, who knows how long it took, when he turned his mother it was only a couple nights later

True, but he was changing his mother to be sweet, not to be evil.