Spike's problem with Angel

tjkphilosopher

Need Faith on your side
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When Spike first showed up in LA to get his ring back, we saw a very memorable speech by Spike as he watched Angel saving a girl.

Howard Cosell has nothing on Spike when it comes to color commentary.

Spike loves to make digs and insults towards Angel. Neither one of them want to admit they are the same.

When Spike materializes in Angel's office the first thing he does is attempt to kill Angel.

Being so alike is that why both of them as Buffy stated engage in jealous vampire crap.
 
It seems to me that there has always been some form of competition between these two.

When they were both vampires (with Dru and Darla) it sort of seemed like there was a kind of competition about who could be the "better vampire".

In Sunnydale when Angel turned into Angelus it seemed there was competition for Dru and again we saw this sort of tension between them....a struggle for power almost.

Then in later seasons there is tension between them when Spike gets his soul...Angel is all "I started the whole soul thing before it was the cool new thing". So we again see the competition between them. We also see it again with Buffy.

I'm not sure exactly why that is....because I really don't think these two characters are very much alike. I think they're similar in that they both in the end have souls and want to atone for their past sins....and they both love the same woman....but their personalities, etc, are vastly different.

I don't know....I don't seem to have answered your question really. lol

Maybe someone else can offer a different view.
 
^ I agree. I think when Spike became popular and Joss decided to keep him on the show, he decided to write them like that just to make it interesting. I mean, here's two vampires, sired for similiar reasons (to be the companion of a female vampire) who go on to lead similar paths (Buffy, acquiring a soul). Yet, as Kimm said, are so different.
 
I think Spike and Angel are the same Vampire, with the same things to face, just showing different ways to deal with a situation.

Basically its an Alternate Reality Angel, but in the same reality.
 
I always speculated that the competition started when William the Bloody first arrived. He wanted to show that he could be a Big Bad.
That and Dru always paid more attention to Angelus than Spike, who she sired to be with her.
 
I think people think Spike and angel are the same because of the circumstances of Spikes siring.

When Dru sired spike it was so she could have her own companion since Angel was really darlas. But was really jealous of the bond (? cant think of a better word) between Dru and Angel. He wanted he and Dru to be like Darla and Angel. He wante to proove he was just as big and bad as Angel.

This most likely has to do with the rejection he suffered as a human from all around him. He wanted to fit in. And have a girl that loved him like darla loved Angel.

So yeah, jealousy but really he just wanted to fit in. And Angel always tried to make him feel inferior. Hence the hate. Issues from being human I'd imagine.


Wow I rambled a bit.
 
I don't think it had anything to do with Angelus and Darla, it had to do with Angelus alone.
If Spike was jealous of Angelus' relationship with Darla, then there would have been more between Spike and Darla, even an attempt from Spike to bed her after Angelus beds Drusilla.
As said in many threads, Darla and Angel/us were never in 'love', they were in lust, in love of death, ecstacy, but not love with each other.


No, it isn't just the siring and soul that show how these two are similar.
They are both given a 'love' angle.
Spike does, as a souless beast, love.
Angelus doesnt ever love, in the romantic sense, another person/thing.
Angelus brutality and evil manipulation for death and destruction.
In this case, Spike is aware that he could never best Angelus, so he goes for the one thing that could put him on par with the only person he dispises but admires, he goes, unrelentlessly, for the Slayer.

But the things that are similar are the things that separate them two, as i said in this thread earlier, they are the same entity, only showing how each version would have turned out had it made different decisions, but ultimately that the end goal would always have been the same, they would always have been the champion.
With hindsight it seems silly for us not to realise that Spike would have gotten his soul, because it was the destiny of Angel, so, it must have been Spikes destiny.
 
Well youve just shown how they are different then. It doesnt support yuor arguement. You said Spike did love Dru but Angelus couldnt love.

Also Angel had a soul forced upon him whereas Spike chose to get his soul back for Buffy. Nothing to do with Angel in the slightest. He wanted Buffy to get what she deserved. A guy who loved her, with a soul. That was all about his love for Buffy. Not cos Angel had one.
 
I tend to agree with what most of you have said here. I think the main thing about Spike and Angel is that they are constantly fighting for territory and neither can admit that they are just as strong as each other. I think that Angel thinks he has power over Spike because he was around for longer. He can't admit that Spike has seen what he has seen and loved as he has. He feels superior or wants to be.

The main deal in Season 5, when Spike appears, is that Angel was once unique because of his soul. Spike threatened that, even though there was no link. OK... I think I'm rambling now... I'm stopping!
 
Well youve just shown how they are different then. It doesnt support yuor arguement. You said Spike did love Dru but Angelus couldnt love.

Also Angel had a soul forced upon him whereas Spike chose to get his soul back for Buffy. Nothing to do with Angel in the slightest. He wanted Buffy to get what she deserved. A guy who loved her, with a soul. That was all about his love for Buffy. Not cos Angel had one.
My point is that they are both put in the same situations, such as Angelus/Darla and Spike/Drusilla and they are both different variations on the outcome.
All thethings point to Angelus loving Darla, but he never does, because of the path he is put on, where as Spikeis afforded that luxury.
It also doesnt matter how they get their souls, the pointis they DO get them and what they do with them.
Angel, when he gets his, fights for redemption, believing thats what he has to do to right his wrongs.
Spike on the other hand takes the opposite view. He knows he can't right the wrongs, because he knows they arent his wrongs, yet he is still the champion.
Both take different routes with the same things thrown at them, but handle the situations in contrast of one another, yet they both end up in that Alley, side by side, ready to die for the world.
That why i said that they are the same person on different routes, and thats why they have similar experiences, and thats also why they act completely different in each situation.
This is just the writers showing that had Angel loved anyone in a recipricated fashion, then he would have been on the same route as Spike, because Angelus is ruled by his head, Spike is Angelus ruled by his 'heart'.
 
K
Kimm
Not sure where I stand with this....but yours is definitely an interesting way to look at it.
fair enough, it just sounded like you thought they were the same character. Whereas its just the situation thats similar, the two of them are totally different.
 
fair enough, it just sounded like you thought they were the same character. Whereas its just the situation thats similar, the two of them are totally different.

Obviously the two are different, but they are the same character in different versions.
Like i say, if Angelus took on things with his heart, he'd be the Spike character, and If Spike worked using his head, then he'd be Angelus.
Even after the ensoulment, They still work this way.
The final coming together is Not Fade Away, when The Heart and the Head work together for the first time truly.
Thats why the end is so poigniant for these two specifically.
It might be that Spike was in Angel season 5 against what Joss and Co wanted, but thats what kinda adds a weird dimension to the relationship, as its this that has allowed some form of character angst closure for the two.
 
but thats what makes them so different to me. that they act so different. thats like saying faith and buffy are the same character. which, by the way, so not.
 
IF someone could delete the above comment i made, its the same as this one, only this has an extra part.......




but thats what makes them so different to me. that they act so different. thats like saying faith and buffy are the same character. which, by the way, so not.

You are totally missing the point that i am making.
The differences of these two characters are born from how they tackle the same situations.
Angel/us With his head.
Spike with his heart.
IF Angel/us tackled the situations he is placed in in the way that Spike does, and Spike did took them on using his head, the characters would be reversed.
Angelus would have a thirst for the Slayer blood.
Its the romantic notions of Spike that leads him to confront the two(three Buffy) Slayers, the searching out of your true enemy, and fighting to the death, thats where the romance, the heart lies.
Where as Angelus, he knew that he could learn from Darla originally, and this lead him to use his head, play the mind games on Dru, play the gameswith Holtz, ultimately that night with the Gypsies.

Neither Angelus or Spike are typical vampires, where generally the the Vampire runs on Instinct,these two use their humanity to be the better Vampire, and thats where the horror of what they were lies.

Thusly, had Spike used his mind and Angelus used his heart in the situations,they would have still got to that Alley, on that night, but taken the almost identical(obviously some differences) route of the other person.

Thats another reason why these two could never ever get on, as though sometimes the head and the heart work together, they never agree on whats theywant and whats best.

As for Faith and Buffy,Buffy herself acknowledges that there is 'Faith' inside her, the only difference is where Buffy fights it because she has reasonto,Faith doesnt.

The whole point of Faith was to show that Buffy was one version, and Faith was an alter ego, so to speak.....
Slayer versus Humanity.

There was alot of darkness to Faith granted, but her real issue isnt that she was Evil, its that she didn't have a human connection.
IF Faith had the family and the scoobs, she would have been 'Buffy'.
Faiths 'evil' isn't born from an evil within her, its born from rejection, loss, darkness and ultimately being alone.
The Slayer itself is ment to live alone, fight the good fight, but thats where its flaw is.
Look at the evidence, most Slayers live fast, die young, but we have two, two that have a connection that live past the usual sell by date.
Buffy who has all those people around her, and Nikki Wood.
Nikki Wood, is older then any Slayer we have previously seen or heard about. Granted she isnt THAT old, but there is a reason why the show made her look at least mid 20's.....24-27....she had a connection.
The fact she was a Slayer with a connection didnt make her invulnerable, but as Spike says in Fool for love about Buffy, It gave Nikki a Reason.
She still finally succumbed to the fight, but she gave it a fairer shot then most.

Back to Faith, the first time we actually see that she is ruled by her Slayer is by the Body Swap.
She could have left, made a life for her somewhere else, but instead, what does she do.
She fights the Vampires that leads to her being turned back to herself.

Then in LA, finally, the Slayer side has fought her darkness, its winning the battle within because sheis given what she wants....Help, finally someone on her side....a Connection....Angel.
Its his intervention that helps her make the decision to give herself up, its his belief that she is a better person that allows her to accept the Slayer, thus become human again...and its only him that is strong enough to allow her to rehabilitate herself enough to breakout of Prison and save him.

Again, Faith was always destined to fight alongside Buffy, even though its one girl in all the world, they have this bond beyond the Slayer, they have the inner darkness.....
 
K
Kimm
Very good explanation....
S
Spirit_Of_Fred
as many before you, i agree. you make good points; you're very observant.
Ok, off topic but Just watching the first Epi of Bones(finally started in UK) and Temperance just said to The David Boreanaz Character....
'I'm supposed to be the brains and YOU are the heart.'

I know its nothing to do with the convo, i just find it amusing considering in this thread all afternoon been saying how Spike was heart and Angel/us was the mind......i'll go away now
 
F
FahrbotDrusilla
haha cute.
Spike could see that Angel couldn't handle how Spike at first looked up to him. Angel doesn't like to be worshipped. So Spike will take every opportunity to insult him. The two of them got along with all the fighting and killing they did together. Intially Angel didn't know how Spike would fit into their little group. Angel at first liked being the alpha male with Darla and Drusilla.

Later on all Angel could see in Spike is what Angel used to be. What Angel is ashamed of. Then he finds out Spike has a soul he descends to the level of a 12 year old. He didn't like Spike following in Angel footsteps again.
 
He's uncomfortable when someone mentions that he is a hero. More than usual awkwardness. Didn't like Cordy idea for a commercial he as the dark avenger.

David on the other hand you see as Booth quite the opposite. Likes the attention.
 
He's uncomfortable when someone mentions that he is a hero. More than usual awkwardness. Didn't like Cordy idea for a commercial he as the dark avenger.

David on the other hand you see as Booth quite the opposite. Likes the attention.

I think that Angel was a lot more humble.

ANGELUS on the other hand would have loved to be worshipped. He had such a huge ego!!
 
W
Wicked
thats what i was thinking
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