Spike, Buffy and "Seeing Red"

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LadyLavinia

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Why is it that B/A shippers always bring up "Seeing Red" as an example that Buffy and Spike had no business being romantically involved with each other?

Why do they do that and completely ignore Angel's actions in late Season 2, when he stalked Buffy and threatened her with rape and murder, stalked her friends, murdered Jenny Calendar and tortured Giles? How on earth could you even stand the idea of a B/A relationship after that and still criticize B/S, based on the attempted rape in "Seeing Red"?

And please - spare me the excuse that Angel was "Angelus" at the time. So what if he had lacked a soul at the time. As I recall, Spike lacked a soul during the episode, "Seeing Red".
 
I'm so with you on that LadyLavinia. I couldn't have said that better. I have often wondered that my self...

Now people, this is an honest question and if it can't be a good respectful debate I will have to end it. Try not to get too defensive. This is NOT a Spuffy VS Bangle war it's a question and the topic needs to be stuck to. Feel free to add your two cents but no posts just debating who is hotter and NO bashing other members. If you can't do that then don't post. Everyones oppinions are valid as long as they are respectful.
 
I'm just wondering... when did Angelus threaten to rape Buffy? I remember all the rest of the stuff, but I don't remember that.

As a Bangel, I feel soulful Spike wasn't responsible for his soulless actions. BUT, soulless Spike definitely is. While I found Bangelus interesting, I never wanted her with Angelus. They had no real relationship outside of the fighting thing, I just think no real comparison can be made.
Spike and Angelus are BOTH on the same boat with the killing thing. As I recall, Spike did kill Ford... that was a person in Buffy's life just like Jenny was. Spike did team up with Adam to destroy humanity (as Angelus wanted to destroy the world in Becoming I/II). Spike did have Angel tortured in the episode In The Dark. Angelus never tried to force himself on Buffy, and he had ample chance to do so in Passion.

Either way, both were soulless and not responsible for their actions. My problem is that people wanted Spike/Buffy together after the attempted rape (before he went to get his soul).
Soulful Spike not to blame, Soulless Spike definitely to blame.
 
Yes but I think she means that a lot of people STILL hold that against Spike. And as for the Angelus rape thing, in my eyes that's up for inturpretation. He did rape others when he was evil before ever getting a soul but as far as Buffy goes, again, that is up to interpretation...in Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered Angelus says "I wanted to do something special for Buffy, well actually TO her..." Following the MO of his last obsession...Dru...he killed everyone she loved and drove her mad first. well, he had only killed Jenny and Buffy wasn't very close to her. I don't think he was done with her. I don't think he was there to kill her. Sure, even by that interperetation it's still just intent...but not much different. I don't even know if that is what LadyLavinia had in mind.

But I'm mainly in agreement that people still do tend to hold that against Spike even though he does have a soul now. And that is a bit bothersome when in comparison to Angel. But that's just my 2 cents.
 
Originally posted by Rayne
in Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered Angelus says "I wanted to do something special for Buffy, well actually TO her..."
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Ah, but that could've meant he wanted to turn her into a Vampire. Like he turned Dru. I don't really think Angelus did want to do that, I know I'm the oddball out but I think he loved her and that wouldn't have gotten her to notice him.

I do see your point though. 🙂
But yea, Soulless Spike is to blame not Soulful.
 
Well im a B/A shipper and I dont always bring it up when talking about B/S. But to me after the whole little incident, it would have been kind of weird for Buffy to get big lovey dovey with Spike, Joss said that he didnt intend to bring Spuffy together agian after the rape.

And for me one of the problems I had with Spike that sure you know he has a soul now but he acts exactly the same he did without a soul, the soul didnt really do that much for him except make him delusional for a day or two while as Angelus and Angel are 2 different people IMO. Sure Angel is able to out of it but just not that bad as he would go as Angelus.
 
Originally posted by Primal Slayer
And for me one of the problems I had with Spike that sure you know he has a soul now but he acts exactly the same he did without a soul, the soul didnt really do that much for him except make him delusional for a day or two while as Angelus and Angel are 2 different people IMO. Sure Angel is able to out of it but just not that bad as he would go as Angelus.
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Oh yea, I completely forgot about that. I've heard alot of people (not just us Bangels mind you) complain that Spike was pretty much the same as he was without a soul, and he didn't really show he had a soul at all until the final episode.
 
Well, he also wasn't as bad as Angelus was to begin with. And we saw Angel YEARS after the transformation. That and they are two different people so they aren't going to handel things the same. And just look at what was going on around each of them when their transformations took place. Besides, how fun would Spike be if he went all wimpery and tortured? They just didn't have the available time to let him go through those kind of changes unless you WANT it to be the Spike show...

Oh, God...we're off topic here...I can see us sliding into a who is better contest and that's not what this is about...
 
Originally posted by AngelsGirl
I'm just wondering... when did Angelus threaten to rape Buffy? I remember all the rest of the stuff, but I don't remember that.

As a Bangel, I feel soulful Spike wasn't responsible for his soulless actions. BUT, soulless Spike definitely is. While I found Bangelus interesting, I never wanted her with Angelus. They had no real relationship outside of the fighting thing, I just think no real comparison can be made.
Spike and Angelus are BOTH on the same boat with the killing thing. As I recall, Spike did kill Ford... that was a person in Buffy's life just like Jenny was. Spike did team up with Adam to destroy humanity (as Angelus wanted to destroy the world in Becoming I/II). Spike did have Angel tortured in the episode In The Dark. Angelus never tried to force himself on Buffy, and he had ample chance to do so in Passion.

Either way, both were soulless and not responsible for their actions. My problem is that people wanted Spike/Buffy together after the attempted rape (before he went to get his soul).
Soulful Spike not to blame, Soulless Spike definitely to blame.
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Angel and Angelus are one and the same. Angel is just as responsible for Angelus' acts, just as Angelus is responsible for Angel's. This bipolar view of Angel's personality just don't cut it. Just as I believe that Soulful Spike is responsible for Souless Spike's actions. Whether soulful or souless, he is one and the same.

Angelus is a dark manifestation of Angel's personality. And soulless Spike is a dark manifestation of soulful Spike's personality.
 
I think the reason people condem Spike and not Angel for pre-soul actions is because there really is no difference between the two. When you compare Angelus in season 2 to Angel they really are like two different people. But if you compare evil Spike to soul Spike there isn't a difference. If people actually thought about "Seeing Red" in a bit more detail they would realize you can't condem soul Spike for that. Even if it doesn't seem like it that was a different person. I'm no Spuffy shipper but you can't use "Seeing Red" to support Bangel.

In reply to LadyLavinia's post you are wrong. When people are turned into Vampires they don't turn into the dark version of themself. Their bodys are taken over by demons.

"When I sired her, I set loose a demon, and it tore into me, but it was the demon talking, not her" - Spike, Lie's My Parents Told Me

There are probably other quotes but thats all I can be botherd to get right now. Vampires are not manifestations of peoples personalitys. They are demons.
 
Originally posted by LadyLavinia
Angel and Angelus are one and the same. Angel is just as responsible for Angelus' acts, just as Angelus is responsible for Angel's. This bipolar view of Angel's personality just don't cut it. Just as I believe that Soulful Spike is responsible for Souless Spike's actions. Whether soulful or souless, he is one and the same.

Angelus is a dark manifestation of Angel's personality. And soulless Spike is a dark manifestation of soulful Spike's personality.
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See, that I don't believe at all. I think there is a very clear line between Angel and Angelus. We saw this in Orpheus, they are completely different. Angel is disgusted by Angelus, and Angelus is disgusted by Angel. They are not one of the same. At least in my view, they aren't.

And yea, No Angel is right! It was also said in the episode Angel on BtVS:

Angel: When you become a vampire the demon takes your body, but it doesn't get your soul. That's gone!

The demon took over Angel and Spike, soulful, they are NOT responsible for what the demon inside them did when they were soulless.
 
i think often Angelus seemed so much more evil that Spike without a soul, people maybe dont distinguish teh difference between Spike with a soul and without as they do with Angel and Angelus, who with both of them i think are totally different.

Ones a demon while the other is mostly human, at least mentally human, just not physically in both cases
 
Originally posted by No Angel
Vampires are not manifestations of peoples personalitys. They are demons.
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I remember hearing somewhere that vampires can take on some aspects of the human's personality, partly because the demon has all that person's memories... I dunno. I guess it makes sense though, as far as Spike & Angel go. As a human, Liam was way more "bad" than William. Therefore, Angelus is completely ruthless while Spike can still fall in love and be less brutal-merciless-killer-like.

Oh I remember now - check out this awesome article from the-buzz.com: The Greater Capacity for Good - Comparing Angel and Spike

(hope I'm not getting too OT - sorry!)
 
Not actually, if you look at Liam when he is first turned, he did not care about killing people he just wanted to kill his father.

Darla is the one who made Liam into Angelus and convinced him to become the vicous vampire he is known for now, if Darla had left him alone after she turned him Liam would not be that vicious and be somewhat like Spike.
 
Originally posted by Primal Slayer
Well im a B/A shipper and I dont always bring it up when talking about B/S. But to me after the whole little incident, it would have been kind of weird for Buffy to get big lovey dovey with Spike, Joss said that he didnt intend to bring Spuffy together agian after the rape.

And for me one of the problems I had with Spike that sure you know he has a soul now but he acts exactly the same he did without a soul, the soul didnt really do that much for him except make him delusional for a day or two while as Angelus and Angel are 2 different people IMO. Sure Angel is able to out of it but just not that bad as he would go as Angelus.
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I'm sorry, but I find your reasoning questionable.

One, Angel and Angelus are NOT two different people - even if he acts differently whether in souled or souless state. The show's characters like to pretend that Angel and Angelus are different. And so do many fans. Angel and Angelus are one and the same. Souled and souless Spike are one and the same.

If you can't stomach Buffy forgiving a souled Spike for what happened when he was souless (namely the attempted rape), then how can you stomach Buffy for forgiving Angel, after souless Angel's actions in late Season 2? It sounds as if you're giving Angel leeway, simply because you prefer B/A. Well, I prefer B/S, but I refuse to pretend that souless Spike and souled Spike are two different people. And I also believe that not only does a souled Angel has to take responsibility for souless Angel's actions, a souled Spike should take responsibility for souless Spike's actions.
 
Originally posted by LadyLavinia
Angel has to take responsibility for souless Angel's actions, a souled Spike should take responsibility for souless Spike's actions.
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Which I believe they are both trying to do...in thier own ways. Just because Spike isn't lurking underground holding himself doesn't mean he isn't suffering too. He learned to deal with things very differently just as you and I do. He DID hold himself responsible and that is why he went and risked it all to get his sould back. So yeah, I agree, if anyone loves Angel over Spike that's great. But using the attempted rape as shipper war amunition is just silly. Spuffy may not prevail in the written form but it won't be for that. And that also doesn't say that Angel is better. He TAUGHT Spike to be that way so you know he's done things just as horrible if not worse. And if you're only going by Buffy...that's putting blinders on. Especially if your trying to say Angel is better. Niether one is better than the other. And if you think so, great, but that should really not be a point used.

Btw, Angels Girl, you said before that maybe he way going to CHANGE Buffy like he did Dru...but he made Dru crazy first by taking everything away from her. He seemed to be MUCH more obsessed with Buffy and with what she represents I would say that he would want to do a MOJOR number on her before she switched. But that's just my theory. 😉 (Not saying you're wrong.)
 
I dunno, Spike wasn't always nice. He was still without a soul, and in Season 2 and alittle of Season 4 (where he teamed up with Adam) he wasn't too nice. I get what you are saying though. Spike was suppose to be this vampire who had alot of humanity in him as well. That made sense, right?

Also, I still am sticking by my thoughts that Angel and Angelus were nothing at all alike.
 
Originally posted by LadyLavinia
I'm sorry, but I find your reasoning questionable.

One, Angel and Angelus are NOT two different people - even if he acts differently whether in souled or souless state. The show's characters like to pretend that Angel and Angelus are different. And so do many fans. Angel and Angelus are one and the same. Souled and souless Spike are one and the same.

If you can't stomach Buffy forgiving a souled Spike for what happened when he was souless (namely the attempted rape), then how can you stomach Buffy for forgiving Angel, after souless Angel's actions in late Season 2? It sounds as if you're giving Angel leeway, simply because you prefer B/A. Well, I prefer B/S, but I refuse to pretend that souless Spike and souled Spike are two different people. And I also believe that not only does a souled Angel has to take responsibility for souless Angel's actions, a souled Spike should take responsibility for souless Spike's actions.
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Well lets see if Angel or Angelus tried to rape Buffy I wouldnt really forgive him for that and I wouldnt be all oh Let Buffy and Angel get together!

You may look at Angel and Angelus being one in the same but I just dont.
 
wow... isn't this a fun conversation?

Just wanted to put my two cents in.

First of all, I agree with the fact that B/A fans ALWAYS overlook all the bad stuff that Angel did to her as Angelus and as Angel. I mean, as Angelus..... stalking, hurting, murdering, torturing, etc, etc, etc. As Angel.... well, for starters... he freakin left her! He didn't even say good-bye. What a great guy. And then making the decision to turn back time in IWRY without consulting her.

And then.... if he is so in love with Buffy.... what about all of that stuff that he did (not directly) but indirectly to Buffy? Obsession with Darla, sleeping with Darla, Cordelia, having a child with Darla, coming to Sunnydale full of immature jealousy? The list just goes on and on.

And yes, Spike is not perfect either. Far from it. Way far from it. He is new at this soul thing (remember~ Spike has only had his soul for almost two years, and Angel has been dealing with it for what? 100 years?)

And an answer to one of the statements: "Spike has not acted any different with his soul (except for the few days in a basement)

News Flash: Spike is NOT Angel. They react to thing differently.

(Angel fans are gonna love this) Spike may not act differently with his soul, because he was already on the path to 'redemption' before ever going to attain his soul. He had helped out the Scooby gang for two years by that time, and stood by Buffy, loved her and respected her for just as long. So, a soul on Spike doesn't look any different than the Spike that we already knew (after developing from season 2 and 3) He was already a good guy.... and it just makes him look even better now! (there's my Spike pride showing through!)

Spike's soul came into play many times during season 7. When he found out that the First was using him, and the episodes that he kept himself chained in the basement for safety. Being respectful of Buffy when she was on her 'date' with Wood. And also, being the ONLY person who was there for her during the time of betrayal. (oh, and knocking Faith around too was great!)

So, both the vamps have made mistakes. Angel for leaving her, Angelus for causing extreme brutal chaos in her life, and Spike for attemtping to force the relationship. So, both the things cross out, and I will continue to ship with Spuffies! Sign me up for Spuffy any day!
 
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