Spikes 'Second Skin'

[NoShip]

A friend of mine who loves BTVS brought this up over beers watching a basketball game the other night. It led to quite an 'animated' ... errr ... 'discussion'. I really wanted to say something to destroy his theory and couldn't come up with anything useful.

The Theory?

That Spike wearing the leather coat that he took off Nikki Wood's still warm corpse was no different than wearing a necklace made from Nikki Wood's still warm ears.

My compadre, and his supporters, had a bunch of good arguments to compare the two and the best my Spike-bud and I could come up with was the coat wasn't made from Nikki's own skin (pathetic & cringy, I know)(Basically, I hate the theory because it is just so totally gross).

So, help me out..... How is Spike wearing a trophy taken from the still warm corpse of a women he just killed, NOT the equivalent of wearing a necklace of human ears?

 

[NotASlayer]

There is less blood. Other than that, it does have a very "serial killer collecting trophies from his victims" vibe.

EDIT: Well, perhaps a warrior taking a trophy from a fallen foe. Which is not that much different, especially as many did collect ears. It just sounds a bit better.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

What a strange discussion to have, lol.

Personally, I don't think there there is a comparison because the intention is different. Collecting ears, or scalping, would fall under actual human trophy collecting and the intention was to intimidate or humiliate the enemy.

Spike took Nikki's jacket as a trophy, plain and simple. Wearing it was a flex for him. Choosing to wear it daily reminded him that he killed her, and he's proud of that feat. Wearing the jacket would not intimidate his enemies, who are arguably other Slayers, because there's no way they would know it was Nikki's jacket. It's almost like it's Spike's little secret. He gets off on wearing it.

A better comparison would be serial killers taking trophies from their victims to help them relive or remember the killings.

 

[thetopher]

I never really had a problem with demon-Spike wearing something of his victim's; he killed her, he earned it, he's utterly evil and reprehensible and shows off how dangerous he is. Helps with his self-image and bragging rights.


But coming from souled-Spike it's incredibly cringe and gross.
For one souled Spike just isn't as dangerous as his unsouled self half the time, at least when it comes to slayers. The demon killed two slayers, as well as surviving multiple fights with Buffy by being a slippery bastard, the souled guy got easily decked by two (Faith, who he ran away from, and Dana who- totally untrained- beat and captured him) so he's not the same type of opponent imo.

But mostly it's horrific, pathetic and serial-killer-esque for a souled, 'heroic'character to play dress up to get in touch with his inner darkness. No other character does this; Giles doesn't have a 'ripper-tie' he puts on, Angel doesn't have a wimple from his favorite nun-murder, Faith ditches the pleather and Wesley has some stubble and that's about it, the darker aspects of their character is hidden and much more interesting for that.

'Big Bad' Spike is just a construct so William can hide from who he truly is. His coat isn't like a necklace of ears, it's like a serial killer fan-boy buying something similar on the black market and claiming that it's his. Like the evil version of stolen valor.

 

[NotASlayer]

I now have an image of Angel wearing a wimple.

 

[NoShip]

What a strange discussion to have, lol.

Personally, I don't think there there is a comparison because the intention is different. Collecting ears, or scalping, would fall under actual human trophy collecting and the intention was to intimidate or humiliate the enemy.

Spike took Nikki's jacket as a trophy, plain and simple. Wearing it was a flex for him. Choosing to wear it daily reminded him that he killed her, and he's proud of that feat. Wearing the jacket would not intimidate his enemies, who are arguably other Slayers, because there's no way they would know it was Nikki's jacket. It's almost like it's Spike's little secret. He gets off on wearing it.

A better comparison would be serial killers taking trophies from their victims to help them relive or remember the killings.

I think you are making a distinction without a difference.
How is:
A better comparison would be serial killers taking trophies from their victims to help them relive or remember the killings.
different from:
Spike took Nikki's jacket as a trophy, plain and simple. Wearing it was a flex for him. Choosing to wear it daily reminded him that he killed her, and he's proud of that feat.
It sounds like both are taking a trophy (the necklace of human ears) to remind them of the kill. This is exactly how my compadre and I got all bollixed up about the coat versus the necklace. So, we are in good company! Right?

 

[NotASlayer]

It sounds like both are taking a trophy (the necklace of human ears) to remind them of the kill. This is exactly how my compadre and I got all bollixed up about the coat versus the necklace. So, we are in good company! Right?

I think difference may be that the serial killer takes their trophy from a victim that was helpless, more often than not, and a victim that didn't choose to be attacked. A warrior takes something from a fallen foe who they beat in a, not necessarily fair, fight that the other did choose to fight. Though as Spike was hunting Nikki Wood, that is a bit borderline.

It's a very subtle distinction in this case and, as pointed out by @thetopher , utterly lost by S7.

 

[thetopher]

Yeah, it's more like the serial killer killed a cop or FBI agent that hunts serial killer's...and then wore his necklace in front of the FBI agent's son and told the son to get over it because the FBI agent was a crappy parent or whatever.

That would be acceptable action from a villain, not somebody the show is trying to convince you is 'a champion'.

 

[hoponlilmama]

I never really had a problem with demon-Spike wearing something of his victim's; he killed her, he earned it, he's utterly evil and reprehensible and shows off how dangerous he is. Helps with his self-image and bragging rights.

But coming from souled-Spike it's incredibly cringe and gross.

Yep. He paraded that coat in front of Wood, with the knowledge of how he took it, and needed to wear it again to be 'himself'. Definitely falls under the category of 'ick'.

Further proof the soul was just to impress Buffy.

S5 of Angel: "I don't give a piss about atonement". And in the episode 'The Girl In Question', he was devastated when the coat was ruined.

For one souled Spike just isn't as dangerous as his unsouled self half the time, at least when it comes to slayers. The demon killed two slayers, as well as surviving multiple fights with Buffy by being a slippery bastard, the souled guy got easily decked by two (Faith, who he ran away from, and Dana who- totally untrained- beat and captured him) so he's not the same type of opponent imo.

He was easily knocked about in s5 too.
But this just falls under typical writing to fit the situation. The audience knows Spike was a very capable fighter.

Reminds me of action films where apparently every bad guy suddenly has shocking aim and misses the protagonist by miles, even with 20 guys aiming at them. 🤣

 

[NotASlayer]

Yep. He paraded that coat in front of Wood, with the knowledge of how he took it, and needed to wear it again to be 'himself'. Definitely falls under the category of 'ick'.

Further proof the soul was just to impress Buffy.

I am not even sure it was even to impress Buffy. He used it as a weapon against her: "I got my soul for you, you should be grateful for that." Not "Sorry for everything I did to you and your friends." It all comes across as very, well, narcissistic; the soul being for Spike's benefit, not Buffy's.

Reminds me of action films where apparently every bad guy suddenly has shocking aim and misses the protagonist by miles, even with 20 guys aiming at them. 🤣

Proud graduates of the Imperial Stormtrooper Marksmanship Academy.

 

[hoponlilmama]

I am not even sure it was even to impress Buffy. He used it as a weapon against her: "I got my soul for you, you should be grateful for that." Not "Sorry for everything I did to you and your friends." It all comes across as very, well, narcissistic; the soul being for Spike's benefit, not Buffy's.

That's true, actually.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

That's true, actually.

Absolutely agree and this is coming from a die hard Spuffy. Spike didn't fight for the soul back because he really wanted it, to suffer and atone for his past sins like Angel has. Spike got it for Buffy, to be the man "that she deserves." He thought if he got it back then she'd accept him, give him a shot, and he would then be "good" enough for him. It's just a metaphor as the series does so well, in this case, an example of a man changing something about himself for a woman, because he wants her love.
Spike got the soul for Buffy, period.
And it worked, didn't it?
But this is off topic for this post, I digress. Sorry mods.

 

[hoponlilmama]

Absolutely agree and this is coming from a die hard Spuffy. Spike didn't fight for the soul back because he really wanted it, to suffer and atone for his past sins like Angel has. Spike got it for Buffy, to be the man "that she deserves." He thought if he got it back then she'd accept him, give him a shot, and he would then be "good" enough for him. It's just a metaphor as the series does so well, in this case, an example of a man changing something about himself for a woman, because he wants her love.

👍Thank you for saying so and calling it for what it is. Without trying to come off as harsh, but there's a chunk of Spuffy fans out there with blinders on to the whole 'relationship'.

I've referenced this scene a few times from AtS S5 episode Destiny - Spike peacocking around and telling Angel he got his soul because, "..it was the right thing to do". And Angel replies with, "Really? I heard it was just to get into a girl's pants" - and he's not wrong!

Spike got the soul for Buffy, period.
And it worked, didn't it?
But this is off topic for this post, I digress. Sorry mods.

Are you saying it worked in that he 'got the girl' in the end? If you're referring to life post s7 and the comics, I don't follow them, and they're not part of the universe to me. In terms of the TV series, he never really had her in s7 either.

Hehe, sometimes a thread veers slightly off course at times. It happens!

 

[Btvs fan]

A friend of mine who loves BTVS brought this up over beers watching a basketball game the other night. It led to quite an 'animated' ... errr ... 'discussion'. I really wanted to say something to destroy his theory and couldn't come up with anything useful.

The Theory?

That Spike wearing the leather coat that he took off Nikki Wood's still warm corpse was no different than wearing a necklace made from Nikki Wood's still warm ears.

My compadre, and his supporters, had a bunch of good arguments to compare the two and the best my Spike-bud and I could come up with was the coat wasn't made from Nikki's own skin (pathetic & cringy, I know)(Basically, I hate the theory because it is just so totally gross).

So, help me out..... How is Spike wearing a trophy taken from the still warm corpse of a women he just killed, NOT the equivalent of wearing a necklace of human ears?

He does lose it by Angel Season 5 and wears coats from Rome by that point

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

👍Thank you for saying so and calling it for what it is. Without trying to come off as harsh, but there's a chunk of Spuffy fans out there with blinders on to the whole 'relationship'.

Sure thing! Yeah, I love Spuffy, believe they're soulmates, but don't romanticize them at all.
Their relationship was and is messy. Which is maybe what I find so real and relatable about it.

I've referenced this scene a few times from AtS S5 episode Destiny - Spike peacocking around and telling Angel he got his soul because, "..it was the right thing to do". And Angel replies with, "Really? I heard it was just to get into a girl's pants" - and he's not wrong!

Yep. It wasn't just about sex though. -Spike can get laid after all. He wanted Buffy's love too. No question. That's why even after he got into her pants for months, he still went and got his soul. She said she couldn't love him, that it was "killing" her (because he was a demon) and thats why she dumped him. So he figured if he could get is soul, be closer to a human or like Angel, she'd love him. And it worked. She did say she loved in the end of course.

Are you saying it worked in that he 'got the girl' in the end? If you're referring to life post s7 and the comics, I don't follow them, and they're not part of the universe to me. In terms of the TV series, he never really had her in s7 either.

Yep, definitely referring to the comic continuation of the series, which are canon despite how awful they are and weather or not you want them to be 😉

 

[NoShip]

Their relationship was and is messy. Which is maybe what I find so real and relatable about it.

I don't get the real & relatable part but I would describe Spuffy as abusive. From School Hard (or whichever episode people start Spuffy) thru Chosen (Spike was abusive even with a soul). So.....

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Yeah, he defeated Nikki The Vampire Slayer in a fair fight and gave her a clean death. If he really wanted to torture and flay her, he would have done so.

 

[NotASlayer]

I would debate the "fair fight" aspect, but in such a situation, do you really want to fight fair? Though Spike is enough of a Blood Knight that he would not, say, just stab her in the back.

The coat is, probably, a warrior's trophy when it is taken, though Spike hunting Nikki down does erode that a bit; I could argue either way on that. Later, very definitely not.

 

[hoponlilmama]

Sure thing! Yeah, I love Spuffy, believe they're soulmates, but don't romanticize them at all.
Their relationship was and is messy. Which is maybe what I find so real and relatable about it.

Yep. It wasn't just about sex though. -Spike can get laid after all. He wanted Buffy's love too. No question. That's why even after he got into her pants for months, he still went and got his soul. She said she couldn't love him, that it was "killing" her (because he was a demon) and thats why she dumped him. So he figured if he could get is soul, be closer to a human or like Angel, she'd love him. And it worked. She did say she loved in the end of course.

Yep, definitely referring to the comic continuation of the series, which are canon despite how awful they are and weather or not you want them to be 😉

I respectfully disagree with your points above (the ol' 'we'll agree to disagree on the matter!), and as you mentioned we've veered a little off course with this discussion, so I'll leave it at that. 👍🙂