Spike, Buffy, And Angel

white avenger

white avenger

white avenger
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Nope, nothing kinky. Just a question. Which vampire was changed the most by his association with Buffy? You can define "change" and "the most" however you prefer, just give your reasons for your opinion.
 
Angel. He is a complete and utter different person for knowing Buffy. He was nothing, wasting away in the back alleys of America before he saw her. She inspired him to be a man and eventually a Champion. He would either be dead or still eating rats if it wasn't for her.
 
Keanoite said:
Angel. He is a complete and utter different person for knowing Buffy. He was nothing, wasting away in the back alleys of America before he saw her. She inspired him to be a man and eventually a Champion. He would either be dead or still eating rats if it wasn't for her.
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Ummm.

I have to disagree.
If we look at the flash backs of Angel, such as the one from the 1950's and the Initiative, we actually get a glimpse of his Inate goodness.

Angel may have had a lapse just before be met with Buffy, but the 'Champion' was always in him, Buffy merely helped him to love.

Spike on the other hand, he changed from a truly foul and wretched beast, into a helpless kitten, into the selfish Spike who eventually got his soul and then transformed into a Souled Vampire who went on to be a Champion.

I am loathe to enter this discussion because I can already see where it will go BUT on answering the question "Which vampire was changed the most by his association with Buffy?" without adding a personal bias the answer HAS to be Spike.
 
Okay.. flip the question.. which vampire changed Buffy the most? That is harder to answer. And you can include Holden as well, as I think he had a big impact, in such a short time, on her.
 
So I decided to take it upon myself to relive the love and sadness that is season one of Angel. Specifically the episode I will remember you. I know that I have witnessed probably one of a thousand different conversations about which romance is truer. Bangel or Spuffy? Obviously everyone is entitled to their opinion and I can respect that but I have to say that for me, personally, this episode proves to me which relationship has the potential to be everlasting. The dialogue alone is proof enough but I digress. I cry even though it has easily been over ten years since I first saw it and I just have to say no matter what happens I will always be a Bangel for life. So yeah just had to so. Proceed.......................................BTW I hate when Doyle dies, but I love how it affects Cordelia. I am just saying.............
 
I'll say Spike...Angel was changed too, but:

Spike was originally the big bad, but he was affected by meeting Buffy in such a manner that he became less evil. He fell in love with her, but didn't admit it. Then the initiative put a chip in his head, and he sought help at the only ones he knew to go to: Buffy and her gang. Spike found out he ould fight demons, BUT why didn't he just leave Sunny-D then? He stayed and helped Buffy out from time to time, and gained money. Later on his growing feeling towards Buffy made him stop asking for money.
When Buffy died, Spike still helped the Scoobies, and it was because of Buffy. He was honoring her memory. And in the end Spike was so affected by Buffy and what he had done that he sougth his soul for her, and later died to save the world!
The last thing is something Spike never would have done if he hadn't known Buffy
 
I also have to say that Spike changed the most through his association with Buffy. By rights Spike should have stayed bad and evil, even with the chip in his head, but the effect of Buffy on Spike was enough to make him change in a relatively short space of time. I certainly think that Angel was changed by his association with Buffy too, but like it was said above, the soul already gave him the impetus to change and become a better person, Buffy just added some much needed momentum.
 
While we all know that Angel did in fact change due to Buffy's influence...

Of course I have to go with SPIKE. He sought out (& won) his soul to give her the only thing he had: himself. And after he got his soul, Buffy told him "you can be a good man; I know it." So he literally went from MONSTER to GOOD MAN.

Oh yeah! It doesn't get more "changy" than that!
 
For all the reasons everyone before me has already gone through I say that most definitely it was Spike that changed the most by knowing Buffy. Angel did too yes. Angel's road to redemption started off with Buffy as his motivation... but she was only a steady influence in his life for a short time, he moved away and I think most of his growth as a character happened on Angel so i think I better argument for Angel is to say that Angel was changed most by his association with Cordy :biggrin:
 
B
Blair Waldorf-Bass
Your posts are always so good. *does more oogling*
Airam said:
For all the reasons everyone before me has already gone through I say that most definitely it was Spike that changed the most by knowing Buffy. Angel did too yes. Angel's road to redemption started off with Buffy as his motivation... but she was only a steady influence in his life for a short time, he moved away and I think most of his growth as a character happened on Angel so i think I better argument for Angel is to say that Angel was changed most by his association with Cordy :biggrin:
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Why are your posts always so genius? *oogles again for the twentieth time* Although I ship Spuffy, I'm going to try to say this in an un-bias manner. While yes, Angel did change when he met Buffy, as BotD already said, he was already good when he had his soul BEFORE he met Buffy. He wasn't a useless guy, he actually did do good things. However, because he met Buffy he was able to find out some more about love, albeit in a high-school sweetheart kind of way.

However, I think Spike changed the most. I'm not saying this from a Spuffy point of view, because I did originally ship Bangel a long time ago, but I really found that he was the one who changed the most. Because of Buffy he (indirectly) got his chip, and when he got his chip he went to her and the rest of the Scoobies. He also worked with the gang and I really liked how he took care of Dawn. And when he didn't tell Glory that Dawn was the key, I knew then that I was a Spuffy shipper for life. 😛 It was great seeing him work with the Scoobies the summer that Buffy was gone, and his path to redemption from what he'd done at the end of season six and getting his soul was really what was beautiful about season seven, in my opinion.
 
Airam
Airam
*blushes* you seriously spoil my ego, lol. And I fully agree with your post as well :)
Hands down Spike.I mean he didnt want to kill her,he said hed kill dru for her(stupid i think),and not to metion he helped out the scobbies all summer when she was gone.

he saved and protected dawn,looked out for her just like he said he was gonna. he didnt have a soul and he did all that so whats that say?

Angel had a soul and he (I think) was helping her just so he could become human again...i know he didnt find that out till latter but come on! he wanted to help people so that they would forgive him for what he did before. so when he met buffy of corse he wanted to help her out. falling in love with her just happened.

thats why i think that spike has changed the most. he gave up everything to be the better man for buffy he fought for his soul. angel was cursed.
 
I actually think this one is a give-in...Spike, of course! He gave up everything he ever wanted just for a chance at being with her, and eventually, his love made him a full-blown Champion (possibly even more of one than Angel, but that's a matter of opinion.) And sure, you could say the same for Angel, but let's be honest; the difference between a vicious killer (albeit one with a chip holding him back, but I digress) and a hero is far more drastic than that between a guilty, rat-catching homeless guy and one.
 
They both changed in different ways, but I think that Angel always had the good in him (flashbacks show that in episodes), so Spike was definitely the one that Buffy had the most effect on. He went from being this completely evil monster to this wonderful man who happened to have the affliction of not being able to breathe. 😉 Like bloody pet said, Angel was cursed with his soul; Spike actually went through Hell to get his just for the sake of proving to Buffy he could and would change himself inside out for her.

As far as the one who had the most effect on Buffy? That was also Spike, IMO. She went from being this "swoony little high school girl" to this dark, tortured woman who found her solice in a man who was just as dark and tortured. It was beautiful.
 
BASBritt said:
They both changed in different ways, but I think that Angel always had the good in him (flashbacks show that in episodes), so Spike was definitely the one that Buffy had the most effect on. He went from being this completely evil monster to this wonderful man who happened to have the affliction of not being able to breathe. 😉 Like bloody pet said, Angel was cursed with his soul; Spike actually went through Hell to get his just for the sake of proving to Buffy he could and would change himself inside out for her.

As far as the one who had the most effect on Buffy? That was also Spike, IMO. She went from being this "swoony little high school girl" to this dark, tortured woman who found her solice in a man who was just as dark and tortured. It was beautiful.
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Yeah, I definitely think that Spike had the biggest impact on Buffy and Buffy had the biggest impact on Spike. While their destructive relationship in season six was not at all how I'd wanted and wished things to go between the two of them (it was so good how their relationship progressed from episodes three to seven [and a little bit of eight] but then it just seemed to stop). But still, that's the beauty and brilliance of Buffy. We get to see all sides of the main character, not just the sweet and adorable one, but the dark side. I think Josss took a lot of risks putting out Buffy's dark side and showing it to us, but I think it was a risk that was worth it.
 
Yeah... It definitely took confidence on Joss' part to realize that Buffy was loved enough by the fans that showing us a side to her that we might find hard to swallow wouldn't turn everyone off, you know? I have always loved that about Joss... He knew he could do it, 'cause he knew the true fans wouldn't turn away. Same thing with Willow and her sexuality. He knew he could, so he did. Brilliant!
 
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