Spike's "attempted rape" of Buffy in Seeing Red

[The Arcane]

I'm pretty sure this subject has been discussed here before (in fact i'm almost certain) but it hasn't been raised as a seperate topic recently and with all the new blood arriving i thought it would be an interesting thread to start again with fresh opinions.

Personally, i have a hard time calling the events of that night "rape", or even "attempted rape", simply because of the person we are talking about. Spike, at that time, was a soulless vampire, basically incapable of being governed by the laws that our society has come to depend on. Rape is a human crime, commited by the intentional acts of a human being. Spike was a demon, acting on his primal instincts with little or no moral compass to guide him.

We would call the murder of one human by another a crime but in the world of Buffy we accept that vampires feed on human beings because we are food to them. They are not held accountable for their actions simply because they are not like we are. How is this example of a demon acting on it's basic instincts any different to that?

I'm not going to dwell too much on Buffy's part in this because it confuses the issue, but her actions do play a part in that night too. Again, in the case of a human attacking another human then i would be the first to say that if the girl says no and the guy continues, then that is rape. No doubt, no questions. However in this one specific case she was saying no to a vampire. Not only that but she had just spent the last few months saying "no" to him only to a few seconds later be on top of him in bed. The fact is that, even in the real world, her confusing actions may be enough to get even a guilty human guy off, if he had a good enough lawyer. How was Spike, again without a soul to guide him, really able to tell the difference between the "no" that night and all the "no's" he had heard Buffy say before?

Now, it's no secret that i'm a fan of Spike. He is my favourite character from the entire franchise in fact. Even so, i would not defend him in this matter if i truly thought that he was guilty of this accusation. Had this occured after he had his soul restored then i'd be the first to call it as the rape it would be. He would be accountable for his actions as a human being because he would have had a human soul.

The fact is though that i can't see how this one action that he carried out can be held in such detest when he had previously spent decades alongside Angelus, Dru and Darla, murdering, stealing, destroying and probably even raping (again, to use our terminology) other girls. I mean, don't for one second anyone try tell me that they don't think Angelus didn't take any woman he wanted over the years.

The only difference is that we believed Spike was trying to be better than that now, because of his feelings for Buffy. That doesn't change the fact that he was still not capable of truly understanding the difference between right and wrong.

I, personally, don't see what happened that night as rape. I see it as the actions of a confused and soulless demon who had been receiving mixed messages from a girl who had previously had no problem jumping into the sack with the guy, no matter what she had already said. So is Spike really entirely to blame for what happened?

 

[VisionGuy]

Wow, this is intresting and I have to say that i agree with you. Spike was souless and the only thing that he had to control him was the chip in his head. We can't hold him responsible for that because he was technically evil. Does anyone blame Angel for everything he did as Angelus? Or Cordy for her actions in season 4 of Angel? I don't because they were not in control of what they were doing. It was all the demon that was inside them. In Spike and Angel's case, the vampire and in Cordy's case, Jasmine.

 

[buffetofsporks]

I don't believe so, no. I think you hit the topic, sort of, on the head when you said that we thought he was trying to atone for his past sins. Obviously, this wasn't the case, because the only reason for his tame actions were due to the chip in his head, and of course, Buffy.

So I think, due to the fact that Spike is one of the most popular characters of either show, and due to his actions through most of seasons 5 and 6, it was almost easier to blame him for what he did and label him a "rapist". It's true, even for me, that some do tend to forget (for lack of a better term) that Spike was indeed soulless during those seasons because of the quote-unquote "good" deeds he had done ... even though we knew he did most of them because he really had no other choice.

All in all, I think with this instance, I agree that it was something any soulless demon would've done. But when it happened, I don't think some fans really thought of it that way. Most saw it as him "getting back" at Buffy or giving her a taste of her own medicine. "Using" her. I guess the fans expected more, which is why we were surprised. Joss is truly a genius.

Did any of that make sense? Hmm, anyways, good topic. I think we're going to get quite a few takes on the subject

 

[The Arcane]

Absolutely! It was because we had been fooled into believing that Spike was becoming a true hero when in actual fact he was a demon going through some incredibly confusing times.

At heart he was still a killer, willing to take whatever he wanted, same as any other vamp. On the surface, however, we saw his "survival guise", the one he created for himself to keep on Buffy's good side. At some point the two aspects of Spike mixed together, confusing even himself to the point where nobody really knew where he stood. To the point where you forgot what he really was. Where even he forgot what he really was.

Ironically though, i believe that it was the actions of this night we are discussing that were the "epiphany" that led Spike to regain his soul. Only by him realising that he had two conflicting natures did he understand that he needed to make that choice, to be one thing or the other. A man or a demon.

It was the final desperate act of the demon that ultimately created the hero.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Ok I would not call the incident Rape, but I would call it Attempted Rape, no Question!! I don't think Spike's actions can be justified, I believe that it was the guilt of what he had just attempted that made him get his soul, he was disgusted by what he had done and he wanted to get back at Buffy by getting his soul! And if he was able to feel guilt to that level where it made him get a soul, he should be held accountable for what he had done!

 

[The Arcane]

he was disgusted by what he had done and he wanted to get back at Buffy by getting his soul! And if he was able to feel guilt to that level where it made him get a soul, he should be held accountable for what he had done!

I don't think he really felt either disgusted or guilt, because they are aspects of having a human soul that vampires simply cannot call their own.

I think the incident made him confused and conflicted. Made him realise he was walking a line between one thing and another and that he needed to make a choice. Either to be the demon he once was or be the man he was pretending to be because he could no longer cope with being both. For whatever reason, he chose his humanity.

That doesn't change the fact that the night he attacked Buffy, he wasn't human, neither in form or in mind.

 

[Schillaci]

I'm pretty sure this subject has been discussed here before (in fact i'm almost certain) but it hasn't been raised as a seperate topic recently and with all the new blood arriving i thought it would be an interesting thread to start again with fresh opinions.

I guess I fall under that new blood category.

Personally, i have a hard time calling the events of that night "rape", or even "attempted rape", simply because of the person we are talking about. Spike, at that time, was a soulless vampire, basically incapable of being governed by the laws that our society has come to depend on. Rape is a human crime, commited by the intentional acts of a human being. Spike was a demon, acting on his primal instincts with little or no moral compass to guide him.

So, to Spike it was just his instinct kicking in? You have two remember there are two people involved with rape. The rapist, and the victim. Spike may be a demon but Buffy was human. To her it is attempted rape.

We would call the murder of one human by another a crime but in the world of Buffy we accept that vampires feed on human beings because we are food to them. They are not held accountable for their actions simply because they are not like we are. How is this example of a demon acting on it's basic instincts any different to that?

They are held accountable. That's what the slayer is for. 😉

I'm not going to dwell too much on Buffy's part in this because it confuses the issue, but her actions do play a part in that night too. Again, in the case of a human attacking another human then i would be the first to say that if the girl says no and the guy continues, then that is rape. No doubt, no questions. However in this one specific case she was saying no to a vampire. Not only that but she had just spent the last few months saying "no" to him only to a few seconds later be on top of him in bed. The fact is that, even in the real world, her confusing actions may be enough to get even a guilty human guy off, if he had a good enough lawyer. How was Spike, again without a soul to guide him, really able to tell the difference between the "no" that night and all the "no's" he had heard Buffy say before?

Totally agree. I'm of the persuasion that Buffy is equally as accountable that night as Spike.

Now, it's no secret that i'm a fan of Spike. He is my favourite character from the entire franchise in fact. Even so, i would not defend him in this matter if i truly thought that he was guilty of this accusation. Had this occured after he had his soul restored then i'd be the first to call it as the rape it would be. He would be accountable for his actions as a human being because he would have had a human soul.

Oh my god! You're a Spike fan? I would never have guessed...

The fact is though that i can't see how this one action that he carried out can be held in such detest when he had previously spent decades alongside Angelus, Dru and Darla, murdering, stealing, destroying and probably even raping (again, to use our terminology) other girls. I mean, don't for one second anyone try tell me that they don't think Angelus didn't take any woman he wanted over the years.

To all their victims it is rape.

The only difference is that we believed Spike was trying to be better than that now, because of his feelings for Buffy. That doesn't change the fact that he was still not capable of truly understanding the difference between right and wrong.

He does understand the difference, though. Otherwise, why was he so torn up by that night?

I, personally, don't see what happened that night as rape. I see it as the actions of a confused and soulless demon who had been receiving mixed messages from a girl who had previously had no problem jumping into the sack with the guy, no matter what she had already said. So is Spike really entirely to blame for what happened?

I like your argument. Don't agree with it, though. Spike may have been without soul, but he knew it was wrong on a basic level. The problem with Spike isn't that he couldn't differentiate between right and wrong, but that he couldn't keep his emotions in check. He wanted Buffy to love him, the only way he knew to make her happy was with his lurve stick.: party2:

Spike knew what he tried to do was wrong. He was just so mind ****ed by Buffy's games that he didn't know which way his head was facing. 😉

Was it wrong of him? Yes. Was it entirely his fault? Hellz no. Buffy had taken from Spike what she wanted for the past couple of months. Toyed with his feelings. Buffy created the situation. Spike was victim to it. I have sympathy for both of them.

I love the "attempted rape", in the context of their relationship. I love that the games Buffy played had consequences that came back and bit her in the ass. I also love that "attempted rape" was the catalyst for Spike's to seek redemption. Every aspect of Spuffy was superb, the "attempted rape", just another part of their complicated relationship.

 

[The Arcane]

1) To all their victims it is rape.


2) He does understand the difference, though. Otherwise, why was he so torn up by that night?

I like your argument. Don't agree with it, though. Spike may have been without soul, but he knew it was wrong on a basic level. The problem with Spike isn't that he couldn't differentiate between right and wrong, but that he couldn't keep his emotions in check. He wanted Buffy to love him, the only way he knew to make her happy was with his lurve stick.: party2:

Spike knew what he tried to do was wrong. He was just so mind ****ed by Buffy's games that he didn't know which way his head was facing. 😉

Was it wrong of him? Yes. Was it entirely his fault? Hellz no. Buffy had taken from Spike what she wanted for the past couple of months. Toyed with his feelings. Buffy created the situation. Spike was victim to it. I have sympathy for both of them.

I love the "attempted rape", in the context of their relationship. I love that the games Buffy played had consequences that came back and bit her in the ass. I also love that "attempted rape" was the catalyst for Spike's to seek redemption. Every aspect of Spuffy was superb, the "attempted rape", just another part of their complicated relationship.

1) But to the vampire, it isn't rape. It's simply taking what it wants. It has no regard for a set of laws created by a species that it deems as food at best and as such cannot be held accountable under the laws of our world. You are correct that the human victim would view it as rape but, even in the case of mentally incapable people in the real world, if the attacker is not of a sane state of mind to truly understand that what they are doing is a crime then they will be found not guilty on grounds of insanity, or some similar legal loophole. How could a vampire be prosecuted as a rapist when they have no human soul to make them feel that they are doing wrong. Leading me to ...

2) All vampires "understand" that they are doing wrong in the most technical sense. They are evil and doing wrong is what they are all about. However understanding and caring are totally different things. They have no capacity for guilt and, as i said, no regard for what we call law. They are, quite simply, not human and so cannot be judged by human standards. Something that any crime, rape included, would require.

Other than that, i pretty much agree with you. I would never say that i thought Buffy deserved what happened to her that night anymore than Spike deserves to be blamed entirely either, but all the events that led to what happened that night have to be considered, just as much as the natures of the two people involved, if you are to judge the matter fairly.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

Hmmm this one is tough, as i agree with The Watcher on alot of his comments, but disagree on some too.

Firstof all, we are unsure what the 'soul' actually controls.
We assume, that a soulless beast, cannot love, hate, feel guilt, feel fear but then what does it feel.
An argument could be, that any emotion that is within the vampire, is a residual of the human form, and that every act is pure instinct.
I don't personally buy into that one.
I believe that a Vampire, has the capacity to experience emotion, and if it can feel one, then the entire range is open to it. Thus, guilt is accessible.
We also have commentary from Whedon(can't remember source) that Spike was an abnormal Vampire, he was a mutation, maybe even the beginnings of a new evolutionary curve-survival of the fittest and all(the evolutionary part isnt Whedon).
Again, if this is the case and this abnormality is infact his emotional issues, such as the compassion he shows during Joyces death, his sometimes altruistic acts that have no bearing on his desires of Buffy, then surley, guilt is accessible again.
Now, for the 'attempted rape' of Buffy.
As a sentient being, Spike, to me, has the ability of knowing right from wrong, and can even differentiate this in his Vampiric nature, to understand, and acknowledge that the raping of a human is wrong.
Feeding off a human is one thing, as its food, but sexual intercourse between a Vampire and Human, in your terms Watcher, is inter-species, bestial, and that on a basic level is wrong to every animal, being, thus in this case, Spikes forcing himself on Buffy, is wrong because its not instinct, its something he is willing himself to to do.
When we get to that point, it becomes obvious, Spike is wrong.

As for the incident its self, its hard to say that Buffy has some blame, simply because she said no.
Granted on previous times, she had said 'no' and then given in, BUT she made her choice known, and this time, she never relented.

Factis, if in a night club, you 'get off' with someone, and enjoy it, but afterwards you say no, and they proceed, its still rape.
OR, in a relationship of a sexual nature, no matter how long its been going on, if one time you say no, and it proceeds, its rape.

Buffy made her feelings clear,and Spike, disregarded them, for his own gratification, and to prove he had power over her(which is the driving force of rape), Spikes reaction when the incident came to a head, showed his understanding of what he did, and why it was wrong, and if he is able to do that, then he is accountable.

 

[The Arcane]

Firstof all, we are unsure what the 'soul' actually controls.
We assume, that a soulless beast, cannot love, hate, feel guilt, feel fear but then what does it feel.
An argument could be, that any emotion that is within the vampire, is a residual of the human form, and that every act is pure instinct.
I don't personally buy into that one.
I believe that a Vampire, has the capacity to experience emotion, and if it can feel one, then the entire range is open to it. Thus, guilt is accessible.

But going down that route basically dissolves the entire debate between what makes a human and what makes a vampire. It's not enough to feel an emotion, you have to be able to put in into context of what you feel is right and wrong.

It's obvious that all vampires experience emotion. Anger, fear, happiness, hatred, all these things are common place in how vampires are seen on Buffy and Angel. They absolutely experience emotion. However, dogs, cats, and most other semi-intelligent species also experience emotion of sorts. Your cat can be happy, sad, angry, scared and so on ... but feel guilty? Not in any real sense. Certainly not in human terms.

Guilt is one of the higher emotions that builds upon the basic primal feelings we have had since we were living up in the trees. Guilt requires both an understanding of right and wrong and a regard for the rules of society. Vampires emotions are primal, guilt is not amongst them.

We also have commentary from Whedon(can't remember source) that Spike was an abnormal Vampire, he was a mutation, maybe even the beginnings of a new evolutionary curve-survival of the fittest and all(the evolutionary part isnt Whedon).
Again, if this is the case and this abnormality is infact his emotional issues, such as the compassion he shows during Joyces death, his sometimes altruistic acts that have no bearing on his desires of Buffy, then surley, guilt is accessible again.

Not so much a mutation as an abberation. Spike was more than your average vampire and was certainly more in touch with his human roots than the average vampire. He was capable of acts of compassion that most vamps would not understand. However, we still don't know where that came from. Was it the chip forcing his demonic self to civilise and grow attached to the people around him? Was it always there, just waiting to get out? We may never know. All we can say for a fact is that, until the end of season six Spike did not possess a soul, and in the slayerverse that is the key to humanity. Otherwise Angel and Angelus would not be so far removed from one another. The differences between Soulless Spike and Souled Spike may be more subtle but that doesn't mean they weren't there.

A demon attacked Buffy that night, regardless of what it might have understood about it's actions, it was doing what came naturally to it.

Now, for the 'attempted rape' of Buffy.
As a sentient being, Spike, to me, has the ability of knowing right from wrong, and can even differentiate this in his Vampiric nature, to understand, and acknowledge that the raping of a human is wrong.
Feeding off a human is one thing, as its food, but sexual intercourse between a Vampire and Human, in your terms Watcher, is inter-species, bestial, and that on a basic level is wrong to every animal, being, thus in this case, Spikes forcing himself on Buffy, is wrong because its not instinct, its something he is willing himself to to do.
When we get to that point, it becomes obvious, Spike is wrong.

Simply being sentient is not enough to make Spike culpable for this suggested crime. As i've already put forward, all vampires are sentient and all understand right and wrong. They choose to do wrong because they are evil and that is what comes naturally to them. That is what they are. It's not about understanding, it's about having the ability to really care. A vampire simply cannot care, it's not within it to do so.

As far as the sexual intercourse between species part of your argument, i'm going to leave that well alone because if we start going down that route then we have to question much of what Buffy herself chose to do when she was with Spike earlier in the season. Yes, technically we are talking two different species having sex but as that is no different to say a human and a Vulcan mating on Trek, then we can't really use that for this discussion.

As for the incident its self, its hard to say that Buffy has some blame, simply because she said no.
Granted on previous times, she had said 'no' and then given in, BUT she made her choice known, and this time, she never relented.

Don't forget, the very first time she "gave in" was after a prolonged fight which pretty much destroyed a house in the process. Right before they had sex for the first time Buffy and Spike practically beat the crap out of each other. Now, on this occasion, Spike is suddenly supposed to know that Buffy really won't change her mind again if he gets a little rough? As i recall, what she did to him that first time was a hell of a lot more violent than what he did to her in the bathroom.

Fact is, if in a night club, you 'get off' with someone, and enjoy it, but afterwards you say no, and they proceed, its still rape.
OR, in a relationship of a sexual nature, no matter how long its been going on, if one time you say no, and it proceeds, its rape.

Buffy made her feelings clear,and Spike, disregarded them, for his own gratification, and to prove he had power over her(which is the driving force of rape), Spikes reaction when the incident came to a head, showed his understanding of what he did, and why it was wrong, and if he is able to do that, then he is accountable.

No, those facts you stated are only true for us humans, not for vampires. I have to stress once again that vampires are not bound by our laws and rules.

Buffy may have tried to make her feelings clear but after the mess of a relationship that they had developed over the previous months there was no way that anyone can expect a vampire to take onboard the "no means no" rule that we live by.

Finally, it is not fair to use his later emotional conflict to judge what he did. The confusion he felt later on was created by the actions he carried out. There is no saying that, prior to the shock of what he found himself doing to Buffy, that he was even able to feel that conflict within himself. As i've said, i believe that it was attacking Buffy that finally awoke whatever residual humanity lay dormant in Spike. Enough to prompt him to have his soul restored.

 

[doppelgänger2]

No offense guys, but this thread is seriously disturbing. For more than one reason.
First of all; I never saw the storyline itself to be "wrong". Because these types of things happen everyday, every minute and Joss is basically just sheding some light on it.
What does bother me is how people/(spike)fans defend and justify what Spike did.
Saying "rape is wrong but..." is for me justifying the actions of one of the male species taking control and (trying to) abuse one of the female species sexually. And futher, trying to justify his actions with the argument that Vampires cannot feel any gulit is to me also very blasè. There are humans that can be compared to what is calimed about Vampires who when killing and/or abusing someone sexually, they feel close to no guilt at all. On the contrary; they feel utter satisfaction.
True that what happened in this case should rather be called "attemted rape", but that doesn't make his action any less horrible.

Don't forget, the very first time she "gave in" was after a prolonged fight which pretty much destroyed a house in the process. Right before they had sex for the first time Buffy and Spike practically beat the crap out of each other. Now, on this occasion, Spike is suddenly supposed to know that Buffy really won't change her mind again if he gets a little rough? As i recall, what she did to him that first time was a hell of a lot more violent than what he did to her in the bathroom.

This pretty much pisses me off. Yes; Buffy and Spike did hit it off in a strange and very violent way. Buffy might have said no but given in anyway, but as Dia DeLa Muerte mentioned, she made it very clear in her actions that she had changed her mind. And it was her choice all the way.
Had she done the same thing in the bathroom, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Buffy showed very clearly that she did not want to get down and dirty with Spike at the moment. She clearly felt violated, and no matter if Spike hadn't layed a hand on Buffy, If Buffy feels violted that's what happened. Does it even matter what Spike felt?

Having been in Buffy's situation more than once (not in that exact context but you know what I mean), it really bothers me that people are seriously justifying Spike and putting "some" of the blame on Buffy.
And re: Buffy forgiving Spike, it's not exactly uncomon for women to forgive their boyfriends/dates/husbands after being raped by them. That doesn't make the rapists actions any milder.

Geeeze...

 

[eponinethen]

I agree with The Watcher, this is pretty much what I have been trying to say (in very vew words though) every time this subject is brought up in a thread about something else.
Yes, what Spike did was wrong. But vampires are known to do stuff that are considered wrong, aren't they? We don't blame Spike or Angel for all the people they killed as demons. It's not right of them, not in any way, but that's the way vampires work (according to Buffyverse).

When it comes to Buffy.. Yeah, that must have been very horrible for her. I wouldn't blame Buffy if she never forgave or trusted Spike after this, definitely not! For her it was attempted rape, no doubt about it.. But this thread is about Spike isn't it? If we were discussing what Buffy experienced, then she would have experienced "attempted rape".. But if we're discussing what Spike did.. he did try to rape Buffy but I don't think that changes anything about him. It was very wrong, he felt bad for it efter it happened, but you can't really blame him, especially not the "person" he is in s7..

To me it is kind of simple:
It was attempted rape, and it was wrong, and definitely horrible for Buffy.
But we can't really blame Spike, no matter how crazy that might seem, because he is a vampire. Yes vampires take satisfaction from doing these things, that's what being a vampire is about, and that is proof enough that we can't judge them the same way as humans.
This is not a question about whether or not it can be "ok" to rape someone, I highly doubt that anyone would say that it could, it's a question about how we can judge demons.. Rape can never be justified, obviously not.. Vampires can also never be judges the same way as human beings. Which means we are left with a dilemma in the same way as when a vampire kills a human – it's horrible and oh so wrong in our way of thinking and for the human, but to the vampires it's just "normal" behaviour...

 

[The Arcane]

No offense guys, but this thread is seriously disturbing. For more than one reason.
First of all; I never saw the storyline itself to be "wrong". Because these types of things happen everyday, every minute and Joss is basically just sheding some light on it.
What does bother me is how people/(spike)fans defend and justify what Spike did.

Firstly, as i said before, i'm not defending Spike as a fan. I'm defending him as an objective observer of the being that he was. A vampire.

Saying "rape is wrong but..." is for me justifying the actions of one of the male species taking control and (trying to) abuse one of the female species sexually. And futher, trying to justify his actions with the argument that Vampires cannot feel any gulit is to me also very blasè. There are humans that can be compared to what is calimed about Vampires who when killing and/or abusing someone sexually, they feel close to no guilt at all. On the contrary; they feel utter satisfaction.

But i'm not saying "rape is wrong but...", i'm saying that this wasn't rape at all. I'm saying that, in this one, specific case, the attacker cannot be held responsible in the same way that a man could, simply because Spike was not a man. I'm not trying to justify what he did. His attacking Buffy was wrong, in and of itself. It simply cannot be classed as rape though.

Your argument that there are human beings that can be compared to vampires is flawed. Regardless of how they react when they attack and rape women these humans are still human. They may feel no guilt but they are capable of doing so. They have a human soul. Spike did not. The fact that, as you said, they feel satisfaction speaks to an illness of mind on their parts. Spike was not doing what he did to Buffy that night to gain any satisfaction from attacking her. He believed that if he pushed Buffy she would respond, as she always had eventually in the past. For a being that could use no emotional compass to guide his actions, that would have been all he understood.

At the end of the day, Spike's actions, whether you see them as right or wrong, were not rape. They were misguided and i certainly don't condone them, but he wasn't trying to rape her. If he was then he would simply of continued to push himself onto her. Once he saw the terror on Buffy's face, something clicked inside him (the epiphany i mentioned earlier that led to him regaining his soul) and he stopped and left. He didn't continue to attack her once he realised that she truly did not want him, that this wasn't just their normal violent style of foreplay. He stopped and left. Would a rapist do that?

This pretty much pisses me off ...

Having been in Buffy's situation more than once (not in that exact context but you know what I mean), it really bothers me that people are seriously justifying Spike and putting "some" of the blame on Buffy.

Geeeze...

I do apologise for pissing you off, especially if you have experienced this type of situation yourself. Understand that if this was a discussion about Xander, Riley, Parker, Wesley or any of the other male characters doing something similar then i would never defend their actions. Hell, i would even consider Angel culpable, assuming we were talking about him "with soul". Faith is my second favourite character on either show and yet i still call what she did to Xander (the night she almost killed him) a crime. She had a soul, she understood human law, she was wrong.

Nobody would ever (i hope) seek to put any "blame" on Buffy if she had been attacked by any of the other guys on the show. I'm not blaming her for that night anyway. I'm saying that, given the fact Spike was not able to put "no means no" into any real context and that getting physical with her before had been enough to make her want to have sex with him then he had no way of knowing that it wouldn't lead to the same thing that night.

Once he realised she was truly terrified, he stopped and left. That fact alone should show that he had no intention of raping her.

 

[eponinethen]

Hm, as I see it it was rape (or would've been if he had been able to go through with it that is). But that is not the point. To discuss this you have to seperate the two things: What happened to Buffy and what Spike did and why.

No matter how hard she had tried not to, Buffy had at this point started to see Spike as a man, so had he himself, but the truth is he wasn't – and this scene proves that. It is possible that Spike would have been able to do something like this even with a soul, but then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

To answer the question if you can blame Spike for his actions, we cannot consider Buffy's feelings, or what happened to her – that is irrelevant is this discussion. I understand people who hate Spike for what he did, but that doesn't change why he did it, or the fact that he wasn't human when he did it.

To me the question isn't if it was rape or not, because to Buffy it is, she would have been raped, but the question is whether or not Spike was a "man" or should be judged like one.. And I say he shouldn't. I say he was a vampire, a very confused and troubled one, but no less a vampire.. Without a soul, still driven by the demon inside him. (Which doesn't make the thing that happened more ok, in a way it makes it worse.. But it does explain things, and it does make the situation a lot different..)

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Once he realised she was truly terrified, he stopped and left. That fact alone should show that he had no intention of raping her.

No no no, That's so not what happened Buffy Kicked him away and he then saw what he was attempting, it was Buffy's kick that made him cop on not Spikes moral senses!
And read the script from the scene:

He moves forward, puts his hands on her waist, pulls her toward him. She resists.

BUFFY: No....
SPIKE: You love me.
BUFFY: Ow, no, stop it.

They struggle, Spike trying to kiss and grope Buffy, Buffy trying to push him away. Sound of fabric ripping. Spike's hand is inside Buffy's robe.

BUFFY: Spike, no - ow - what are you do-

She loses her balance and falls backward toward the tub. Her hand grabs the shower curtain for balance, but it rips off the shower rod and Buffy falls down, hitting her back against the side of the tub.

BUFFY: (yelling) Ow!

She falls to the floor beside the tub, groaning in pain. Spike gets on top of her, holding her down. He grabs her face and tries to kiss her as she continues trying to fight him off.

SPIKE: Let it go. Let yourself love me.

He continues saying similar things as Buffy continues saying "no" and "stop" and "ow." Spike pulls at her clothing.

Buffy gets onto her stomach and tries to pull herself toward the door, but Spike is on top of her, holding her down, pulling her arms away from the door as she continues yelling and protesting.

Close on Spike wearing a determined and wild expression.
Open on the same scene, overhead shot of Spike straddling Buffy on the bathroom floor. Buffy continues struggling.

BUFFY: (yelling) No, stop it!
SPIKE: I know you felt it ... when I was inside you...

Close on his hands trying to open her robe. Sound of fabric ripping.

Buffy breaks partly free and starts crawling toward the door again. Spike grabs her ankle and pulls her back toward him, flips her over, pins her hands to the floor.

BUFFY: No, ow, ow! (sobbing) Please, please, Spike, please...
SPIKE: You'll feel it again, Buffy...
BUFFY: Please don't do this...
SPIKE: I'm gonna make you feel it.

He rips the front of her robe open. Buffy screams and struggles against him as he tries to get her robe off.

BUFFY: Stop!!!

She gives him one last shove with her Slayer-strength and Spike goes flying backward, crashing into the sink and the wall. Buffy gets to her feet, holding her robe closed with one hand. It's torn so that one of her shoulders is exposed.

Spike gets up, panting and staring at her.

BUFFY Ask me again why I could never love you.

Spike looks like he's just realizing what he was doing.

SPIKE: Buffy, my god, I didn't-
BUFFY: (angrily) Because I stopped you. (quieter) Something I should have done a long time ago.

A tear runs down Buffy's face. Spike stares at her looking horrified.

It explains very clearly that it was attempted rape, and that Spike only stopped after he was hit!

And as for the whole Open on the same scene, overhead shot of Spike straddling Buffy on the bathroom floor. Buffy continues struggling.

BUFFY: (yelling) No, stop it!
SPIKE: I know you felt it ... when I was inside you...

Close on his hands trying to open her robe. Sound of fabric ripping.

Buffy breaks partly free and starts crawling toward the door again. Spike grabs her ankle and pulls her back toward him, flips her over, pins her hands to the floor.

BUFFY: No, ow, ow! (sobbing) Please, please, Spike, please...
SPIKE: You'll feel it again, Buffy...
BUFFY: Please don't do this...
SPIKE: I'm gonna make you feel it.

He rips the front of her robe open. Buffy screams and struggles against him as he tries to get her robe off.

BUFFY: Stop!!!

She gives him one last shove with her Slayer-strength and Spike goes flying backward, crashing into the sink and the wall. Buffy gets to her feet, holding her robe closed with one hand. It's torn so that one of her shoulders is exposed.

Spike gets up, panting and staring at her.

BUFFY Ask me again why I could never love you.

Spike looks like he's just realizing what he was doing.

SPIKE: Buffy, my god, I didn't-
BUFFY: (angrily) Because I stopped you. (quieter) Something I should have done a long time ago.

A tear runs down Buffy's face. Spike stares at her looking horrified.[/QUOTE]

It explains very clearly that it was attempted rape and that Spike only stopped because Buffy kicked him!
And I really don't think you can justify his actions because he was a vampire yes the vampires act on their Primal instinct, but they also do that to feed and we do hold them accountable for that, that's why there is a slayer! So if vampires don't get blamed for raping women then they should also not be blamed for feeding and Buffy should stop slaying them!!

 

[eponinethen]

It explains very clearly that it was attempted rape and that Spike only stopped because Buffy kicked him!
And I really don't think you can justify his actions because he was a vampire yes the vampires act on their Primal instinct, but they also do that to feed and we do hold them accountable for that, that’s why there is a slayer! So if vampires don't get blamed for raping women then they should also not be blamed for feeding and Buffy should stop slaying them!!

I agree that Buffy had to stop Spike. But I also agree with The Watcher that once she did so, Spike realized she really meant it, she really didn't want him, and he realized how his mind/demon was playing tricks on him and then he wanted to become a better man (with a soul) who wouldn't do that and so on..

But what you say about vampires.. I don't blame each vampire personally for feeding on humans, they do that because they are vampires. And of course Buffy should kill them for that. I wouldn't have blamed Buffy if she had killed Spike, all I'm saying is that you can't judge him like a human. Just like "regular" vampired kill humans because they are vampires, Spike probably wouldn't have tried to rape Buffy hadn't he been a vampire. That makes it not personally his fault, but the demon-inside-him's fault. Which pretty much means that in s7, when Spike is no longer a soul-less demon, you can no longer blame him for what he did as a vampire. Sort of like how you can't really blame Angel for what Angelus did.
I get that the whole Spike thing is a bit different since he started becoming "good" before he got a soul, but he was still without a soul, and still controlled by the demon inside him.

 

[The Arcane]

Sorry, BEG, but nothing you have posted there even slightly changes my point. I know this episode very well having seen it countless times and i'm very aware of the specifics of the script, having discussed this before.

Sure, Buffy kicking him away gave him pause for thought and the chance to see what she was really feeling. To see the terror and disgust in her eyes. But that was the epiphany i have stated.

Now, once he saw that Buffy was not going to come around this time, did he continue? Once he realised that Buffy was not going to concede, did he jump on her again, regardless of what she wanted?

No, he didn't. He left. A rapist would not stop, they would not care to stop. They would have no interest in how they got to have sex as long as they got it. Spike stopped when he knew Buffy would not change her mind.

Finally, Spike should be held accountable for what he did that night, same as every other thing he did. He should be held accountable for hurting Buffy but he should not be held accountable for rape. That involves intent to violate another human against their will. Spike truly believed Buffy wanted him. He was wrong and when he realised this he stopped and left. That is not the act of a rapist.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

Vampire/Human sex is at the center...if you can call the Vampire killing a human as simply feeding you are differentiating between them as a species, so you HAVE to differentiate the act of sex in the same way.
The baser urge of sex is procreation, hence inter-species is fundementally wrong to the animal kingdom.

Had Spike tried to feed off Buffy, THATS in the vampires nature, but to attempt rape, which is what he did, its how the scene is written, its what was done, you have to be willing to accept thats what Spike did.
Had Joss been trying to prove it the Vampire was going after Buffy, he woud have tried to bite her, but its the 'residual' humanity within him that goes for the rape.

Is he confused, no doubt, but he still attempted to rape Buffy.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

No, he didn't. He left. A rapist would not stop, they would not care to stop. They would have no interest in how they got to have sex as long as they got it. Spike stopped when he knew Buffy would not change her mind.

Buffy successfully threw Spike off, in any case, if the woman showed greater physical presence the man would think twice. This is the time that gave Spike time to have is Epiphany...he didnt have it becauseBuffy fought him off,he had because he saw that if he carried on, Buffy could have bested him.

Finally, Spike should be held accountable for what he did that night, same as every other thing he did. He should be held accountable for hurting Buffy but he should not be held accountable for rape. That involves intent to violate another human against their will. Spike truly believed Buffy wanted him. He was wrong and when he realised this he stopped and left. That is not the act of a rapist.

Again this is one of the worser arguments.
MOST rapes are because the man 'truly believed' the woman wanted it..........

 

[The Arcane]

Vampire/Human sex is at the center...if you can call the Vampire killing a human as simply feeding you are differentiating between them as a species, so you HAVE to differentiate the act of sex in the same way.
The baser urge of sex is procreation, hence inter-species is fundementally wrong to the animal kingdom.

Had Spike tried to feed off Buffy, THATS in the vampires nature, but to attempt rape, which is what he did, its how the scene is written, its what was done, you have to be willing to accept thats what Spike did.
Had Joss been trying to prove it the Vampire was going after Buffy, he woud have tried to bite her, but its the 'residual' humanity within him that goes for the rape.

Is he confused, no doubt, but he still attempted to rape Buffy.

I'm sorry but i'm a little lost as to the point you are trying to make. You can't really put forward that Spike is a different species and then use that to judge him by the laws of our species, which don't apply to him anyway.

Vampires are a different species by nature. What exists inside is very different to human. But physically they are the same as when they were still alive. Just because they cannot (usually) have children does not change that they have all the right parts. Vampires still have the sexual urges they had as human beings, the difference is in how they feel about the person they have sex with.

If we are going to go this route then you have to assume Buffy and Angel were wrong to have sex together (he was a vampire too, after all) and that Buffy was wrong to have sex with Spike in the first place. This takes us into a whole other debate.

Again, all that still doesn't alter the main point of the argument, that Spike did not set out to rape Buffy simply because of the nature of what he was inside.