Spike's attempted rape

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Well to me I get what your saying but I see Spike as not being innocent in any part of it what so ever since Buffy told him lots of times that she was basically just useing him and didnt have feelings for him and the fact that he always tried to make her give into him one way or another even if it meant making her feel isolated from her friends.
 
I agree with you Primal Slayer. It was technically his descision to do that to Buffy... Buffy used him, he did things to her back, but for different reasons. No one is innocent. I'm confusing myself thinking about this...
 
Hello, "evil, soulless thing", no innocence! Seriously, though, Buffy's actions were out in the open...Spike chose to play along. His evilness just kicked in when the screwing stopped. I know this is a tv show and all, but would you say the same thing if the same situation happened to your friend? Or you? Or your Mom? Sorry, maybe I'm a bit to much of a tightass, but there is no way any woman "asks" for a rape, even in a tv show. And any guy that does the deed is indeed an evil, soulless thing.
 
He had no soul, but he could still *feel.* He is the bad guy because he raped her. She is the bad guy because she used him. They're both victims and bad guys in different situations. My question is, which one's worse?
 
This is just probably the Spike hater of Season6 in me when to me Spike was the worse one and im not thinking of the rape, he went from trying to be all sinscere(SP) and helpy to overly obessed after him and Buffy kissed, he kept on persuing her while she tried to fight him off and then she finally gave into him and when she tried he possiably did the worse thing with making her feel even deader inside. Trying to isolate her from her friends just to join him in the darkness.
 
I know it wasnt right for her to use him but atleast she didnt try to play all these little mind games with him, she made it well known that she did not have lovey dovey feelings for him and that she was useing him. Spike knew that Buffy wasnt feeling good/brought back right and to me he started to use that to his advantage.

We know that Buffy didnt feel ok with what she was doing with Spike when she broke down and started to ask Tara all of those questions.
BUFFY: I didn't come back wrong?
TARA: No, you're the same Buffy. (lightly) With a deep tropical cellular tan.
BUFFY: You must have missed something. Will you check again?
TARA: (concerned) Buffy, I-I promise, there's nothing wrong with you.
BUFFY: There has to be! This just can't be me, it isn't me. (starting to cry) Why do I feel like this? Why do I let Spike do those things to me?
TARA: You mean hit you.

Buffy meets Tara's eyes, but only for a moment, then looks away. Tara frowns as she begins to get it.

TARA: Oh.

Longer shot of the two of them. Tara rubs her knees nervously.

TARA: Oh, huh. Really.
BUFFY: He's everything I hate. He's everything that ... I'm supposed to be against. But the only time that I ever feel anything is when ... Don't tell anyone, please.
TARA: I won't.
BUFFY: (crying) The way they would look at me ... I just couldn't...
TARA: I won't tell anyone. I wouldn't do that.
BUFFY: (whispers) Why can't I stop? Why do I keep letting him in?
TARA: (concerned) Do you love him?

Buffy just stares at her tearfully.

TARA: I-It's okay if you do. He's done a lot of good, and, and he does love you. A-and Buffy, it's okay if you don't. You're going through a really hard time, and you're...
BUFFY: (still tearful) What? Using him? What's okay about that?
TARA: It's not that simple.
BUFFY: It is! It's wrong. I'm wrong. Tell me that I'm wrong, please...

Buffy starts to cry for real now.

BUFFY: Please don't forgive me, please... (sobbing) Please don't...

She slides off the table onto the floor, kneeling, putting her head in Tara's lap. Tara looks uncertain, puts her hands comfortingly on Buffy's head.

BUFFY: (sobbing, muffled) Please don't forgive me...

Tara strokes her hair gently as she continues crying.
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BUFFY: And I'm not here to bust your chops about your stupid scheme, either. That's just you. I should have remembered.
SPIKE: So this is worse then, is it, this is you telling me-
BUFFY: It's over.
SPIKE: (smiles, moves closer to her) I've memorized this tune, luv. Think I have the sheet music. Doesn't change what you want.
BUFFY: I know that. (pauses) I do want you. (Spike looking surprised) Being with you ... makes things ... simpler. For a little while.
SPIKE: I don't call five hours straight a little while.
BUFFY: I'm using you.

He stares at her.

BUFFY: I can't love you. I'm just ... being weak, and selfish...
SPIKE: (moves even closer) Really not complaining here.
BUFFY: ...and it's killing me.

Spike frowns.

BUFFY: I have to be strong about this.

He continues staring at her.

BUFFY: I'm sorry ... William.

She turns and walks off, leaving Spike looking stricken.

Cut to above. Buffy walks out of the crypt into sunlight.
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Buffy made it pretty clear when she said, "I'm using you, and it's killing me". She laid it on the line when she said that, and she broke it off. Spike simply couldn't take no for an answer. It doesn't matter what Buffy had done in the past, she wanted an end. I agree she was less that scrupulous when she was with Spike, but he knew the score when they started, and he also knew what Buffy's character was really like. He knew she would eventually return to "kind of righteous (sp)" and that his time with her was limited to how long it took her to snap out of it. All the way through S5 he was moaning about how B would never be with him. He must have known that once she was that it wouldn't last. It's all about Spike...he's 100% at fault.
 
He is guilty of that and I have almost no sympathy for him, but I know that he still loves her with all of his unbeating heart. He wouldn't do it now and I don't quite understand why he would do it with an intention to hurt then...
 
He didn't go there with the intention of hurting Buffy. He went out of his mind. Where people will argue is that some don't understand his character or what it's like to be where he was mentally. I'm not defending what he did in any way. In fact I think it was horrible. He deserved to suffer. But he did. And he has been trying to make up for it ever since. He put himself through hell and yet still there are people that hold it against him. That I can understand. What I dodn't get is people that are so openly forgiving to all these other characters for the horrors that they commit and yet it seems Spike is screwed for this reguardless...I don't know...I think if ya hate Spike ya hate him...but this isn't the thing to hide behind all the time. Buffy forgave him, he fought for his soul and stood by her when no one else would. That's good enough for me...

Spike on his soul:
"To be the kind of man who never...to be the kind of man. And she shall look upon him with forgiveness and everybody will forgive and love. And he will be loved." *lays across the cross*

Redemption...he could have just killed her...or kept attacking...gone down hill completely...but he chose the high road. And that's something. More than most any other "monster" would do. Just IMO...sorry...carry on...
 
Spike didn't have a soul when he did that.If Angelus would have been the one who tried to rape her everyone would be like ''yay!,angelus,evil,cool''
 
Well I dont know who you are talking about but I certainly would not be cheering. Rape is a serious issue and I do not think of anyone who would be thinking differently if it were Angelus and noone would be cheering for him.
 
Originally posted by Primal Slayer
Well I dont know who you are talking about but I certainly would not be cheering. Rape is a serious issue and I do not think of anyone who would be thinking differently if it were Angelus and noone would be cheering for him.
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I agree with that. I don't think rape can ever be "good." I would very much hate Angelus if he ever did try to rape Buffy. It's not cool at all.
 
Ooh...your're all right--this is a touchy issue. But here are some real stats. 3 out of five females--according to stats provided by Oprah have had a close encounter or have actually been raped. I personally know of two different friends of mine who have been raped. One by a 'stranger' and the other one by who she thought was her 'friend'.

O.K. let that sink in--then add, according to a psychology class i took in college about 60% of college aged guys asked in a blind poll--if you could rape a girl and get away with it would you do it? About 60% said: Yes.

Now that's honest and I give credit for that but it's also true. Ask a guy if at a certain time of his life if he would say 'anything' to get a girl to have sex--I bet THAT figure is about 90%.

And that's definitely a form of using someone--blind siding someone wiithout enough information of intention--well...that's rape.

Can you see where I'm going?

It's so easy to class this as evil and it is, trynnay over the helpless is evil by definition. But this is also an evil perpetuated by the guy sitting right next to you.

The brilliance of this scene and this ep--is that Spike did love her--very dearly, given the commitment of the JM performance that is not in doubt. So one of the real untalked about 'lessons' of this scene--is about the state of the juvanile mind. Of going from being a child. a boy--whose life is all about survivial of self and the damage a boy can do before their worldview can expand beyond selfish desire to include the other person. Our society doesn't have an initiation cermony for juviniles to progess more quickly to 'manhood'. And as a result we have boys in mens bodies for a very long time. A very dangerous situation.

What Spike did and why is what a lot of guys do and why. NOT excusing it but--understanding what is really going on in a lot of these cases is very important. A lot of these guys are so caught up in what they need--and held second to nothing--they really don't see it as rape--even if the girl is screaming 'no' Bizzare but true.

Thats why Spike's journey is so incredibly important for everyone. It shows all the trips and falls and successes and along with the forgiving grace from Buffy (She KNOWS the part she played in their abusive realtionship, she KNOWS he loves her and would bring her sister to his care just what? 6 hours later)

She tells Xander Spike would never hurt Dawn--she knows that the attack upon her. was singular and a symptom of Spike breaking loose from being a juvinle. She knows it is idyoschrantic to that particular moment. That's why 7 is so imprtant--by the time the conditioniong is broken we see Spike, in charge of himself, we see him solid, a man at last and calm. Even while fighting Wood--he is calm, not reveling in the emotional display of conquest. God that was beautiful to see.

And that.

is why regressing Spike so he can fit into Angels world is a storytelling crime.

Note the end of Lord of the Rings. The Hobbits have all gone so far and changed so much they can and will never 'go back' to being what they were.

To try to get 'the old Spike back, is...againest metephysical law of cause and effect. Once an element goes through the fire (in his case literally) It can never 'go back' to the physical properties and molecualr structure. Once he, himself experianced that level of soul purity why would he not want more of that?

Alright, whatever.
But man, 7 was magnificent in letting Spike find and explore humilty and calm in battle. Which later became emotional calm after getting destroyed by seeing Buffy kiss Angel. HE STAYED CALM. He worked it out on a punching bag. This is what men do. That part of the finale worked for me.

To kill without anger is the samuri way. (but don't consider that to be an endorsement to see Tom Cruise. Bleaach!)
 
You're very right. I don't see Spike in AtS S5 as going back to the old Spike. He may be loving and calm when he's with Buffy, but he still feels the need to not be so soft and open. He has grown a lot, but he's still being the bad boy and what lies underneath is the William from the "Fool for Love" and "LMPTM" flashbacks.

On-topic: Do you think Spike was in an insane state of mind when he raped her or was he doing it intentionally?
 
Originally posted by slayerangel
On-topic: Do you think Spike was in an insane state of mind when he raped her or was he doing it intentionally?
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I think he was in an insane state of mind when he tried to rape her. Just the way he was talking you could tell somewhat since he never really talked like that before. But the thing is( a lot of people will disagree with me) that after he left the house he was even more pissed off and I still do not think that his orignal intentions when he did his little travel was to get his soul back, I think he truly wanted to get revenge on Buffy but later on probably starting to think about decided to get his soul back even though another part of me thinks he did not even go there at all to get the soul back.
 
Slayerangel:

Sorry if I seemed abrupt, I'm at work and duty called...

I don't think we can give any leeway for state of mind. I know, I know, the legal system does, but I don't think he was crazy in any sense...just evil. The gravy train was being derailed and he was pissed about it. Pissed people tend to act unpredictably, and often that unpredictability is mistaken for insanity...a ploy readily used in our legal system BTW.

Maybe I sound a bit strident because, as stated earlier in this thread, I'm a guy, and I find myself telling some gals that Buffy said "No", and that should have been that...and some of 'em disagree with me!!! Weird...

Primal Slayer:

That was my original impression when Spike roared off on the bike too, and it certainly makes more sense and a better story, doesn't it?
 
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