Spuffy #6 - General Discussion

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1. What is your favorite unintentionally shippy moment? (you know, an unthinking or accidental admission of how close they are?)

It wasn't really accidental. But it was in Fool for Love when Spike goes to Buffy's house to shoot her, and he ends up comforting her on her back porch. I mention it because it made my heart flutter and I watched that one scene about 5 times in a row. It doesn't much count for this question but I can't think of an accidental one right now 😛

2. What is your favourite Spike vs. Buffy fight?

Smashed, yep.

3. Did anyone convert you to Spike/Buffy, or did you start shipping it on your own? Have you converted anyone to Spike/Buffy?

People with similar tastes to myself told me I would like Spike before I ever watched Buffy, so I was probably predisposed. But I'd have come to it on my own. I don't think I've ever converted anyone - I was like, the last person on the planet to watch Buffy I think.

4. Was Spike ever really a Scooby? Will he be one in season 9?

I don't read the comics, but as far as the show is concerned, no. He never was.

5. Do you think we'll ever get a canonical (in text) clarification as to whether or not Buffy meant her "I love you", or do you think Joss will keep us guessing for ever and ever and ever?

I bet at this point he's just going to enjoy our torment.
 
I love Spuffy & I woke up with a hankering for Spikee so I'm gonna launch a rewatch, starting with S4 though cause Bangel just makes me angry and depressed.
 
These are some great questions, so much to think about 🙂

1. What is your favorite unintentionally shippy moment? (you know, an unthinking or accidental admission of how close they are?)

The hells bells scene is one of my faves, just after they've officially ended their relationship, yet you can see how much there still is between them. Also, something blue when Willow made them fall in love, you could here already see all the potential for a genuine relationship to develop between them.

2. What is your favourite Spike vs. Buffy fight?

Is it halloween in season 2 when Spike videotapes Buffy in preparation for fighting her? I liked the way he used different methods to research his fight rather than just going in gung ho. Also Fool for love of course and then also Harsh light of day when Spike found the ring and was able to fight Buffy in the daylight.

3. Did anyone convert you to Spike/Buffy, or did you start shipping it on your own? Have you converted anyone to Spike/Buffy?

No one converted me, it just grew on me first time watching season 5, with him dreaming about Buffy first, then the Fool for Love episode and ending, then the Crush episode and culminating in the kiss scene in intervention. That series of events is what made me a Spuffy shipper. I knew someone a while back at University who was a Bangel Shipper and I couldn't get them to appreciate the later seasons of Buffy. I knew someone else at Uni who also liked the Spuffy scenes and we joked once about how great a Buffy Bot would be. Those are pretty much my only real-life experiences talking about Buffy to others first-hand (almost ten years ago!). I couldn't convert my sister to Buffy at all, let alone to Spuffy.

In sum, I think it's difficult to convert people, because people are all different and have different backgrounds, its just something that some people take too naturally, although for anyone who has success converting others well done to you, because its definitely worthwhile and I don't think some people know what they're missing out on. 🙂

4. Was Spike ever really a Scooby? Will he be one in season 9?

The only time's that Spike was a fully-fledged scooby in my mind was temporarily in Tabula Rasa when they had all lost their memories, one of the reasons I like that episode I think. I don't think others in the gang could ever fully forgive him after crush, and after the episode in that series when they all turned on Spike when he showed up at the magic shop I don't think he wanted to be one of the scoobies, he was happy to be on the outside of it.

Having said that, there were a few other moments when he came close to being a part of the gang, he seemed to start as one at the beginning of season 6 and at the end of season 5, then also Tabula Rasa, Older and Far away, so maybe it is possible he could become one in season 9.

5. Do you think we'll ever get a canonical (in text) clarification as to whether or not Buffy meant her "I love you", or do you think Joss will keep us guessing for ever and ever and ever?

No clarification needed for me, it spoke for itself, it's always going to be different if and when they meet up again after season 7, but in that moment she did mean it I think.
 
1. What is your favorite unintentionally shippy moment? (you know, an unthinking or accidental admission of how close they are?)
Ag! So many!!! But I think I'm going to have to go with Life Serial. He's the one she goes to after her awful day, and it's just a great little scene where they are just friends. They're actually just hanging out, and I love that.

2. What is your favourite Spike vs. Buffy fight?
Tough because I honestly can't think of many. Smashed obviously comes to mind. Oh! They're little fight/dance thing in Fool For Love. Not long, not intense, but very cool.

3. Did anyone convert you to Spike/Buffy, or did you start shipping it on your own? Have you converted anyone to Spike/Buffy?
I'd had their ship spoiled for me by various internet things, so I'd say I was prepped to love them. Back when I was still season 3, they whole idea was just so exotic and new and sexy; I really looked forward to it. And then it happened and it was just amazing. I don't think I was converted, but I also wouldn't say I got there completely independently either.

4. Was Spike ever really a Scooby? Will he be one in season 9?
No idea about S9.But I think Spike was his most Scooby-ish in Season 4. They kept him informed, he helped out. I would definitely consider him a Scooby at that point. But not any other time.

5. Do you think we'll ever get a canonical (in text) clarification as to whether or not Buffy meant her "I love you", or do you think Joss will keep us guessing for ever and ever and ever?

I'm almost sure we won't, and I think it's better that way. I like that it's open to interpretation. And to me, it's not needed. Buffy loved Spike. Their whole relationship was leading up to that moment. Of course she loved him. I don't need Joss to tell me that.
 
Fans Enisy and Ubi4Soft from another board found an old Joss interview (summer 2001) where he talks about Spuffy:

http://www.btvs-tabularasa.net/spoilerzone/spoilers20010730.html

Question: Also, given the many vital uses of the Buffybot towards the end of the series...
Joss Whedon: [English accent] You perv!

Question: And at what point did you decide to have Spike fall in love with Buffy?
Joss Whedon: That was towards the end of his first season, where he had come on and really didn't have that much to do, he'd show up and go [Spinal Tap voice] "I hate the Scooby gang. 'bye!", he was sort of the wacky neighbour, and we thought, "Well, there's more there; how do we find it?" And it was like one of those things that just hits you on the head like a baseball bat, because it made such perfect sense for him to fall in love with Buffy because he wants to get his ass kicked and she's the person who always does that. And their relationship was so intense and so filled with the hate that it was as though we had been writing towards it anyway. And when I told James, he was like, "I wanted to pitch that but I thought that would be presumptuous of me," and I was like, "Well, don't worry, 'cause we're gonna go there the full nine yards." It seemed so obvious when I thought of it that I was like, "Why didn't I think of it before?", but I just have to wait for it to come.
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Doppelgang
Doppelgang
Great Insight
S
StarSlayer
It did make perfect sense! Thanks for posting! :)
Wow, THANK YOU for this quote! I had no idea James was like that, actually wanting it before it happened in Joss' head. Very interesting. And Joss is right. It makes sense.
 
AWWWW and he's so right! Before the magic of getting his soul... he was good. KLJSLDKFJKLDF KLSJLKFJKLD OOOOOOHHHHHH I love my Spikey!!! And I love my Spuffy!!! I just had a fangirl moment.
 
I really really really really love all these excerpts from the Spike comics, because to be honest I was a little afraid that Spike had stopped feeling that way about Buffy, and I'm so glad to see that he still loves her just as much. I'm sure he always did and usually there's no doubt in my mind about our Spuffy, but sometimes Joss is evil, as we all know, and so I started to question Spike a little. 😉

Are these comics canon? From what I've heard they're "semi-canon" because Joss was a little bit involved, but I'm not sure. I really hope they're canon!!
 
Gum Gnome33
Gum Gnome33
I just heard recently that they sort of connect the Angel comics to Buffy 8--that they bring us into what's currently happening on Buffy. I can't belive I just discovered this!
Oooh I know! And I read a preview for what comes after that scene...wow, just makes me like Spike even more.
 
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prophecygrrl
*scrambles off to read preview* :D
I'm not sure I agree with the assertion that Spike was "good" prior to getting the soul - I know he wanted to be and he was trying (and I give him full credit for that) but saying that his goodness was a done deal effectively suggests that the soul was just window dressing and seems to dilute the magnitude of his acctually going to get the soul.

**I haven't read the comic yet though.
 
S
StarSlayer
Very true
Tranquillity said:
I'm not sure I agree with the assertion that Spike was "good" prior to getting the soul - I know he wanted to be and he was trying (and I give him full credit for that) but saying that his goodness was a done deal effectively suggests that the soul was just window dressing and seems to dilute the magnitude of his acctually going to get the soul.

**I haven't read the comic yet though.
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I agree, I didn't see him as 'good' exactly, but I saw him trying. Which to me showed a lot more than if he was just good then fell in love with her. He was giving up everything he knew because he just wanted her to see him as a man. ... Sorry, got a bit caught up. Anywho, yes, I agree with your post.
 
EvilBuffy said:
I agree, I didn't see him as 'good' exactly, but I saw him trying. Which to me showed a lot more than if he was just good then fell in love with her. He was giving up everything he knew because he just wanted her to see him as a man. ... Sorry, got a bit caught up. Anywho, yes, I agree with your post.
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To me, the trying is being good. I always believed in my Spikey. In FFL when he picked up that gun, I knew he wasn't going to do it... because I believed in him. In Intervention, I knew he wasn't going to tell Glory... because I believed in him. The list goes on and on.
 
Tranquillity said:
I'm not sure I agree with the assertion that Spike was "good" prior to getting the soul - I know he wanted to be and he was trying (and I give him full credit for that) but saying that his goodness was a done deal effectively suggests that the soul was just window dressing and seems to dilute the magnitude of his acctually going to get the soul.

**I haven't read the comic yet though.
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I was thinking about this, and I agree. I haven't read the comic yet either, but I'm not sure I like that Spike thinks he was good before the soul. It's even a little OOC for me? Considering what drove him to even go get his soul, it's just a little bit hard for me to believe that he thought of his soulless self as 'good'. I would think that it showed him exactly what he was capable of without a soul, and that's something that can never be purely 'good'. Of course I give him credit for trying to be good and I think from an observer point of view one could say he was a 'good' vampire (compared to the norm), but I guess I just don't like him saying it about himself. I'd rather he was... more humble about it? Not that he's ever really humble 🙂D), it's just that out of everything, I've always viewed his soul as something he doesn't wear lightly. He doesn't wear his sins lightly either, as we see in AtS Season 5, when he accepts that he's going to hell and he still keeps on fighting.

maybe it's just nitpicky writing, lol. I do really agree that Buffy gave him the inspiration to be good and I like when he says that she made him better, it's just the "I was good." part that kind of irks me.
 
prophecygrrl said:
maybe it's just nitpicky writing, lol. I do really agree that Buffy gave him the inspiration to be good and I like when he says that she made him better, it's just the "I was good." part that kind of irks me.
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Lets not forget the chip in his head was also one of the factors in why he came to be good, as without that he would have killed, or been killed by Buffy before he had a chance to see what his true feelings were for Buffy and how she could inspire him to be good.

In a sense you could view that as symbolism of progress of Spike in his moral outlook from a moral conscience enforced on him by others (the chip) to a moral conscience embraced by himself (the soul).

However that would mean that he was pretty much bad before this combination of events. I don't know maybe he always had the potential to be good, and the chip and then Buffy helped him in this direction.
 
On the subject of Spike being "good" pre-soul. My favorite example of this was brought up by my lovely friend Elisabeth who just finished her first watch of Tabula Rasa. Spike has no soul. He doesn't remember the chip. And yet, even after he finds out he's a vampire again, he feels no need to hurt Buffy or the other Scoobies. In fact, he still wants to protect them. When he's confronted about his being a vampire by Buffy, he describes himself as Angel: a vampire with a soul out to help the helpless. He feels no need to go wreak havoc and be evil... he feels the need to help and be good. He describes an anomaly... a HUGE anomaly at that... to explain this. Angel's situation is so rare and improbable that it means a great deal that THAT was his explanation. He felt like he had a soul before he did. Obviously he didn't feel all the effects of a soul... but he did feel goodness... and a lack of evil.
 
zobothehobo said:
On the subject of Spike being "good" pre-soul. My favorite example of this was brought up by my lovely friend Elisabeth who just finished her first watch of Tabula Rasa. Spike has no soul. He doesn't remember the chip. And yet, even after he finds out he's a vampire again, he feels no need to hurt Buffy or the other Scoobies. In fact, he still wants to protect them. When he's confronted about his being a vampire by Buffy, he describes himself as Angel: a vampire with a soul out to help the helpless. He feels no need to go wreak havoc and be evil... he feels the need to help and be good. He describes an anomaly... a HUGE anomaly at that... to explain this. Angel's situation is so rare and improbable that it means a great deal that THAT was his explanation. He felt like he had a soul before he did. Obviously he didn't feel all the effects of a soul... but he did feel goodness... and a lack of evil.
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After reading the issue I have the impression that, for Lynch, Spike and his nemesis John represent two absolute opposites. John reshaped his soul for evil. Spike molded his demon for good deeds. Both are the ultimate freaks. John - among humans. Spike - among demons.

Because for vampires, the notions of "good" and "evil" trade places. Soul is the moral compass. The majority of people stay on the path of good thanks to it. Yet there are freaks - very few - who can defy the moral compass. They become serial killers. Like Spike's nemesis. Demon's essense within vampires is the opposite of soul essense. Demon is an amoral compass. The majority of demons stay evil thanks to it. But there are freaks - very few - who can defy the amoral compass. Like Spike does.
 
S
StarSlayer
[No message]
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svp
I love your post. So true.
Gum Gnome33
Gum Gnome33
This is exactly what I've been thinking. Nicely said
Pre-soul, I think there were moments where I can see Spike thinking he's good, or at least trying to be good. For me though, I can't say Spike always thought he was good pre-soul because I see him as struggling to figure that out, especially in s5 and s6. But, I think maybe on some level he thought he was good because he didn't automatically become "Spike" when he was sired. He was still William for a while. The William who cared about his mother, truly loved Drusilla, and so on. And I think this side of Spike was good, honest, kind, genuine, and loving. It was the side that struggled with the demon when Spike fell in love with Buffy, which later allowed him to want to get his soul back and control the demon. That's how I see it anyways. 🙂
 
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