Spike as a Champion

[T.I.P]

Every single thing we had seen of him do up to that point totally contradicted his choice to not contact her. .

Um, No.

Also, Spikes decision not to call wasnt cowardly. Just sensible. Didnt you notice, he seemed to get less pathetic when he came to terms with his soul.
If he called Buffy, What, exactly, would he have said or what would he have hoped happened?

 

[Tranquillity]

I also think that Spike stayed in LA because of Angel. I don't think that Spike hates Angel as much as he makes out. I think he actually idolises Angel just as he did when they were bad old vampires together. I think Spike looks at Angel as a kind of mentor - who better to help him ajust to life without Buffy and a shiney new soul than his old pal Angel who has practical experience in these departments. The snark between them is largely rooted in the fact that Angel rejects Spike and so Spike's reaction is to be snarky and annoying which makes Angel dislike him even more. It's like a whole vicious cycle thing. But the funny thing is that Angel doesn't actually hate Spike at all. There's a lot of love there under all the fighting, competativness and rivalry (not in a slashy kind of way either).

 

[Kean]

Um, No.

Also, Spikes decision not to call wasnt cowardly. Just sensible. Didnt you notice, he seemed to get less pathetic when he came to terms with his soul.
If he called Buffy, What, exactly, would he have said or what would he have hoped happened?

Um..no? you might want to expand on that...it's not much of an arguement.

Well maybe just letting her know he was alive would be something., regardless if anything else came out of it, he owed her that much at least.

 

[Tranquillity]

leethehost said:

If he called Buffy, What, exactly, would he have said or what would he have hoped happened?

How about just say hello, I'm alive (and maybe expand on that particular story a little bit, it's quite a good story). And then that he was staying in LA for his own reasons (and then maybe tell her a little about those). It has the makings of a nice phone conversation - it's not like they have nothing to talk about or that contacting Buffy would have he would have neccessarily went running off after her once again...

 

[T.I.P]

when in s5 angel told Spike to go away, (i dont remember exactly) but did Spike not have a boat ticket, Europe bound(possibly to see Buffy) but he decided not to at the last minute? He probably just though 'wait a minute, what am i doing here, this is the wrong decision'. He had a moment of clarity, so he returned to angel, who i agree, he really loves, despite his act.

 

[white avenger]

The reasons you gave in your other post make sense to you and me if I am being honest as to why someone would not call Buffy but they do not make sense when applied to Spike. Every single thing we had seen of him do up to that point totally contradicted his choice to not contact her. Spike doesn't think like that, he just acts. He is "love's bitch" afterall, he doesn't care how pathetic he comes off ( and he really does come off pathetic at times), he would have moved mountains to see her. I don't doubt that or a second but instead the writers decided to turn him into coward (disagree all you want WA but in that decision he was cowardly). I know why they couldn't have had him go after her but they gave a God awful reason.

Read posts 31 and 33 above, Miss K, we're in almost total agreement (feel the earth shake!) except for the cowardly part. Well, actually that to. Our difference there is that the Spike that we have watched evolve from Seasons 2 through 7 of "Buffy" simply COULD NOT commit the admittedly act of cowardice that was depicted in "Angel" Season 5. Right, wrong, or indifferent, Spike WOULD have found Buffy, if it took the rest of eternity. It simply wasn't in his nature not to. Women left Spike, he never left them. But there were only two viable reasons that would have remained with Angel.

1) He called Buffy and she rejected him. Bad idea, because Joss simply DID NOT want to give official closure to the Buffy/Spike/Angel thing, it stirred up too much interest (like right here) and would keep the fans coming back for more.

2) For some reason Spike chose not to call or otherwise contact Buffy. Also a bad idea, because it was completely out of character for Spike. Angel, maybe. Spike, never.

Okay, three reasons

3) Some time in those 19 days between the closing of the hellmouth and Spike's appearance at W&H, something fatal had happened to Buffy, leaving Spike heartbroken and probably slipping back into insanity. That just ain't gonna happen! No further explanation necessary.

What was chosen was the easiest, in fact the only one that they could have chosen, simple because it kept everything else in the Buffyverse basically intact. The only glaring inconsistency was that it went totally against Spike's character. We can joke about whether he stayed in LA in order to bail out Angel, or to torture him, or maybe even that he fell in love with Fred at first sight, but the fact remains that, yes, the act was cowardly, but it was an act that was totally and completely against Spike's nature as it has been developed for the previous 5 years. He could no more stay away from Buffy than he could morph into a bat like Dracula. Either the writers screwed his character up, or the wrong Spike came back. Either way, Spike, the REAL Spike is most definitely NOT a coward.

 

[Superstar]

The reasons you gave in your other post make sense to you and me if I am being honest as to why someone would not call Buffy but they do not make sense when applied to Spike.

Well thanks for that! I even tried to make them amusing. As for Spike...

Every single thing we had seen of him do up to that point totally contradicted his choice to not contact her. Spike doesn't think like that, he just acts. He is "love's bitch" afterall, he doesn't care how pathetic he comes off ( and he really does come off pathetic at times), he would have moved mountains to see her.

Hmmmm. I think pre-soul Spike, sure. Slave to passion. Screw what others thought. Pathetic? Sure, Buffy doesn't have a whole lot of respect for that.

Afterward, not so much. In fact, he tended to shy away from contact - granted he was kinda loopy at the time and admits freely that he didn't want her to see him that way. He even *gasp* seemed to think things through a bit more after being not-so-loopy. Actually he was too shy and Buffy calls him on it big-time - dude just can't win with her. So, he goes to get his coat and becomes something a bit more like he was, but with more rational thinking. He still needed to get his mojo back and enjoy the fight and the kill instead of just doing it out of loyalty to Buffy and the good fight. Balance Daniel-san. Balance.

I don't doubt that or a second but instead the writers decided to turn him into coward.. I know why they couldn't have had him go after her but they gave a God awful reason.

Well, since you did agree that the reasons were somewhat "sensible", it *was* really more a matter of circumstances.
Pre-soul Spike, yep, all done to impress the lady. There would have been no hesitation or embarrassment.
Impressing the lady, not so much in season 7. I can't think of much of anything he did outright in order to "impress".
Afterward (post-ghosty), I think he just tried to do the right thing even if he didn't know a whole lot about what that meant without Buffy as his guide - and something that needed to be fixed unless he wanted to be just a Buffy groupie instead of an equal. It wasn't until "Doyle" that he had some sort of focus - plus pissing in Angel's wheatabix was a breakfast he would love to serve the old sire.

Shortly after Andrew was the whole Fred/Illyria thing to complicate matters even more. If you think the Cavemen vs Astronauts was anything but a reflection of their views (Spike more instinct / Angel more reason) with a Buffy subtext then....
And in the end Angel and Spike came to something of an understanding between themselves - an agreement to disagree; or in other words a middle ground to the Cavemen vs Astronauts argument where both views had to change and meet in the middle. All in time for the "last good fight".

Except...

I think "coward" is too strong of a word. If "coward" is used on anyone it would be Angel, but even then perhaps too strong of a word.

 

[T.I.P]

I really dont agree this was 'out of character', thats just personal opinion.
Imagine, SD didnt get destroyed when the Hellmouth did, and Spike appeared in SD instead of LA, then i think
more than likely he'd have went straight to Buffy.
But the way it worked out, being a ghost, having months away from Buffy, even shagging Harmony, id say this
stuff put Spikes situation in perspective. Gave him time to realize going to see Buffy was maybe the wrong choice, but
this isnt out of character, or contradicting everything Spike done on Btvs.
I think if it was me, id have done what Spike done. Other people may not have, but it does not make it cowardly.

 

[Kean]

Hmmmm. I think pre-soul Spike, sure. Slave to passion. Screw what others thought. Pathetic? Sure, Buffy doesn't have a whole lot of respect for that.

Afterward, not so much. In fact, he tended to shy away from contact - granted he was kinda loopy at the time and admits freely that he didn't want her to see him that way. He even *gasp* seemed to think things through a bit more after being not-so-loopy. Actually he was too shy and Buffy calls him on it big-time - dude just can't win with her. So, he goes to get his coat and becomes something a bit more like he was, but with more rational thinking. He still needed to get his mojo back and enjoy the fight and the kill instead of just doing it out of loyalty to Buffy and the good fight. Balance Daniel-san. Balance.

First off kudos for the Karate Kid quote. Much respect😀 and ok I will admit that Spike was less likely to act on instinct in season 7 than previously but like you said that was really only until he was free of The First afterwards he, as you said, got his mojo back.

Well, since you did agree that the reasons were somewhat "sensible", it *was* really more a matter of circumstances.
Pre-soul Spike, yep, all done to impress the lady. There would have been no hesitation or embarrassment.
Impressing the lady, not so much in season 7. I can't think of much of anything he did outright in order to "impress".
Afterward (post-ghosty), I think he just tried to do the right thing even if he didn't know a whole lot about what that meant without Buffy as his guide - and something that needed to be fixed unless he wanted to be just a Buffy groupie instead of an equal. It wasn't until "Doyle" that he had some sort of focus - plus pissing in Angel's wheatabix was a breakfast he would love to serve the old sire.

Shortly after Andrew was the whole Fred/Illyria thing to complicate matters even more. If you think the Cavemen vs Astronauts was anything but a reflection of their views (Spike more instinct / Angel more reason) with a Buffy subtext then....
And in the end Angel and Spike came to something of an understanding between themselves - an agreement to disagree; or in other words a middle ground to the Cavemen vs Astronauts argument where both views had to change and meet in the middle. All in time for the "last good fight".

Except...

I think "coward" is too strong of a word. If "coward" is used on anyone it would be Angel, but even then perhaps too strong of a word.

Ok I pretty much agree on all the above points (except the coward one but I'll get to that in a minute). If we go with the point that Spike was more inclined to think things out first instead of just reacting then I still think he reacted badly.

At the end of season 7 I think Spike was very much Buffy's best friend. He knew her better than Willow and Xander at that stage in my opinion. So, how could he not think that Buffy wouldn't want to know he was alive? I just do not by that at all. Regardless of whatever macho reasons he throws out he must have known that Buffy would be happy to know he was alive.

As for the coward thing...well I still stand by it. In that moment I think he completely bottled it. Spike NEVER believed in doing things for Buffy's own good and protecting her. Yes, he got the soul but that was to make him worthy of her not protect. That was never his thought process, so why is he thinking that way now? Surely it can't be Angel's influence.

Angel, on the other hand, genuinely believes he is doing what is right. It's just the way he is and he has always been that way. He doesn't do it out of fear he does it because he beleives it's the right thing to do aand because he's a martyr.

That's why I think Spike's reason for not seeing Buffy is cowardly because it just doesn't reflect who he had been for seven seasons.

 

[white avenger]

That's why I think Spike's reason for not seeing Buffy is cowardly because it just doesn't reflect who he had been for seven seasons.

I can fully agree that not calling, or at least TRYING, to call Buffy was a cowardly action, I simply contend that Spike has never, in all of the time that he has been on either show, would never, COULD never commit such a cowardly act. Impulsive, certainly. Stupid, quite possibly. But never cowardly. The closest that he was ever portrayed to showing fear in any way was a single step back from the ledge in the ubervamp cavern, and that was completely understandable.

If we have to rule out the simple fact that the writers made a mistake portraying Spike in such a fashion, e have to assume that there was some other, outside, reason for his actions The amulet has been fairly well accepted as being intended for Angel, not Spike, to wear. Maybe Spike's inability to call Buffy was part of its influence, intended to keep Angel from calling his most powerful ally for assistance. In any case, I believe that the only thing that would have kept Spike from calling immediately, if only to assure himself that she was alright, would be some kind of outside influence. Call that a compromise if you want to, gloat if that's your inclination, but that's as close as I can come to calling Spike a coward under any circumstances.

 

[Kean]

I can fully agree that not calling, or at least TRYING, to call Buffy was a cowardly action, I simply contend that Spike has never, in all of the time that he has been on either show, would never, COULD never commit such a cowardly act. Impulsive, certainly. Stupid, quite possibly. But never cowardly. The closest that he was ever portrayed to showing fear in any way was a single step back from the ledge in the ubervamp cavern, and that was completely understandable.

If we have to rule out the simple fact that the writers made a mistake portraying Spike in such a fashion, e have to assume that there was some other, outside, reason for his actions The amulet has been fairly well accepted as being intended for Angel, not Spike, to wear. Maybe Spike's inability to call Buffy was part of its influence, intended to keep Angel from calling his most powerful ally for assistance. In any case, I believe that the only thing that would have kept Spike from calling immediately, if only to assure himself that she was alright, would be some kind of outside influence. Call that a compromise if you want to, gloat if that's your inclination, but that's as close as I can come to calling Spike a coward under any circumstances.

Gloat? Me? Never...😉

Maybe Superstar has a point, maybe coward is too strong a label to stick to Spike but his actions or inaction to be more precise was cowardly. I may have a pair of Angel tinted glasses but they have nothing to do with what I think of Spike on this topic. Angel doesn't even come into it.

 

[Superstar]

Yes, he got the soul but that was to make him worthy of her not protect. That was never his thought process, so why is he thinking that way now?

Who said "protect"?
I said "not groupie" and "equal".
The soul itself isn't enough to Buffy.

Angel, on the other hand, genuinely believes he is doing what is right.

Actually, throughout season 5 Angel slowly comes to the conclusion that maybe his choice to take on the CEOship was a big oopsie after all. The rest of ex-Angel Inc. try to reassure him that no, it was a good call. He doesn't believe them and gets moodier and moodier about it.

That's why I think Spike's reason for not seeing Buffy is cowardly because it just doesn't reflect who he had been for seven seasons.

You mean for six seasons. Different dude in season 7.
Angel season 5 Spike is farther along the path to his middle-ground.
The funny thing is... Spike learns from Angel and the presence of Spike teaches Angel a few new steps.
Two extremes that begin to blend into something better than either were apart.

Angel, who knew Spike was not the sharpest tool in the box comes to realize that he's a bit different now and it irritates him to no end to have SPIKE of all people inform him "dude, WTF are you doing? If a certain Slayer could see you now..."
And then to have Cordy come in and verify what SPIKE! has been saying and what he's already been having doubts about by showing him up close and personal... well that was enough to send Angel on his path of extreme corrective measures. Admit to Spike that he was right... not Angel's style. Best to just get him out and away from his mess and let him take over the "helping the helpless" role both now have abandoned. But, he did soften on him a bit at the end and recognized that there must be something there if Buffy saw it - irksome as that thought is to him.

Both united immediately in two instances without argument; Fred dying and Buffy with the Immortal (you gotta be kidding me! Him?).
The hole in the world gave both some perspective as well. There are deeper things and meanings in the world.

 

[white avenger]

Gloat? Me? Never...😉

Yeah, and that dance you're doin' right now now is just a traditional Irish jig, right?

Just be forewarned, little lady, that he who gloats last has to wash the dishes.

Or is it, the last one to the dinner table gloats longest.

It's something like that, anyhow.

Just be on the lookout for it, whatever it is. Not that you'll see it coming till the cows come home.

What were we talking about again...?

 

[Kean]

Who said "protect"?
I said "not groupie" and "equal".
The soul itself isn't enough to Buffy.

I was anticipating you bring up him getting the soul for Buffy. Sorry about that, I have been having this discussion for years, sometimes I get ahead of myself!

Actually, throughout season 5 Angel slowly comes to the conclusion that maybe his choice to take on the CEOship was a big oopsie after all. The rest of ex-Angel Inc. try to reassure him that no, it was a good call. He doesn't believe them and gets moodier and moodier about it.

I was talking about the entire series of Angel (and parts of Buffy too I suppose) not just his decision to take on W&H. One regretful decision doesn't change that.

You mean for six seasons. Different dude in season 7.

No I meant seven seasons. True he was different after the soul (as should he be) but I still think once he was rid of The First he came back to his old self, as much as he could. Look at how he reacts to the Scoobies when they flung Bffy out of house and home? He reacts, he doesn't think about what the effect his actions would have on the fight, he doesn't care if the Scoobies were right (which they weren't) he goes to help Buffy, no matter what that meant for the war against the The First and had the best night of his life as a result.

 

[white avenger]

. Look at how he reacts to the Scoobies when they flung Bffy out of house and home? He reacts, he doesn't think about what the effect his actions would have on the fight, he doesn't care if the Scoobies were right (which they weren't) he goes to help Buffy, no matter what that meant for the war against the The First and had the best night of his life as a result.

Whether you're a Spuffy, Fuffy, Bangel, Cangel, or any of the other "uffies" or "ngles," that was undoubtedly the second best Spike scene in the entire series, toped only by his "you're the one, Buffy" scene. Plus he got to tear into Faith.
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"I don't know about one of his best scenes but he definitely reacted the right way"?

That was the first time Spike got to be a hero, a real Champion, without being tortured or recovering from being tortured. He finally got to cuss out (figuratively, anyhow, it's still a family show) Giles, Xander, and Willow. The biggest thorns in his side through the entire series. Well, not Willow as much, but still, he got to stand up to all of them, to rip into them for betraying the person that they literally owed their lives to a dozen times over. The people who chose Faith over Buffy at what turned out to be the prelude to one of the most critical moments in the greatest apocalypse that they had ever faced. In that one moment he began to finally justify all of the faith and trust that Buffy felt for him, and you don't know whether it was one of his best scenes or not?

I guess everyone's entitled to their own opinion...

Did I mention that he gets to tear into Faith?


(Somehow, two posts got combined, which might cause some confusion. Sorry about that. The Powers That Be The Buffy Boards did it, not me)

 

[Superstar]

I was talking about the entire series of Angel (and parts of Buffy too I suppose) not just his decision to take on W&H. One regretful decision doesn't change that.

Well that part is also up for debate I should think.
Season 1 - Sure he thinks he's doing the right thing.
Season 2 - Starts off that way and then the Darla obsession comes in. Right/Wrong not a part of that equation.
Season 3 - Ok, back to doing the right thing, except he's not calling the shots anymore - Begin Connor drama.
Season 4 - Whole helping the helpless thing goes to the wayside due to the full blown Connor drama.
Season 5 - Helping the helpless thing... wow that isn't working out as well as he envisioned.

He reacts, he doesn't think about what the effect his actions would have on the fight, he doesn't care if the Scoobies were right [or not]

You're right, he doesn't care what the scoobies think.
He comes back from a mission Giles sent him on to discover that they've outed Buffy and betrayed her.
Considering the previous action of Giles, Robin and the attitudes of the potentials, not a big surprise.
He mentions that the little speech was prepped for him as if that will sway everything.
He does everything but call them stupid gits because he learned Buffy was right about her objective while on his mission.
He also knows they aren't going to listen to him. Faith calls him "whipped". FIGHT! FIGHT!
He goes to find her to convince her to go back and take control again.
This IS for the good of the war.

 

[Kana]

Yeah, I'd agree that cowardice is perhaps too strong a term. Humanly insecure (if I were to legitimize what the writers are possibly trying to convey) maybe is a better way of putting it. I think with all his bravado. I suppose one could complain about consistency but we are a product of her experiences and yes Spike is a different person with a soul and with that soul (and more importantly experiences) not mattering to Buffy means more, and is more painful. Getting tactile proof of that is much more frightening than facing demon trials for example. I definitely agree Spike was more reflective in Season 5 but he doesn't lose his ability to connect which has always been stronger than Angel. He sees Harmony's pain while Angel doesn't and although he may seem more 'coawrdly' , this new perspective gives him the ability to connect, maybe even respect(?) Harmony at least a little because now he's connected a little more with himself. If he ever did decide to see Buffy it would be for the right reasons and it would begin with him respecting himself more and believing he is deserving of love and respect. If he's not quite there yet then maybe he isn't ready to see her and that's fine, it's ok to be a little about yourself if that means that in the long run, you'll both respect each other and yourselves as equals in the relationship, which is something I don't believe Spike truly ever had with Buffy or with anyone?

 

[The Arcane]

I've said before around here that one of the reasons that Spike is my favourite Whedon show character is because I get him. From day one of him arriving in Sunnydale he reminded me of me, with the obvious exception of the slaughtering of innocent people he used to enjoy. I try not to do that. 😉

With that in mind though, I totally understood his reasoning to stay in LA. He knew that Buffy didn't love him, at least not enough. Hell, he even admitted that to her at the end of Chosen. The one thing he knew he could be to her was a champion who sacrificed himself to save the world and running back to her again once he was able would have taken even that away. He truly believed that she would never really love him and made the choice to let her go. Not that he would ever admit that to Angel, naturally.

So it wasn't so much a cowardly decision as it was one of acceptance. The time he spent bound to Wolfram and Hart gave him the chance to come to terms with what he meant to Buffy and so when he was finally able to go to her, he realised it was for the best not to do so. At least not immediately, anyway.

I've always believed that becoming a champion and staying on in LA to fight the good fight was Spike subconsciously wanting to prepare himself for the day that he crossed paths with Buffy again. That way his champion status would have been proven by a lot more than simply letting himself burn in the Hellmouth and that he would be more worthy of her in his own mind. Maybe that will be covered in an eventual story in the comics.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I seem to recall Spike taking over Angel's job of "helping the helpless." Regardless of whether Lindsey had ulterior motives in the whole thing, Spike's actions were sincere. He might have been a bit sarcastic to some of the "helpless" that he helped, but, honestly, who would be stupid enough to wear high heeled shoes in a dark alley at night without knowing that she was bound to end up with a broken ankle if she was lucky and two tiny holes in her jugular if she wasn't? Spike fought the war while Angel sipped otter blood in his penthouse suite.

Amen. That's all I'm saying. 🙂
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I really dont agree this was 'out of character', thats just personal opinion.
Imagine, SD didnt get destroyed when the Hellmouth did, and Spike appeared in SD instead of LA, then i think
more than likely he'd have went straight to Buffy.
But the way it worked out, being a ghost, having months away from Buffy, even shagging Harmony, id say this
stuff put Spikes situation in perspective. Gave him time to realize going to see Buffy was maybe the wrong choice, but
this isnt out of character, or contradicting everything Spike done on Btvs.
I think if it was me, id have done what Spike done. Other people may not have, but it does not make it cowardly.

I agree with the 'out of character' thing. In reality, there were different writers for his character on Angel then there were for his character on Buffy.
In all truth, the real Spike would absolutely let Buffy know he was alive. Spike has pride, but not that much.
But of course, they had to keep him on the show, so they had to give him an excuse to stay.

 

[paisley]

She loved him because of his actions and in a way because of his death. It was the only pure and truly noble thing he did. He was alive for all those years and finally he had come to an end. And the end of his life (or death) couldnt have been more perfect. A true champion