Spike as a Champion

[Lindsey McDonald]

Actually there was one episode where Angel was quite happy for Spike to get out of there, he really didn't want him around, W&H had Spike bound to it, it was the amulet mojo stuff or something.

I was actually talking about after he was freed. He had the chance to go find Buffy, but didn't. There was a period of 4-5 episodes when he had no good reason for being in LA. It was just so inconsistant. By the end of Buffy Season 6 he travelled to the ends of the earth to get a soul for her, but now he was so obsessed with his image that he didn't even look for her? He actually thought she would prefer to remember him rather than be with him? It just didn't gel, not after everything they went through Season 7. Maybe this is just the Spuffy viewpoint talking, but come on... He even went searching for Drusilla after she left. I would have loved to have a scene where Giles denies him or something, but no. He just gave up. I just think it was bad writing.

 

[white avenger]

.
I love how you still somehow manage to make Spike chickening out Angel's fault...it's funny really. Apart from his intial first attempt a leaving W&H Spike didn't exactly break his back trying to find the girl he claimed to love. It was much later when he decided that ANgel needed his help.

And I love how you constantly defend Angel, no matter how predictably he turns a bad situation worse and then spending a week brooding over what happened. No wonder Spike volunteered to deny him three times.

And why is it cowardice when Spike decides to stay in LA because he knows that he will be needed there, but heroic when Angel runs away from Sunnydale and the woman he claims to love because he fears his inner beast? (Maybe Angel should have spent a summer in that cave like Spike did, and then we wouldn't be discussing it)

 

[T.I.P]

Why would Spike want to go see Buffy anyway? He may have loved her but he was too sensible to
realize that thay aint ever gonna be together again, what would be the point? Just so he could torture
himself by being around her even though nothing would have happened!

 

[Tranquillity]

I have always interpreted Spike staying in LA and not running off to Buffy not as fear, but as him wanting to prove to HIMSELF what he could do with his soul. He was always plagued by the idea that he only was good, only got the soul, was only a champion because of Buffy and that it was all just an attempt to 'get into her pants' (as crudely suggested by Angel in Destiny) and at the back of his mind he may have been wondering too. So by staying in LA he gets to see if he's sincere in his desire to fight on the side of good, see what he can do with himself, by himself. I find it very believable that he would stay in LA.

Side note: I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that Spike has told Buffy that he is alive already. I can understand him temporarily exhiling himself away from her but, as he got more confident, after Andrew visited, after the sham with Lindsey was revealled, after Cordelia died - I'm almost certain that Spike would have gotten in contact with Buffy - well, that's my theory and i'm sticking to it🙂

 

[Julian]

And I love how you constantly defend Angel, no matter how predictably he turns a bad situation worse and then spending a week brooding over what happened. No wonder Spike volunteered to deny him three times.

And why is it cowardice when Spike decides to stay in LA because he knows that he will be needed there, but heroic when Angel runs away from Sunnydale and the woman he claims to love because he fears his inner beast? (Maybe Angel should have spent a summer in that cave like Spike did, and then we wouldn't be discussing it)

Angel does end up in bad situations but I fail to see how he makes it worse. At the end of season 4, Angel had just stopped Jasmine, Cordelia was dead and the only way Connor could be saved was through a devil's pact with Wolfram and Hart. Please tell me how he made that worse or possibly get worse.

You seem to forget that Angel did not go to Wolfram and Hart because he wanted to. He went there for his son. He understood the consequences and he took that road anyway because of his love for his son. This act was done several times by other BTVS character including Spike, who turned his mother into a vamp. So if you are referring to Connor being the bad situation and Angel making it worse, go ahead. But remember that he isn't the only one who made a devil's pact out of love. You also have Giles, Buffy, Willow, Spike, Gunn, Connor, etc...

Now in Wolfram and Hart, he was in new territory. He tried to do good as it was shown in Conviction. He tried to hlp the girl in the alley (since that seems to be your argument about Spike "fixing" Angel's mistakes) but he soon found out that things have changed.

It was like the moment he got his soul or learned about the shanshu all over again. He was in foreign territory and learning to adjust to a new set of rules. Just like Spike when he was resurrected and when he got his soul.

Since he got his soul back, Angel struggled to figure out right and wrong on his own. This was a guy who had to build an entire system of belief from scratch and it happened all over again in season 5.

Spike had Buffy when he got his soul. He had someone who to help him through the rough spots. He also got someone else's purpose - Buffy's. When he came to LA, Spike needed "Doyle" to give him the motivation he needed and after that he turned to Angel. Up until the comics, Spike didn't have his own mission. He followed others.

Angel on the other kept struggling (and failing) to find one even despite his constant failings. e.g. We saw him rescuing a puppy in season 4 and we saw him attempt to rescue that girl back in the 60's.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that Spike has had it easy. He's always had it easy. IMO because the writers are scared of putting him in the same gray and moral situation as Angel.

When After the Fall first came out, I found a lot of Spike fans who were spitting blood over Spike hanging around with Spider in the Playboy mansion.

Angel has had to deal with a lot of things. Unlike Spike, his soul is his curse so he should be scared of his inner demon. He has a son who hates him. WR&H is constantly trying to screw him. And the list keeps going...

These are things which require hard gray decisions, something which Spike doesn't deal with very often because he doesn't have a system of beliefs other than his own emotions.

What do I mean? Angel apologised to Holtz after the guy stole his son, after he threatened to kill him. Spike threatened told Wood that he didn't give a piss about his mother.

YOu see where I'm going with this. Angel get's gray areas and lot's of them. He get's thrown into nasty situations. In contrast to Spike's case (after he got his soul), he'd rarely encountered the same deep moral dilemmas. And there's nothing wrong that IMO. Each one to his own, but don't start about what a great character Spike is because Angel get's the crap of the universe dumped on him.

Just to be clear, I don't like or dislike Spike. But when certain fans start bashing Riley, Xander, Giles or Angel just to inflate him, that's when I have to jump in.

 

[percepto girl]

Though Spike not telling Buffy that he's alive doesn't sit too well with me most of the time, I always thought there could be a number of reasons for this, one of them being his believing in the possibility of being Shanshued. If I remember correctly, it isn't until the very end of the season that both vampires find out that this won't happen for them...or something like that, I've only seen Ats s5 once. But up until then, he believes this is a possibility, and he mentions it a couple of times during the season. So, maybe part of the reason why he stayed and didn't say anything was because he hoped to return to Buffy as human.

 

[Kean]

And I love how you constantly defend Angel, no matter how predictably he turns a bad situation worse and then spending a week brooding over what happened. No wonder Spike volunteered to deny him three times.

And why is it cowardice when Spike decides to stay in LA because he knows that he will be needed there, but heroic when Angel runs away from Sunnydale and the woman he claims to love because he fears his inner beast? (Maybe Angel should have spent a summer in that cave like Spike did, and then we wouldn't be discussing it)

See that's the thing, Angel had a genuine concern with Angelus. He knew nothing about the curse, only that happiness caused him to lose it! He didn't know what the guidelines were on that, how much happiness constitutes as true? They were walking a tight rope being together he had no choice but to leave. And before you start on about him making choices for Buffy lets remember one thing, she had tried to leave him several times during the course of season 3 and just couldn't do it. He was forced to make the hard decision, just like Joyce and the Mayor told him he had to.

Spike on the other hand, his situation was safer than it ever had been in the time he knew Buffy and still nothing.

 

[white avenger]

Okay, Angel left Sunnydale because he realized that, as long as he was there, he would never feel completely safe from his metaphorical "evil twin brother," Angelus, around Buffy. He walked away, very dramatically, into a cloud of smoke after helping stop the latest apocalypse. (He also left so that he could get his own show that's beside the point). Spike left Sunnydale in a cloud of smoke (literally), also after helping stop the latest apocalypse. Ultimately, both men stayed away for the same reasons: they thought that they were doing the right thing for Buffy (and probably for themselves), and so that they could become better men away from the Slayer's influence. With her, they would never be anything more than side kicks. (And, no, Spike was NOT Angel's side kick in Season 5, he was a thorn in his side. Different thing entirely).

Every time Angel came back to Sunnydale, and every time Buffy went to Los Angeles, it ended badly for both of them. Maybe that was the real reason Spike stayed away, and he felt that it would be easier for both of them if she just didn't know that he was back. (When there was a real reason for him to go back, when she needed him, or so both he and Angel believed, he didn't hesitate, regardless of the consequences of what she would or wouldn't say or do to him.) Maybe he was just taking a page out of Angel's book, and making a decision affecting someone else's life without allowing them to have any input into the matter. Maybe he did just take the coward's way out and avoid the entire issue by just not taking any action. Maybe he was just tired of being so close to someone he knew would never love him as much as he loved her.

Yes, he should have called her, and yes, if he wasn't physically able to do the actual dialing himself, he probably could have asked someone else to do it for him, as painful a pill to swallow as that might have been for his "big bad" self image. Even if he could not have found her, since, as we now know, she was never where either he or Angel believed her to be, Spike should have had at least one scene in the entire season where he was shown as trying to call and explain his actions. I think that that would have, ultimately, been a greater exhibition of his final overcoming of self doubt, of becoming the man he wanted to be, and a greater personal triumph, than the poetry slam, not to mention a much more powerful scene. As far as that goes, I think that the fact that neither Spike nor Angel made any attempt to contact the woman they both claimed to love was a real missed opportunity on Joss' part ( a really great scene, to me, would have been, after the others had left the room for their last day, the two vampires had looked at each other silently and nodded, then the scene cut to the two of them leaving a recorded message on "Buffy's" answer machine in Rome. It would have been the perfect way to show that they had, at last, become true allies, if not friends)

Speculation on what could have been or should have been is, as someone else has said, pure "fan wank." Fun. One of my most fun things to do here, or anywhere else that I can get a decent conversation going about any subject that I feel strongly about.

(Incidentally, if the above seems somewhat more somber than my previous posts, it's just that I tend to be more serious before I've had my coffee in the mornings. Don't worry folks, I'll be just fine once the caffeine kicks in.)

 

[Angel's vision]

I think Spike wanted to be a hero in Buffy's eyes, so staying "dead" was his option, so she would remember him that way, and IMO that isn't a bad thing.

 

[Blondie Bear]

If you've ever had a really emotional good-bye, especially one that was going to be final, and then with one thing and another actually SAW the person again (and I don't mean years later, I mean before the plane/bus/train left), you'll understand how awkward it can be. I think Spike was trying to avoid that awkwardness as well.

 

[white avenger]

For those who might have thought yourselves safe in my absence, (and you know who you are) shake in your inexpensive but stylish boots. I'm back. Now, where were we when the time zones so rudely interrupted? Oh, yeah...

Spike was a coward because he didn't contact, or at least TRY to contact Buffy the moment his incorporeal feet metaphorically hit the floor in Angel's luxury office at Evil, Inc.

Okay, I think that I can safely say that, while Spike might not have been the brightest bulb in the string, one thing he most definitely was NOT is a coward. He proved that plenty of times over the years. So if fear wasn't the deciding factor in his procrastination, just what was? Okay, his secret is finally out. Spike has always been a closet Barry Manilow fan, and the only way that he can feed his habit without anyone knowing is to hang around in the elevators at Wolfram & Hart.

I have to agree though that there should have been a scene somewhere, sometime, showing Spike at least trying to call Buffy, even though he would have been unsuccessful given what we now know about her true location. Not calling was inconsistent with Spike's character. He WOULD have tried to call, and the whole "how can I just show up now after going out a hero and saving the world," was a total crock. It just wasn't Spike's style, and I blame the writers and Joss for it. If Spike was anything, it was impulsive. He showed that time and again, crashing in where a more cautious man would hesitate. It cost him his hands in "Damaged," and the man who would do that isn't gonna hesitate to make a simple phone call. Remember what he said to Buffy? "I make a lot of wrong bloody calls. I follow my blood, which doesn't exactly run in the direction of my brain." The man who said that wouldn't have sat in LA brooding about love lost and chances not taken. That was Angel's style.

 

[Superstar]

Sure, I'll play Devil's Advocate. Whynot? Might be fun.

The main question seems to be why didn't Spike contact Buffy.

So, let's take a look at the situation. Spike dies in a literal blaze of glory finally acknowledging that Buffy does not love him in the precise manner he originally intended when he began his quest for a soul - you can blame the new insight on the soul itself; pesky, stingy thing.
But... she does respect him now, which is something she really didn't do before and he knows it.

Flash forward to Wolfram & Hart (a place that Buffy, Giles and the rest are aware of apparently at this time) aka Evil Inc.
Spike is now a ghosty thing tied to W&H. Well, that's not good. Even worse is that Angel is CEO.
He dies fighting the good fight and is brought back by Evil Inc. which is now Angel's company.
Now that's pretty craptacular from his point of view on many levels. Was it the good fight after all?

So, does he call Buffy and say Hey! I'm back! And I'm stuck at Evil Inc. in ghosty form. Whatcha think about all that?
Oh, and since Angel is CEO of Evil Inc. and gave you the thing that helped you win and killed me, do you think maybe there was a nefarious plan to that? Maybe Giles can look into it if he's not planning on killing me again. Hugs and Kisses! Thanks luv. Bye.

Flash forward again to boxy thing in the mail from someone unknown, and obviously not from Buffy Inc. (cause he never told them) that mysteriously makes him corporeal again while making everyone else and the entire office a bit bloody looney literally. Wow, that can't be all good if it makes people bloody and crazy. But... corporeality! Hey! Harmony. Easy shag to celebrate with anyway cause they're all evil ponces.

Ok, should there be a call to Buffy now? Say Buffy, I was dead, then ghosty and tied to Evil Inc. Then a flashy-thing went off and now I'm not ghosty anymore. Oh and that champion thing? Maybe not so much. Sorry about that. Blame the gel-man. It's his fault. Did you know he was CEO of Evil Inc. when he gave that thing to you? I'm not sure if I'm out of hot water here yet or even what's going on exactly. Please come help me. Bring flowers, candy and a pony. Talk to you soon.

Flash forward to Shanshu-out-of-the-bag. WTF? Angel says it's BS but really he's interested in it? Oh really?
Well, if Buffy really doesn't love me, I'm sure not going to let her get Angel-breath again with his real breath!
Let's just take care of that little problem right now. Besides, if I can stick it to Angel then it's all good.
WTF? It's mountain dew? Well crap. Does that mean this Shanshag thing is real or not?

Should I call Buffy? Hey Buffy! Remember that Evil Inc. amulet you got? It killed me. I was dead, then ghosty, then not ghosty and all of it was Evil Inc.'s doing. Oh, and Angel is working on this thing that'll make him human. Won't that be nice?

Flash forward to Andrew. Oh crap! He's a watcher now? Well that's just bloody brilliant. Now Buffy will find out. Just great. Well at least I can show Buffy that I'm still the champion she thought I was and that Angel used to be, 'cept I'm not all moody and deluded like he is. Demented slayer... no problem. Little geek is following me. Well, now that we're away from Angel I can ask about Buffy... and nope, no one told her I'm alive, that means if Angel is talking to her he ain't sayin all he should. Good for me. If he ain't talking to her, then good for me. Ok, I'll tell her when I'm ready then long as the ringlord here keeps his trap shut.

 

[white avenger]

Spike was supposed to be on "Angel" for the entire season, so they couldn't have him call Buffy or leave for Europe in search of her in the third or fourth episode. They came up with the idea that he didn't think that she would welcome him back after such a spectacular exit and stood by it for the entire season, but "the dangerous Spike, the Spike that tried to kill (Buffy) when they first met" simply wouldn't have stayed with Angel, who he hated, rather than try to find the girl who he had endured all of that torture for. Especially after she finally said the three words that he had been longing to hear for three years.

He served as a perfect foil to Angel, making his life miserable at chance that presented itself and even making a few up, "I'm listening. With beer." and no doubt he enjoyed the he** out of every minute of it, but he had shared too much with Buffy to ever just give up. No way.

 

[T.I.P]

If spike believed even for a split second that he and Buffy could be together, im VERY sure he would have went to Europe to be with her.
And, Not calling wasnt inconsistant with spikes character. despite what people say, Spike may not have been book smart, but he did have common sense and was good at understanding people. NO ONE in this thread yet, has given one good reason for Spike to call Buffy(and simply 'loving' her is not a good enough reason on its own)

Ring Ring.
Buffy: Hello!
Spike: Hey Buffy, its me....
Buffy: Oh my god, spike, what... how.... huh?
Spike: Well the thing is Buffy(he then explains what happened)
Buffy: Oh Spike, im sooooooooo happy. Seeing as im still in love with you, why dont you come to Scotland and we can live happily ever after!

I dont think so.

 

[Superstar]

Spike was supposed to be on "Angel" for the entire season

Well of course that's the realistic answer.
That, and SMG was done with Buffy. So not much hope there of resolving either of the vamp romantic dilemmas on Angel.
Besides, it would be interesting plot-wise for Angel and Spike to first dislike each other, then compete and finally form a reluctant friendship.

Everyone's usually looking for the "in-universe" answer to things, not reality.

 

[white avenger]

If spike believed even for a split second that he and Buffy could be together, im VERY sure he would have went to Europe to be with her.
And, Not calling wasnt inconsistant with spikes character. despite what people say, Spike may not have been book smart, but he did have common sense and was good at understanding people. NO ONE in this thread yet, has given one good reason for Spike to call Buffy(and simply 'loving' her is not a good enough reason on its own)

Ring Ring.
Buffy: Hello!
Spike: Hey Buffy, its me....
Buffy: Oh my god, spike, what... how.... huh?
Spike: Well the thing is Buffy(he then explains what happened)
Buffy: Oh Spike, im sooooooooo happy. Seeing as im still in love with you, why dont you come to Scotland and we can live happily ever after!

I dont think so.

Say whatever you want to say about Spike, he never left his women, they left him (even Harmony). And when they DID leave him, Darla, at least, because as far as we know he was with her for his entire time as a vampire until he got his chip. The man who unhesitatingly described himself as "love's bitch" would never leave Buffy willingly, and if he were forced to,(let's say, for instance by burning to ashes to save the world) he would relocate heaven, hell, AND half of Europe to rejoin her.

(And certainly, Angel left because he wanted her to have a normal life, but at least part of that normalcy was having a boyfriend who wouldn't turn into a monster and try to destroy the world every time she, as Xander so eloquently put it, "gave him a happy." It wasn't necessarily a HUMAN love interest that he wanted for her. Remember his only comment after meeting Riley? (and after trying to turn him into a puddle although he couldn't have tried very hard. Riley was good for a human, but not THAT good. Angel HAD to be holding back) "I don't like him." Not "I'm so happy for you, Buffy. Finally, you can work on your tan again."

Angelus was a part of Angel, and only a suppressed part, never a completely controlled one. Even WITH a soul, the evil, more ruthless side of his personality was barely under the surface, ready to come out any time Angel really lost his temper. Angel feared him, and he feared what he was capable of, especially to Buffy and her friends. If it weren't for that, he never would have left Sunnydale.

 

[T.I.P]

I dont think Angelus was the big factor there though, i mean, he did, and could again have turned into Angelus when in LA, around Wes and Cordy and the others, but he didnt seem to worry about it that much. imo, it was definetly the 'cant get married, have kids, walk in the daylight' aspect rather than the Angelus one. But i agree with the Reilly thing. Angel was definetly holding back, i think he just wanted to slap Buffys new boyfriend around a bit.
[br][/br]
Edit:
[br][/br]
I just want to add to that. If Angel in s3 wasnt cursed(just ensouled) Joyce would still have had *that* talk with him, and i still say he would realized it was the right thing to do and just left. Pretty much the same reason spike didnt call bBuffy.

 

[white avenger]

I dont think Angelus was the big factor there though, i mean, he did, and could again have turned into Angelus when in LA, around Wes and Cordy and the others, but he didnt seem to worry about it that much. imo, it was definetly the 'cant get married, have kids, walk in the daylight' aspect rather than the Angelus one. But i agree with the Reilly thing. Angel was definetly holding back, i think he just wanted to slap Buffys new boyfriend around a bit.

Despite his stated vows of wanting Buffy to have a normal life and a normal relationship, his fear of Angelus and what he was capable of was definitely a factor in Angel's leaving. His plan once he got to Los Angeles was to keep to himself, not to form any kind of relationships (like in "Are You Now, Or Have You Ever Been"). Doyle, Cordy, and to a lesser extent Wes, Gunn, and Fred came to him, and pretty much had to force themselves on him.

Angel's original plan was to sit alone in his basement apartment, only going out for pig's blood, probably drawing pencil sketches of Buffy and brooding about the cruelty of his fate. The "Help The Helpless" thing wasn't in his original plans.

 

[Superstar]

The "Help The Helpless" thing wasn't in his original plans

Eh. I'll have to disagree a bit here. Only because he was dusting vamps before he met Doyle.
I don't see Angel as going out to a bar "for fun" and accidentally recognizing some vamps and deciding to dust them.
Agreed, it may have been an exceptional thing, but the going out to a bar just doesn't fit in with broody-moody Angel.

Now, after Doyle things got a bit more focused with a direct link to someone in need of help from a "valued" client of W&H in the first "vision" and Angel is now on W&H radar. After that, the "help the helpless" angle he was employing slowly took a nose-dive as the obsession increased on both sides - Angel and W&H.

 

[Kean]

Everyone's usually looking for the "in-universe" answer to things, not reality.

I'm not getting smart here hun but why would we look for answers other than the "in-universe" ones? Reality has nothing to do with it. All we can do, having watched the show and enjoying the characters, is use what Joss and the writers gave us. If we look for the "real" answers so to speak well then it would be the Buffyverse at all.

The reasons you gave in your other post make sense to you and me if I am being honest as to why someone would not call Buffy but they do not make sense when applied to Spike. Every single thing we had seen of him do up to that point totally contradicted his choice to not contact her. Spike doesn't think like that, he just acts. He is "love's bitch" afterall, he doesn't care how pathetic he comes off ( and he really does come off pathetic at times), he would have moved mountains to see her. I don't doubt that or a second but instead the writers decided to turn him into coward (disagree all you want WA but in that decision he was cowardly). I know why they couldn't have had him go after her but they gave a God awful reason.