Spike's intentions re. his soul: season 7

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inash

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Hello, all:

I am new to this community. I'm an adult female who has been a hardcore Buffy fan since 2000. There isn't a season of the series that I don't love, and I've watched them all multiple times. But there was one detail I need help understanding, and I hope someone here can clarify for me.

At the end of Season 6, Spike goes abroad to find a demon who will restore Spike to his previous, pre-chip self. As he says it, Spike seems to want to be violent again. But the demon plays what seems to be a trick on Spike: instead of restoring his violence, the demon restores Spike's *soul*. Which kind of has the opposite effect; it makes him even less capable of pure violence than he was before.

So far so good. But then in Season 7, Spike repeatedly says that he deliberately got his soul back as a way to appease Buffy.

Huh?

This looks like a continuity error, but Whedon fans know that such errors hardly ever happen. Buffy is an unusually consistent show. So clearly, the mistake must be mine. What am I missing?

Thanks for any help you can give.
 
S
StuckinTraffic
Welcome to Buffy Boards!
Basically it was made to look like Spike wanted to be Violent again but he did actually go to get his soul.

Buffy kept saying she could never love him cuz he was a demon, he didn't even have a soul, so his answer was to get a soul and then she could have no excuse to not love him. He thought that would show her.
 
Yeah, what Black Eye Guy said- he did always intend to get his soul. Even one of the writers said that was Spike's plan- to have his soul. We were judt misled on purpose so the ensoulment would be ashocker for us in the season finale rather than us saying for two or three episodes- oh, yeah Spike's trying to get his soul.
 
Well I think Black Eye Guy answered it best. But I would like to say Hi and welcome to the boards!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Thanks to you folks for your quick replies. I must say, that "mislead" was too misleading -- there are some actual lines spoken by Spike that very strongly point to a "I want to be violent again" message. If that was all deliberate, then the writers overdid it, in my opinion. That was more than misleading; it was a bait-and-switch. But given how many moments of perfection the writers delivered, I can forgive them one over-done manipulation.

Thanks again for your warm welcome. It's great to see a community that's still thriving, a few years after the show's end. I have turned-on many of my friends and acquaintances to this show, and lent them my boxed sets; all of them have come to love the series as much as I do. Buffy lives, even after death! (But then, we always knew this...)
 
inash said:
Thanks to you folks for your quick replies. I must say, that "mislead" was too misleading -- there are some actual lines spoken by Spike that very strongly point to a "I want to be violent again" message. If that was all deliberate, then the writers overdid it, in my opinion. That was more than misleading; it was a bait-and-switch. But given how many moments of perfection the writers delivered, I can forgive them one over-done manipulation.

Thanks again for your warm welcome. It's great to see a community that's still thriving, a few years after the show's end. I have turned-on many of my friends and acquaintances to this show, and lent them my boxed sets; all of them have come to love the series as much as I do. Buffy lives, even after death! (But then, we always knew this...)
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Hey with the comics she lives still!!!
 
to be fair to the writers, does Spike actually say 'i wanna be violent again'? i just looked at the transcripts for those few eps, and what he says is the following:

(Seeing Red)

She thinks she knows me. She thinks she knows who I am. What I'm capable of. She has no idea. I wasn't always this way. It won't be easy, but I can be like I was. Before they castrated me. Before... Then she'll see who I really am.
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granted,that sounds a little violent, the 'castrated' part. but to me it leans more towards that he wants to show Buffy the man he was before he was turned, the man she never got to meet.

Get nice and comfy Slayer. I'll be back. And when I do... it's all gonna change.
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again, can be interrpreted either way, as a violent thing, or as a promise that he's not gonna be the same vampire she knew.

(Villians)

DEMON: And you want to return to your former self.
SPIKE: Yeah.
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again, can be led to believe that Spike wants the chip out, but i take it that he wants to be the man he was. he mentions that everything went downhill after the chip, because that's when he fell in love with Buffy, because he was forced to work with her and her friends. if the chip wasn't there, he never would havehad these feelings.
Spike blames the chip for all his problems, but he doesn't ever specifically ask that the chip be removed.

(Grave)

DEMON VOICE: You have endured the required trials.
SPIKE: Bloody right I have.
SPIKE: So you'll give me what I want. Make me what I was. So Buffy can get what she deserves.
DEMON: Very well. We will return ...your soul.
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again, no mention of the chip. just what 'she deserves' and what 'he wants'. Spike thinks Buffy deserves a real man, with a soul, who can be worthy of her love, someone she deserves.
 
At the end of Season 6 Spike has made up his mind and wishes to go back to the simplicity of being William the Bloody, having the chip gone and his Vampire side freed, he saw it as if Buffy didn't love him, there was no point trying to be good or one of her gang anymore, back to the good old blood lust.

But the story in typical Whedon fashion goes all "deal with the devil" on him when he doesn't word his request right at any point, instead keeps saying something going back to "the way he was", ie with a soul. I don't think he meant to do that, but the part of him that had grown to love Buffy and make amends saw it as a way of being the man she needed him to be.

At least thats how it seemed to me. Oh and welcome to the board 😀
 
If Spike would have gone to get the chip removed, he wouldn't have lied to Buffy saying that he went for his soul.
 
Lyri
Lyri
*pouts* you got there first! lol
but if that was true, if Spike's intentions were to get the chip removed, why, thoughtout the entireity of S7, does he say that he went to get his soul back? he tells Buffy, repeatedly, that he asked for his soul back for her. in 'Sleeper' he tells Buffy:

No, not the chip! Not the chip, dammit. You honestly think I'd go to the end of the underworld and back to get my soul and then - (sighs, shakes head) Buffy, I can barely live with what I did. It haunts me. All of it. If you think that I would add to the body count now, you are crazy.
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if Spike had been stiched up, given his soul back when he wanted something else, he wouild have been pretty vocal about it. Spiek's not one to gripe in silence. even if it meant upsetting Buffy, and himself, he would have informed them all that, really, he went to get the chip out, but the demon double crossed him.
 
The "castration" remark is what I was thinking of. "UNtil they castrated me?" How on earth could that apply to his being changed from a human to a non-souled vampire? It much more accurately describes being made "soft" by the chip in his head. Castration robs you of testosterone. It makes you impotent. Throughout the seasons, there are many references to Spike's chip as a castrating thing, because it stops him from attacking. Remember when he tries to attack Willow, and the impotence metaphor is played up? And when he seeks shelter at Giles' house, he says he's been to the vet's, and now he doesn't chase the other puppies anymore. In other words, getting the chip = being castrated. So when Spike brings up that word at the end of Season 6, the only *logical* meaning is that he wants to get the chip removed and be made violent again. Otherwise, if it was about getting ensouled, he'd have to be likening being _sired_ to being _castrated_, and that just doesn't make any sense.
 
Welcome inash.

That's just the way Spike is. He talks about hurting Buffy when really he loves her more than anything.

We've seen him try to kiss her while they were in the middle of a big fight. We've seen him on his way to kill her with a shotgun, but he ended up sitting beside her, trying to comfort her.

In 'Once More, With Feeling' he was telling her to get away while physically blocking her from leaving, and there's the line "I hope she fries, I'm free if that bitch dies.... I better help her out."

So it's not that unusual for him to sound angry like he wants to kill her when actually he's out to get a soul so she might love him. I guess Buffy twists him in knots like no one else before.. his instinct is to get angry when she pushes him away, he solves everything else with violence, but he can't hurt her.
 
Hello Watcher1986, and thanks for the welcome.

You're right about Spike's paradoxical nature; but he usually makes sense. That is, his mixture of love/violence (which goes back to his relationship w/ Dru) might seem like a nonsensical thing, to some, but it makes a kind of psychological sense -- and Spike's language is usually coherently logical, too. His remarks add-up; if anything, he's likelier than other characters to cut through nonsense and state things insightfully and accurately.

So it seems jarring (to me) and pretty unusual, in Spike's history as a character, for him to make a metaphor that isn't on-point. "Before they castrated me" really sounds like a reference to the Initiative's implanting his chip. If it's meant to refer to something else, I can't imagine what that would be. Therefore, when he refers to the time "before they castrated [him]," it seemed to me that he was longing for his pre-chip days... his violent days. Not his pre-vamp days as a being w/a soul. (Besides, his losing his soul wasn't done by a "they," it was done by a "she": Drusilla).

But another possible meaning just occurred to me... if he really *did want his soul back, even from the get-go at the end of Season 6, maybe his line about "castration" was simply meant as part of an implied catalog of his recent history. That is, maybe he was saying "before I did this, before I did that, before X and Y happened...before all of it, I was different." In that case, that would resolve the puzzle: it would allow the castration remark to refer to the Intiative's chip, as I think it does, but without implying that Spike's aggressive "pre-chip days" are his ultimate goal. The symbolic castration is just one item on the historical list of events that stretches back to the time he wants to return to.

What do you think?
 
On the Season 6 DVDs, there's a panel with Joss, James, Alyson, Michelle, and a couple of other people. The panel-runner-person (I'm not sure what they actually call her) asked Joss if Spike had gone to get the chip out. He said "Neyoooooo." He admitted that we were MEANT to think that that's what Spike was doing, but he had honestly gone questing for his soul.

I think that the comment about being castrated was because he would never have gotten into this position, where he was so in love that he felt bad about perpetrating violence, if he hadn't had the chip shoved into his head. But now he IS in this position and knows he can't get out of it, so instead he's going to try to be better. As I've mentioned before, Spike is the most human vampire on the show. He seems to retain some semblance of a conscience or "soul" if you will; he was never quite as mean and bad as Angelus, Darla, or Dru. Even the Judge comments on it.

Welcome to the boards, by the way. : king :
 
inash said:
But another possible meaning just occurred to me... if he really *did want his soul back, even from the get-go at the end of Season 6, maybe his line about "castration" was simply meant as part of an implied catalog of his recent history. That is, maybe he was saying "before I did this, before I did that, before X and Y happened...before all of it, I was different." In that case, that would resolve the puzzle: it would allow the castration remark to refer to the Intiative's chip, as I think it does, but without implying that Spike's aggressive "pre-chip days" are his ultimate goal. The symbolic castration is just one item on the historical list of events that stretches back to the time he wants to return to.

What do you think?
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Kind of what I was thinking, except I couldn't explain it as well so I didn't bother.

The writers just really wanted us to think Spike was deactivating or removing the chip so they could do a twist. Building up to that surprise was more important than making complete sense (why would he choose the word 'castrated' if not to deceive the viewer), but you can always make up your own explanations later. Buffy fans got really got at doing that.

Recently Joss had to come up with his own explanation for the return of Warren when someone pointed out that he had definitely died because The First took his form. Joss added that Warren had died briefly but didn't know it himself - Amy, who is keeping him alive with magic, just didn't tell him.
 
Welcome to the boards!

See? You're already debating stuff. Tons of fun to be had here.

Anyway, I think Spike went after his soul, but that the writers did a bait-and-switch. Others have already presented quotes that pretty much explain my reasoning, so I'll leave it at that.
 
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