Spike miniseries (spoilers)

[dexeded]

Got the two complete volumes a few weeks ago (along with the Omnibus. Yay for Spike!). I really enjoyed the entire miniseries, from Alone Together Now to Stranger Things. I thought Spike was written really well, and his thought processes were just so fun to read. Especially the bit where he's wondering who he should call for help and goes through all the choices--Connor, Angel, Gunn, Illyria etc.--before settling on Willow. And of course his Crowning Moment of Awesome when he became soulless but still good (which was expected, but still awesome). Spuffy nods much appreciated too. ^^

What did you guys thinks?

 

[Skytteflickan88]

Well, there's a few continuity errors (if it's pre-season 8, how come peopkle know about slayers) but I liked the story up until Spike got a soul and acted extremely OOC. I know that Spike sometimes told Buffy "I've changed, I'm a better man now" in season 6, and in a way he was, or at the very least, he knew how to act nicer to get into Buffy's pants, but he was still evil and loving it. He had killed people for over a century, and enjoyed it. Every good thing he did on the show as souless was either accidental(killing demons was sometimes good, but he did it for kicks, not for good) or as a way to please Buffy or someone else he liked.

So him saying "I was a good man before I got my soul"(or something to that effect) and giving that evil guy, who's names escape me, a Angel-wannabe speech about right and wrong really annoyed me. I think the author really lost his otherwise good grip on the character in the later half of that story.

And how Spike, who just a year or so earlier way crazy-in-the-basement from getting a soul, could think of putting a mad woman through all that pain a soul brings. What was he thinking?

 

[dexeded]

Well, there's a few continuity errors (if it's pre-season 8, how come peopkle know about slayers) but I liked the story up until Spike got a soul and acted extremely OOC.

You mean 'until he lost his soul', right?

I know that Spike sometimes told Buffy "I've changed, I'm a better man now" in season 6, and in a way he was, or at the very least, he knew how to act nicer to get into Buffy's pants, but he was still evil and loving it. He had killed people for over a century, and enjoyed it. Every good thing he did on the show as souless was either accidental(killing demons was sometimes good, but he did it for kicks, not for good) or as a way to please Buffy or someone else he liked.

So him saying "I was a good man before I got my soul"(or something to that effect) and giving that evil guy, who's names escape me, a Angel-wannabe speech about right and wrong really annoyed me. I think the author really lost his otherwise good grip on the character in the later half of that story.

I don't think he would've turned evil after losing the soul. He certainly wouldn't be a selfless champion, but he would still be on Buffy's side--the good side. It was his choice to get the soul, choosing to be good, even though it was for entirely selfish reasons.

 

[Skytteflickan88]

You mean 'until he lost his soul', right?

LOL, yes.

I don't think he would've turned evil after losing the soul. He certainly wouldn't be a selfless champion, but he would still be on Buffy's side--the good side. It was his choice to get the soul, choosing to be good, even though it was for entirely selfish reasons.

I disgree. He would want to torture and murder, just like before. He enjoyed it, and the only reason he didn't kill on the show was a)the chip and b)Buffy. Since he wouldn't have either one of those, he'd do what he loves. There's a small possibility that he would try to get Buffy back, which would probably have ended in failure and him killing people again. Or that he liked belonging to his new family of doogooders so much he gave it a chance, saving people, killing demons. But eventually, he'd want to kill humans(specially since Gunn and the others wouldn't trust).

To sum up, I doubt someone that liked killing people as much as we've seen on the show, could all of a sudden start caring for random people enough not to hurt them.

 

[dexeded]

I disgree. He would want to torture and murder, just like before. He enjoyed it, and the only reason he didn't kill on the show was a)the chip and b)Buffy. Since he wouldn't have either one of those, he'd do what he loves. There's a small possibility that he would try to get Buffy back, which would probably have ended in failure and him killing people again. Or that he liked belonging to his new family of doogooders so much he gave it a chance, saving people, killing demons. But eventually, he'd want to kill humans(specially since Gunn and the others wouldn't trust).

To sum up, I doubt someone that liked killing people as much as we've seen on the show, could all of a sudden start caring for random people enough not to hurt them.

But he had come a long way since his killing days. In fact, apart from the stint with the trigger, he'd last killed in early S4. And when Dru handed him the body to drink from in "Crush", he was hesitant in drinking from it. (Yeah, I know, pausing before drinking from an already dead body isn't commendable by normal standards, but these aren't normal standards. He was one of the most brutal vampires in history.) Buffy wouldn't have had to have known he'd drank. Then he had the whole thing of getting his soul and being a Champion. It's different from Angel losing his soul and becoming Angelus--as a soulless being, Spike was already moving to the path of good, albeit for selfish reasons. Souls are only vaguely defined on the show, but to me, they're basically our moral compass. Although he would lose his moral compass (and guilt from past crimes), he still had his feelings, his love for Buffy and attachment to other characters, the emotions that make him different from other vamps, which would motivate him.

But I guess it really boils down to your interpretation of Spike's character and the concept of souls.

 

[Skytteflickan88]

I think Spike hesitating to drink from the body, and kill that girl in Smashed, was because he was nervous. Like getting back up on a horse after being thrown off. And other than that, and this mini series, he never showed any possible remorse for his evil deeds while being soulless.

And getting his soul was most likely a desperate act from someone who thought that without a soul, he never had a chance with Buffy. He must have remembered how Buffy practically forgave Angel for what he did without a soul, and figured "If Angel could live with the guilt, so can I. And, Buffy will forgive me".

He never ever trully did good, because the people he helped, he didn't care about. He just cared about Buffy.

I don't know what a soul is in the Buffyverse, I just know it's important. Just looking at how different Willow, Angel & Spike act without souls, and seeing them with souls shows that. It's a moral compass, but also the ability to care for more than a few people. The soul also seems to make people able to feel empathy, thus tell the difference between right and wrong.

While I wouldn't fall of my chair if Joss made a statement tomorrow saying "Spike can be a good guy even without a soul", I would be one of the people whining on discussion boards saying "Then they must have written him badly for several years, considering this was never hinted at enough. The opposite has actually been shown".

 

[dexeded]

Opposite being shown of good guy soulless Spike... It depends on how you look at it. For example, I don't totally agree with your reason for him getting his soul, though Buffy's forgiveness was definitely a part of it. He was angry at himself, felt guilty--if that's even possible, as a soulless being. But I think in this case, it is possible, because it wasn't guilt of doing something evil; it was guilt of hurting Buffy, whom he loved. He broke his ironclad rule--I don't hurt you--and he was horrified at himself. Even knowing he was a monster, he was horrified at the new depths he'd sunk to.

As for empathy... yeah, a soul does give that. But you can still have feelings and emotions as a soulless being, and Spike felt those more than regular vampires. He was different from other vampires. His very first act (or one of his firsts, anyway) as a vampire was to turn his mother, to free her from consumption.