Spoiler! Spoilery speculations about season 9

[Moscow Watcher]

I wonder if anybody is interested in discussing possible plot developments for "Buffy" and "A&F".

I have a crazy idea about Angel. The cover of issue 7 features Angel casting two shadows - Giles and vamped out Angel. Could the artist imply that Giles' personality somehow ended up in Angel's body? That Angel and Giles will have to share the same body - at least for a while?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v671/MoscowWatcher/Comics_s9/ANGELAF7FCFNLcopy.jpg

Yesterday I was rewatching "Dollhouse" finale, and it struck me. The main couple of the show ends up sharing the same body. What if Joss had some ideas about that situation but couldn't realise them in Dollhouse? What if now he wants to apply them to another pair of characters with a rich past?

Now, magic is gone, but in Dollhouse it was a technology that did the trick.

I know, my idea is pretty crazy. But I can't stop thinking about the possibility.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Another speculation that fascinates me is about the possibility of Spike siring Buffy by the end of season 9. It's not my idea - I read it on LJ. So far, nothing indicates such plot development - but, in the grander scheme of events, it's logical. Season 8 broke the hearts of Bangel shippers, now it's our turn. Joss has to keep the balance between two shipping factions.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

I have a crazy idea about Angel. The cover of issue 7 features Angel casting two shadows - Giles and vamped out Angel. Could the artist imply that Giles' personality somehow ended up in Angel's body? That Angel and Giles will have to share the same body - at least for a while?

Don't think it's crazy! The cover certainly has its implications, and "as justice goes, it's not unpoetic."

Another speculation that fascinates me is about the possibility of Spike siring Buffy by the end of season 9.

No, please no! That would be torture for Spuffies, but like you said, we're due again. In any case, I think if that were to happen it'd be a complete accident somehow, and thus would begin round 1,000 of "Buffy starts on a long road to forgive (or not), yet another vampire lover..."

 

[Moscow Watcher]

In any case, I think if that were to happen it'd be a complete accident somehow, and thus would begin round 1,000 of "Buffy starts on a long road to forgive (or not), yet another vampire lover..."

I think if it happens, writers will intdoruce a situation similar to The Beast and Angelus on AtS season 4. For some reason they'll need a vampire!Buffy to save the world.

I could see Joss going there to break fans' hearts. After the space-frak or pain barrier is much higher and Joss needs something really powerful to do it again.

 

[VisionGirl]

Another speculation that fascinates me is about the possibility of Spike siring Buffy by the end of season 9. It's not my idea - I read it on LJ. So far, nothing indicates such plot development - but, in the grander scheme of events, it's logical. Season 8 broke the hearts of Bangel shippers, now it's our turn. Joss has to keep the balance between two shipping factions.

I'm going to be completely honest here- Spuffy never has nor never will go through the angst that Bangel has. I don't know why, but Joss just never takes the Spuffy relationship there. The closest is Seeing Red, but all was forgiven the next season. I mean think about it: Buffy's lover (Angel) turned evil after they had sex, he kills ones she loves, she kills him, he comes back (in dramatic fashion), he leaves her, they have another chance at happiness that he chooses not to take. Not to mention all the season 8 stuff.

Maybe it's more about Spike's personality. He doesn't do angst, he doesn't do brooding.

I don't know, I guess it would be interesting. But I could really see Spuffy fans up in arms about that level of pain. We Bangels- I guess we're used to it LOL!

 

[Moscow Watcher]

[MENTION=10354]VisionGirl[/MENTION]

It's a very debatable point - who suffered more, Spuffies or Bangels! 🙂 As a Spuffy, I can tell you that for me season 6 was very angsty, season 7 was long anticipation and short, intense payoff, and season 8 was a huge letdown.

I agree about Spike not brooding. But it only means that Joss will simply send him away if this scenario happens. Either to A&F or to his own mini, or into deep space on his ship, until Joss needs him again -- to torture him and Buffy.

Of course, there is a possibility that Spike will just be there for Buffy, playing Xander's former role. But I doubt that Joss hasn't concocted some nasty trick for him. That would be un-Joss-y.

 

[ladydorotea]

Meh, I suspect VisionGirl is right. Too late to squeeze any angst now - time for that is way past in S8. The return of the Jedi went relatively jolly and peppy, and now it is more of a getting into the routine of daily business stuff. If you are worrying about that retro cover callback - I am of a mind that it is merely a flashback to year circa 1973 in NY. Which is exactly what Jeanty promised. Read the Blackout novel if you want more details on this period in the verse and Spike's situation back then, re: Nikki. It is (relatively) Spike-friendly and a lot of fun.

 

[Icarium]

I think if it happens, writers will intdoruce a situation similar to The Beast and Angelus on AtS season 4. For some reason they'll need a vampire!Buffy to save the world.

The Beast and Angelus plot was already stupid enough even with Angel living for centuries. I really don't see any scenario in which Vamp!Buffy will be better qualified to do something than Human!Buffy.

I could see Joss going there to break fans' hearts. After the space-frak or pain barrier is much higher and Joss needs something really powerful to do it again.

Or maybe he needs to get a clue and starts writing an actual compelling story that makes sense rather than a series of cheap "shocking" twists. I know, that would be a rather novel concept for 21st century Joss, but it might just work.

 

[Kean]

I suspect Spuffies will get everything they have ever wanted for the ship in exactly the way they never wanted it. Just like Bangel got last season.

All I have heard Spuffies say is that they wanted Buffy and Spike back together fighting and flirting and being there for each other. And that is exactly what you are getting...for now. But I sincerely doubt it will end the way you hope it to. And I don't just mean because I don't believe in that story, but because Whedon would simply never allow that kind of happiness/contentment for any of his characters (or fans).

And I don't mean that in a spiteful way. I really don't. This is just Whedon's M.O. A story is only ever "real", "mature" or "compelling" if it is completely devoid of joy.

 

[Moscow Watcher]

Meh, I suspect VisionGirl is right. Too late to squeeze any angst now - time for that is way past in S8. The return of the Jedi went relatively jolly and peppy, and now it is more of a getting into the routine of daily business stuff. If you are worrying about that retro cover callback - I am of a mind that it is merely a flashback to year circa 1973 in NY. Which is exactly what Jeanty promised. Read the Blackout novel if you want more details on this period in the verse and Spike's situation back then, re: Nikki. It is (relatively) Spike-friendly and a lot of fun.

Too late? For Joss, it's never too late! 🙂 His ability to squeeze angst from every pore of every story he writes has no bounds.

I don't worry about Jeanty's Nikki cover. I worry about Morris' Spuffy cover and promises of pro-Spuffy scenes in the next arc. We all know that when Joss gives something to shippers it's only to take away much more than was given. {/paranoid} 🙂

ETA: What Kean says.

Icarium
I really don't see any scenario in which Vamp!Buffy will be better qualified to do something than Human!Buffy.

Vampire hearing. Vampire sense of smell. Vampire ability to stay underwater. Or in vacuum.

Or maybe they'll need a ruthless, unscrupulous unsouled Buffy. The one who isn't a hero. Who isn't kind and noble and generous. Who doesn't mind casualties. Who can kill to achieve her goals.

Remember this dialogue in "Serenity"?

Zoà«: In the time of war, we would never have left a man behind.
Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: Maybe that's why we lost.

Kean
This is just Whedon's M.O. A story is only ever "real", "mature" or "compelling" if it is completely devoid of joy.

Joss sees "Buffy" as tragedy. The only place where she can be happy is fanfiction - and we'll provide poor girl with all happiness we can imagine! 🙂

 

[ladydorotea]

If you are referring to the chocolate cover it was not by Morris , but by Phil Noto. There is absolutely nothing on it to worry about, IMHO. Definitely nothing as dire as turning Buffy into vamp 2.0 in S9. For the record - I would not be worried about Spuffy getting Bangel treatment of any sorts in any season ever. The story is different, the character is different, the relationship is totally different and the treatment of it is very different too. Even the cover you referred to is very different in all of its aspects. We were told 'Spike will be doing pretty much the same stuff in S9 that he was doing in S8', except getting more responsibilities as SF police vampire liaison. So far the story sticks to these points. He was not turning maidens into vamps in S8 - hence he won't be doing it in S9. The relationship will be complicated - because Buffy will be 'all into his face' - tis hard to be all into your Sire's face when you are vamp 2.0.

 

[Moscow Watcher]

OOps! Yes, I mean Noto's cover.

Yes, the everything is different, but Joss is the same. If he keeps Spike around, then he has some nasty plans for him. Spike is not Willow and Xander who will always be present in her story. Joss uses vampires to hurt Buffy, whether they want to kill her or to save her.

As to writers' promises, I take them with a grain of salt. Buffy may be "all into Spike's face" for a while (or maybe for 9/10 of the season), and then there will be a big finale featuring a big disaster.

(Maybe it's my Spuffy sensibility speaking. I got used to crumbs, and when I'm told about a lot of Spuffy goodness lying ahead, my first queston is "What's the catch?")

 

[ladydorotea]

Well, there is no need to worry about things that have not shaped up yet, right? And I honestly think the angst might never materialize. Definitely not on the Bangel level, and definitely not from the source you seem to worry about - ie vamping. If you like your goodness the way it is served right now, I honestly think you should not worry about getting the rug pulled out any time soon. Spike is basically treated like any other of the Scoobs right now and on top of it he is getting a storyline of his own. IMHO - the conflict when it comes will come from Buffy's side somehow. So, unless you worry about Robin Wood/Buffy dalliance , lol, I cannot see how any Spuffy goodness will be spoiled.

 

[Moscow Watcher]

We'll see. I'm terrible at predictions (back in 2007 I thought season 8 would have a big Buffy/Xander romance).

I hope I learned not to take the events of the show too close to heart. 🙂

 

[Icarium]

Vampire hearing. Vampire sense of smell. Vampire ability to stay underwater. Or in vacuum.

All of which are possessed by Spike. I doubt there will be a storyline where the ability to smell things or stay underwater would be crucial anyway.

Or maybe they'll need a ruthless, unscrupulous unsouled Buffy. The one who isn't a hero. Who isn't kind and noble and generous. Who doesn't mind casualties. Who can kill to achieve her goals.

Who also couldn't care less about said goals, since she would be evil, remember? Angel killed the Beast on a whim, it would be astonishingly stupid for Buffy to agree to be vamped, just on the chance that Vamp!Buffy might do something on a whim. Not to mention that we have already had plenty of storylines about people being ruthless for the greater good - Giles, Wesley, Angel,, even Buffy in S7. No need for anyone to become a vampire/lose their soul for such a storyline to happen. If anything, vamping would decrease the dramatic impact since everyone will expect Buffy to regain her soul soon and whatever she has done soulless wouldn't really count against her.

Yes, the everything is different, but Joss is the same. If he keeps Spike around, then he has some nasty plans for him. Spike is not Willow and Xander who will always be present in her story.

I don't want to turn this into a shipping debate but at least the Spuffy fans have a viable ship to complain about. All the other ships from the TV show have been sunk, with the possible exception of Bangel. Two seasons of "Spike, Spike, Spike!" and one where he is not a central character only because he is one (or so, I have heard, at least) in another comic series by another publishing house and suddenly all I hear is how Joss doesn't appreciate Spike. It's not called "Spike, the vampire", people.

 

[Moscow Watcher]

Icarium
I doubt there will be a storyline where the ability to smell things or stay underwater would be crucial anyway.

I agree. I was just answering your question about scenario in which Vamp!Buffy will be better qualified to do something than Human!Buffy.

Who also couldn't care less about said goals, since she would be evil, remember?

She could not care about goals, but still care about the people she loves. Like Spike, James, Elisabeth did.

If anything, vamping would decrease the dramatic impact since everyone will expect Buffy to regain her soul soon and whatever she has done soulless wouldn't really count against her.

It would count for Buffy. Cue angst. Joss --> happy.

all I hear is how Joss doesn't appreciate Spike. It's not called "Spike, the vampire", people.

I think you misunderstood me. When I say that Joss has some nasty plans for Spike, I don't mean that Joss doesn't appreciate him. Quite the opposite. The more Joss loves that character, the more he tortures him.

 

[Icarium]

She could not care about goals, but still care about the people she loves.

Says who? Most vamps we have seen either couldn't care less about their previous friends or wanted to vamp them. Including, Spike, the ultimate momma's boy. Wanting to turn someone into vampire is the opposite of caring about them. You don't suppose Vamp!Willow would do what Buffy tells her, do you? Why assume that Vamp!Buffy would give a damn about her friends then?

It would count for Buffy. Cue angst. Joss --> happy.

It would also count if Human!Buffy is to be ruthless, so the vamping becomes pointless.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

Wanting to turn someone into vampire is the opposite of caring about them.

Not when the person in question is dying from an incurable disease, and the vampire in question has no concept yet of the beast he's become; only that he's now feeling his healthiest and happiest.
In any case, if Spike could retain enough humanity to care about his mother after being turned, (which I maintain he absolutely did and basically is the entire point of those flashbacks), and James and Elizabeth could remember their love for each other, and Drusilla could still be crushed by the loss of her family members, it's not completely ridiculous to assume that Buffy retain her loyalty, too. Especially given her extraordinary strength of character as a human. Sure, based on odds alone, it's not the most likely scenario. But it wouldn't exactly make me jump off the couch in shock either since it's been established that that behavior is possible.

 

[Icarium]

Not when the person in question is dying from an incurable disease, and the vampire in question has no concept yet of the beast he's become

Why wouldn't he know what he has become? That makes no sense, Every other vampire we have seen knows that immediately and tries to kill the first person they see.

Drusilla could still be crushed by the loss of her family members

Huh? If she were crushed by that she wouldn't have spent decades hanging around with their murderer.

Siring people who have been close to you is not at all an indication of loyalty to them or their causes. It just means the vampire in question would love to on the prowl with them - as vampires. The reaction of Vamp!Willow when she finds out Xander is human in Doppelgangland tells it all. You can hardly find any two characters closer to each other than Willow and Xander, and yet Vamp Willow is disgusted by the idea of Xander being human. There is also Harmony backstabbing Cordelia in Disharmony. And we have zero examples of a vampire staying loyal to their human friends and even fewer examples of vamps who do it when said friends have killed like thousands of vampires.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

Huh? If she were crushed by that she wouldn't have spent decades hanging around with their murderer.

I agree that it's bizarre but we see in "What's My Line" that Dru the vampire is extremely and passionately upset over the loss and suffering that her family experienced at Angel's hands. Believe me I have no idea why she'd have no problem hanging out with the guy who was responsible for it yet had no qualms with torturing that guy once he had started repenting for it.

 

[Moscow Watcher]

Says who?

Says the history of the show. Joss consistently accomodates his mythology to his narrative demands.

F.ex., in Nightmares Vampire!Buffy helps her friends. And, before you argue that "it's a dream so it doesn't count", I want to elaborate that, again, I'm not talking about mythology; I talk about writing techniques. When Joss needs Vampire!Buffy cooperating with Scoobies, he makes her cooperative. But in Doppelgangland he needs a completely evil vamp!Willow - and she's completely evil.

Buffyverse mythology is so rich and so fuzzy that a writer can find a basis for practically every twist.

Off the cuff: Buffy already has her inner "slayer demon" inside her (Severin felt it when he touched her face). Her slayer demon will be stronger than the other-dimension-demon with a remote control in his hands.

BTW, I just read a very interesting spec by Nmcil (on another board) - that Buffy may end up the next guardian of the seed, The Master's successor, or a vessel for the seed.