Spike got lamer when he loved buffy?

[zobothehobo]

I agree with this 100%. I almost feel now when I really think about it, to me it is not Angel or Spike it is Buffy. You put them in a relationship with her and they are looked at as lame or they don't grow so it is a loose loose. I do love Spuffy but sometimes it seems like it is this way.
I love Spike in season five of Angel I think that is what makes season five of Angel so great. I think Spike on his own is an amazing character and when you look at him for him you see he is more than Spuffy. I can say that and I am a big Spuffy supporter.
Like you said Buffy is great on her own as well. Just in the pilot of with her and Willow she shined and was so happy.
Maybe the relationships with the vampires take a toll on everyone involved. Then again she didn't seem to want to be with Riley. It is all such a big complicated mess. 😕

Part of me feels like the "problem" with Spike's development being he put too much emphasis on Buffy is more a problem with Spike himself. I mean let's examine the phases of Spike. There's William. He devoted himself solely to his mother and Cecily. Then there's evil Spike. He devoted himself solely to Drusilla. Then there's that period where Dru broke up with him and he had nothing... he then got Harmony, who he never cared about, but he needed a woman around... and devoted so much time and effort into Buffy... so it's only natural here that when he's chipped and he can't hurt her anymore he devotes his life to loving her. And souled Spike does the same. Devoting himself completely to the important women in his life is just who Spike is. You're right that's what makes his journey after being resurrected so important... because this was the only time in Spike's whole existence he didn't have a woman to devote everything to. But thinking Spike got lamer when he fell in love with Buffy because she was his whole world is more of a problem with the character of Spike and his personality than the relationship or development itself. I personally feel it would be extremely out of character for Spike to be in love with Buffy and act like he had some sort of life outside of that.

 

[TheVoid68]

I personally feel it would be extremely out of character for Spike to be in love with Buffy and act like he had some sort of life outside of that.

But the writers managed the right balance in S5, at least I felt they did. You're right in that it is in Spike's character to define himself by a woman, and his obsession with Buffy fitted into that. But he still managed to have scenes and bonds with many other characters in S5, all of which disappeared in the last two seasons. Just because Spike is motivated entirely by his love for Buffy, doesn't mean he can't have scenes with other characters. I don't think it would compromise the story at all.

People always say that Spike had the most character development of any character in the show, but from this perspective it seems that he had no development whatsoever. Like you said, he remains throughout his life defining himself by his affections for a woman. This does not change. That is why I would've greatly preferred Spike's character development to have not been Buffy-orientated. It would've been genuine character development for Spike to instead grow an identity of his own and find a life and self outside of women. We got glimpses of this with Spike's rejection of Buffy's love in Chosen and some moments in S5 of Angel, but it was a definite case of too little too late.

I agree with this 100%. I almost feel now when I really think about it, to me it is not Angel or Spike it is Buffy. You put them in a relationship with her and they are looked at as lame or they don't grow so it is a loose loose. I do love Spuffy but sometimes it seems like it is this way.
I love Spike in season five of Angel I think that is what makes season five of Angel so great. I think Spike on his own is an amazing character and when you look at him for him you see he is more than Spuffy. I can say that and I am a big Spuffy supporter.
Like you said Buffy is great on her own as well. Just in the pilot of with her and Willow she shined and was so happy.
Maybe the relationships with the vampires take a toll on everyone involved. Then again she didn't seem to want to be with Riley. It is all such a big complicated mess. 😕

Totally agree. And I love your sig banner. I kinda hate Matty/Franky, but Skins is amazing and I'm loving Gen 3 so far. 🙂

 

[TheVoid68]

Marisa agrees: I like them but then I kind of like how Nick is nice to her. I don't like Matty/Liv b.c i don't like liv lol loving it too pretty good so far

Nick protecting Franky was sweet. 🙂 But I have to confess, I'm a raging Mini/Franky shipper. 😀 I'm not really a huge fan of Liv either. I don't dislike her, I just don't really feel anything towards her. I nothing her. But I adore every other character.

 

[prophecygrrl]

But the writers managed the right balance in S5, at least I felt they did. You're right in that it is in Spike's character to define himself by a woman, and his obsession with Buffy fitted into that. But he still managed to have scenes and bonds with many other characters in S5, all of which disappeared in the last two seasons. Just because Spike is motivated entirely by his love for Buffy, doesn't mean he can't have scenes with other characters. I don't think it would compromise the story at all.

People always say that Spike had the most character development of any character in the show, but from this perspective it seems that he had no development whatsoever. Like you said, he remains throughout his life defining himself by his affections for a woman. This does not change. That is why I would've greatly preferred Spike's character development to have not been Buffy-orientated. It would've been genuine character development for Spike to instead grow an identity of his own and find a life and self outside of women. We got glimpses of this with Spike's rejection of Buffy's love in Chosen and some moments in S5 of Angel, but it was a definite case of too little too late.

Mm, I disagree here. While I think it's in character for him to fall head over heels for Buffy, at the same time, I think it still shows change. It's another stage in his character arc. You can easily trace the inspiration for his changes by accounting for the women in his life, but the change itself is still his own. I agree that by BtVS Season 7 and AtS Season 5 (and most recently, in the comics, if you read those), he starts to show another independent side of himself, but both circumstances, to me, should be counted as genuine change. Not just the time when he's not with a woman. After all, he'd never get to his destiny as an independent hero without Buffy's influence or any of those other relationships in his life.

 

[StarSlayer]

Can I just say two things?
A) There is a difference between disliking character development in general, and disliking the way a certain character developed. No, I didn't want Spike in S7 to be the same Spike we saw in S2. But I didn't want the Spike we got in S7.

That's a fair statement. While I do love the Spike we got in s7, I get it if others don't. I think it's a matter of opinion based on this character development.

This is the thing that bugs me the most about the whole Angel/Buffy/Spike thing. All three are really awesome characters that I love for the most part and have really great moments. But I find that every one of these characters becomes less interesting the more involved they are with each other. Angel and Spike for me shine brightest in scenes where Buffy isn't present. They both seem brighter, snarkier, friendlier, happier around other characters. And Buffy I love when she's interacting with Giles, Xander or Willow, where she's cute, spunky and fun-loving; when she's with a vampire she seems to be mopier, whinier, almost hollow. Even Angel and Spike, who are very entertaining together, are far better off when neither one of them is talking about Buffy. Episodes like Destiny and The Girl in Question grated on me for this very reason.

For me, it's really only Buffy and Angel (specifically in s3) where I felt the characters became less interesting when they were together. On the other hand, with Buffy and Spike, I felt the complete opposite, especially from s5 onward. I felt the characters became stronger, smarter, more interesting, and overall more entertaining through their interactions. And I absolutely love Angel and Spike together in AtS s5, but I guess for me I don't think they...well, more so Spike 😉...are better off not talking about Buffy. Buffy was a huge part of both their lives. So for them to not talk about her would seem like she didn't matter at all to them, when she clearly did.

 

[zobothehobo]

On this subject, I just read on a link Whedonesque posted when someone asked "Why do all the guys turn into pussys when they fall in love with Buffy?" And James' reply was "Because that's what happens when a man falls in love with a woman." I thought it fitting to add that here...

 

[Summerlilly]

I would have to say loving Buffy didn't make him "lamer". Loving Buffy saved his soul, literally. Maybe he wasn't as exciting because, well....isn't evil usually more exciting? Spike's love for Buffy was one of the core themes of the entire show. No matter how you started or what you did in the past.... everyone deserves a chance at redemption, to become a better version of themselves. In my opinion, a vampire that chooses to live forever paying for his sins by regaining his soul is to be admired. Loving Buffy is what kept his character going and evolving. Spike becoming good is one of my favorite parts of the show and he would never have done it without Buffy. Crazy, evil spike could be more entertaining, but in love, good Spike is what made me love his character even more.... and its what saved Buffy and ultimately the world.