Spuffy Fans and Season Six

[Flannen]

I was just aimlessly thinking, now that it's the Easter holidays and I can, about Spuffy fans and the nature of the Spuffy relationship during season six.

I was just wondering how Spuffy fans view that part of the relationship. I know it's been discussed in various different threads over the years but I'm still left wondering. As fans of Spuffy, how do you reconcile yourself to that stage in their relationship? Is it a relationship or is it just sex? (And don't split hairs, you know what I mean by that 😛) Are there parts of it that you deem your 'favourite scenes' etc?

I ask, merely because I can see it being a difficult thing to be a fan off, given all the negative connotations that tend to go along with it, and just wonder how it fits in with your love of the 'ship.

Do you see it as part of one relationship or separate to season 7? Do you see it negatively and find it to be a part of their relationship that disappoints you? Or have a fondness towards it because its where it started?

And before anyone thinks I'm up to anything 😉 I am genuinely asking because I was thinking about it earlier. I'm not picking fights and I'm not criticising, just pondering. I also decided to put it in here over The Back Steps because it's not exactly a celebratory thread 🙂

 

[faeriegrrl27]

For me, at least, Spuffy in seasons 5-7 are each different. And I *do* really like the Spuffy season 6 relationship because it is so... weird.

I was not at all disappointed with how Spuffy s6 turned out. Everything seemed completely natural to me, and I think it was necessary to get to the beauty of s7. Buffy was back, and Spike was the only one Buffy felt comfortable talking about her issues with. It was almost like he was another part of her ("I can be alone with you"). They really seemed to share everything, if you ask me. And at first, yes, I do think it was about the sex. At least for Buffy. But it escalated from there. It became much more about not only Buffy finding her "darkness" as Spike called it, but Spike finding his "lightness." That's a factor that people don't really seem to discuss. Spike, to me, became less dark. He smiled more, joked more, took genuine interest in Buffy and, in his own way, the rest of the Scoobies. So they both transformed each other in a totally unexpected way.

Although the relationship was destructive to Buffy, it helped her grow, and it was necessary for her. Furthermore, it helped Spike grow. I love their dynamic. How they go from friends, to sex buddies, to friends again (until Seeing Red that is). The closeness that they shared is what enabled them to be totally open to each other in s7. I personally don't need to reconcile the season, because I already see it as a great part of their relationship development.

Final word: Spuffy is brilliant in all seasons, and s6 is no exception. It was necessary, natural, and enjoyable to watch.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I was just aimlessly thinking, now that it's the Easter holidays and I can, about Spuffy fans and the nature of the Spuffy relationship during season six.

I was just wondering how Spuffy fans view that part of the relationship. I know it's been discussed in various different threads over the years but I'm still left wondering. As fans of Spuffy, how do you reconcile yourself to that stage in their relationship? Is it a relationship or is it just sex? (And don't split hairs, you know what I mean by that 😛) Are there parts of it that you deem your 'favourite scenes' etc?

How does Easter remind you of Spuffy, lol? The eggs that Spike hid in As You Were?

Personally, I'm endlessly fascinated by their relationship in S6. Buffy's taking out her self-loathing on Spike, and Spike's utter devotion to her...it's perfectly tragic. Buffy's attraction to Spike caused her so much shame - and what was it Joss said? Buffy's more interesting when she's crying, lol.

How do I reconcile it? Spike and Buffy using each other, you mean?The AR? Well, I tell myself that Buffy was chronically depressed and Spike was without a soul.

Is it a relationship or just sex? I think it's a little of both. It was clear that they relied on each other, and needed each other in a way. Was it healthy? No, definitely not. But Buffy clearly found a kind of peace with Spike, an escape. And that was what she needed at that time. Spike has always been there for her, no matter in what capacity.

One of my all-time favorite episode of the entire series is Dead Things. I'm fascinated by Buffy's actions in that episode, and Spike's reactions to them. She fantasizes about him in her bed, yet tells him she can't love him. He'd rather let her beat him a pulp before he'd allow her to ruin her life by turning herself him. His inability to understand morality, the hand-cuffs issue...boy, I could go on about this ep for hours.

I ask, merely because I can see it being a difficult thing to be a fan off, given all the negative connotations that tend to go along with it, and just wonder how it fits in with your love of the 'ship.

Well, not to bring other 'ships into this, but they all had their dark times. Bangel Season 2 is almost as difficult for me to deal with as Season 6 Spuffy is.

Do you see it as part of one relationship or separate to season 7? Do you see it negatively and find it to be a part of their relationship that disappoints you? Or have a fondness towards it because its where it started?

I see Spuffy as a an evolution that took years to complete. Evert part is important to the place that eventually made it too. There were stages. Season 6 was one of them. No, I do not see it negatively, nor do I view this stage as disappointing. And I am certainly not "fond" of it, lol. I just see it as.... inevitable, I guess. Buffy was angry, depressed, and needy. Spike was there. So yeah...

The incredible thing about our 'ship is the scope of it. Spike and Buffy started as enemies, developed into lovers, evolved into friends, and finally fell in love. They had to go through Hell together to emerge together stronger in the Light.

And before anyone thinks I'm up to anything 😉 I am genuinely asking because I was thinking about it earlier. I'm not picking fights and I'm not criticising, just pondering. I also decided to put it in here over The Back Steps because it's not exactly a celebratory thread 🙂

Nah, I know you're just curious. I've asked similar questions about Bangel.

 

[white avenger]

The Spuffy relationship in Season 6 was sheer, animal passion, with none of the gentleness and tender moments (or at least we never saw any) associated with anything even vaguely resembling romance. It was violence, sweat, blood, and adrenalin, with liberal amounts of pain and anger stirred in to spice up the mixture. It was abuse and probably a more than a little bit of humiliation. And there are those who would say that it culminated in a man trying to rape the woman he claimed to love. It was, to use a single word description, bad.

And it was quite possibly the main thing that kept Buffy alive through the season, because, for a very long time. her nights with Spike were the only times when she actually felt anything. Without Spuffy, to quote the great John Wayne, "(Buffy) might have been walking around, but inside, (she) was as dead as a beaver hat." Spike and the relationship that he shared with Buffy in Season 6 brought her back to life after Willow and the Scoobies brought her back to existence. And Buffy, and the relationship that she shared with Spike, provided the catalyst that he needed to regain his soul. So something good came out of something bad in Season 6, and it's name was...SPUFFY.

 

[Flannen]

How does Easter remind you of Spuffy, lol? The eggs that Spike hid in As You Were?

lol, no more along the lines of I have time to think about stuff not work related!

Personally, I'm endlessly fascinated by their relationship in S6. Buffy's taking out her self-loathing on Spike, and Spike's utter devotion to her...it's perfectly tragic. Buffy's attraction to Spike caused her so much shame - and what was it Joss said? Buffy's more interesting when she's crying, lol.

I can see what you mean here about it being tragic and that season six, despite the negativity, was still so multi-faceted that it made it interesting.

How do I reconcile it? Spike and Buffy using each other, you mean?The AR? Well, I tell myself that Buffy was chronically depressed and Spike was without a soul.

Just the whole 'thing' as a whole. And actually, I wasn't thinking about the AR at all which maybe I should have been more specific about, more about the using each other, yeah.

Is it a relationship or just sex? I think it's a little of both. It was clear that they relied on each other, and needed each other in a way. Was it healthy? No, definitely not. But Buffy clearly found a kind of peace with Spike, an escape. And that was what she needed at that time. Spike has always been there for her, no matter in what capacity.

Does that help to...justify (not the exact word I'm looking for but it'll do) the bad side of it then? Because it was an escape and actually in some weird way was what she needed? Again, not attacking here, just clarifying.

Well, not to bring other 'ships into this, but they all had their dark times. Bangel Season 2 is almost as difficult for me to deal with as Season 6 Spuffy is.

While I understand the natural instinct to defend a ship in comparison to another, there's actually no need to bring in any other relationship here. Like I said in my OP, I'm not criticising. This thread doesn't have the 'how can you like this ship when all this stuff happens', I'm not questioning anyone's morals here lol. I really am just curious as to how a love for ship makes it through or can deal with the rough parts. And, again, totally aware every ship has them but its more extreme with Spuffy, for me at least.

On a side note, its why I deliberated for a while as to whether to post or not. There was the possibility that immediately people would think I was asking this from a Bangel perspective and its not borne out of that at all. It's a general 'shipping question that fits with a relationship like Spuffy. It might be difficult to accept but it's true! 😉

I see Spuffy as a an evolution that took years to complete. Evert part is important to the place that eventually made it too. There were stages. Season 6 was one of them. No, I do not see it negatively, nor do I view this stage as disappointing. And I am certainly not "fond" of it, lol. I just see it as.... inevitable, I guess. Buffy was angry, depressed, and needy. Spike was there. So yeah...

The incredible thing about our 'ship is the scope of it. Spike and Buffy started as enemies, developed into lovers, evolved into friends, and finally fell in love. They had to go through Hell together to emerge together stronger in the Light.

This seems to be something I've got from the few of you that have posted. You can reconcile it, if you need to, because it's one of those 'you had to go there to come back' kind of things and despite all that happened, they still had what they had.

Are there any Spuffies out there that can say they honestly do find it hard to 'fit' season six in with everything else they feel about the 'ship?

 

[StarSlayer]

I was just wondering how Spuffy fans view that part of the relationship. I know it's been discussed in various different threads over the years but I'm still left wondering. As fans of Spuffy, how do you reconcile yourself to that stage in their relationship? Is it a relationship or is it just sex? (And don't split hairs, you know what I mean by that 😛) Are there parts of it that you deem your 'favourite scenes' etc?

I ask, merely because I can see it being a difficult thing to be a fan off, given all the negative connotations that tend to go along with it, and just wonder how it fits in with your love of the 'ship.

Do you see it as part of one relationship or separate to season 7? Do you see it negatively and find it to be a part of their relationship that disappoints you? Or have a fondness towards it because its where it started?

Season 6 made me completely sail the Spuffy ship, thanks to their scenes together in "After-Life." It is still one of my favorite episodes because the performances, especially by SMG and JM, are brilliant. I also love their scenes in "Life Serial," OMWF, and "Smashed." Their scene together in "Hell's Bells" is also one of my faves. Oh, and their back-step scene in "Flooded." 🙂

For me, the entire Spuffy's relationship in s6 isn't just about sex. They had a lot of moments together before becoming physically intimate that showed they were close. Everything was leading up to their kiss in OMWF and then to "Smashed." It wasn't until "Dead Things" that Buffy realized she was using Spike. I think that's when their relationship really became just about sex because Buffy still continued to sleep with Spike after realizing she was using him. I'm not saying Spike's an innocent party in all this. I'm just keeping the focus on Buffy because she was the one who went to him, and I know I'll write an extremely long post if I try to explain the complexities of s6, lol!

When it comes to Spuffy, s6 ends with their relationship pretty much broken. Buffy using Spike, the bathroom scene, the end of their friendship, and the loss of trust between them. It's not great seeing the couple I fell in love with in the beginning of the season to now be so far away from what they had in "After-Life." I think that's why some have a hard time liking this ship again. But, for me, their story doesn't end there. And that's why I see s6 as part of Spuffy's one relationship. Yes, it's an extremely ugly stage in their relationship, I think from "Dead Things" onward. But, I don't think I would have loved their relationship in s7 as much if it wasn't for season 6. They've gone through so much torture, pain, and suffering (of sorts) together and away from each other. And to then see them regain that friendship, rebuild that trust, learn to forgive, experience and feel romantic love (yes, you heard me 😛) throughout s7 is phenomenal.

For me, Spuffy is all about their journey together, which includes everything in season 6. I don't really view s6 negatively, since it is one of my favorite seasons, although I do wish certain things didn't happen. Yet, the ugly parts in s6 lead to beautiful moments in s7. So, I accept what happened in s6 when it comes to Spuffy because it's only part of their story. 🙂

---------- Post added at 05:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:27 PM ----------

Are there any Spuffies out there that can say they honestly do find it hard to 'fit' season six in with everything else they feel about the 'ship?

For me, not the entire season. It's really only the bathroom scene in my case. At the same time, I've come to terms with this scene, so I don't find it as difficult to fit that scene in with my love for Spuffy anymore.

 

[Tranquillity]

I can't rep at the moment (it's not working for some reason since the server change) but faerie, Joan, WA and Starslayer - I would have repped you all!! Great answers.

I was just aimlessly thinking, now that it's the Easter holidays and I can, about Spuffy fans and the nature of the Spuffy relationship during season six.

I was just wondering how Spuffy fans view that part of the relationship. I know it's been discussed in various different threads over the years but I'm still left wondering. As fans of Spuffy, how do you reconcile yourself to that stage in their relationship? Is it a relationship or is it just sex? (And don't split hairs, you know what I mean by that ) Are there parts of it that you deem your 'favourite scenes' etc?

I ask, merely because I can see it being a difficult thing to be a fan off, given all the negative connotations that tend to go along with it, and just wonder how it fits in with your love of the 'ship.

Do you see it as part of one relationship or separate to season 7? Do you see it negatively and find it to be a part of their relationship that disappoints you? Or have a fondness towards it because its where it started?

I'm still gonna answer though...

I love season six. I love Spike and Buffy in season six. They are two drowning people who are trying to grab onto the other to save themselves. It's a recipe for disaster but by the end of season six they realise they have to let go, and get swimming on their own or they're not gonna survive. This is compelling storytelling!

We start of the season with Buffy and Spike establishing the groundwork for a "relationship", in a fairly traditional manner. They have an understanding that Buffy can't have with her friends - they pulled her out of heaven. They don't know what it feels like to come back from the dead. We even get a "date" and this all culminates in the truely excellent (yet kinda clichéd) kiss at the end of Once more with Feeling.

And then things change

If you're looking for traditional romance then Spuffy is never gonna be your ship because what comes next is the absolute antithesis of traditional romance. And I for one enjoy watching season six because the spuffy relationship is so different and contradictory. it's not always pleasent but it is facinating. There are so many conflicting feelings going on here - for me, it's not as simple as the oft cited "Buffy boned Spike to feel" explanation. There is so much more going on beneath the surface. It's messy, it's gritty, it's sexy, it's dirty, it's secret, it's mixed-up and it's confusing. The confusing thing is important because we, the audience, we feel Buffy's confusion right there with her throughout the entire thing. There is attraction and at the same time loathing, there is affection and violence, there is like and lust. he is a vampire without an soul and she is the vampire slayer... (side bar: this is why I think season six is so polarising - some people ride with the confusion while others don't enjoy the sensation and resist it)

And then things change

The AR is the absolute low-point for Spike and Buffy. She kicks him across the room and he's disgusted in himself. There seems to be no hope. But, and this is the beauty of Spuffy, they both have an epiphany - they part company. He goes to get a soul, she decides to accept that she is alive, stop lusting after death (of which Spike is quite symbolic) and embraces Dawn (a symbol of her humanity if ever there was one). Season six, for a dark, dark season has an incredibly hopeful ending!!

Which of course leads to all the lovely goodness of season seven...

 

[faeriegrrl27]

The AR is the absolute low-point for Spike and Buffy. She kicks him across the room and he's disgusted in himself. There seems to be no hope. But, and this is the beauty of Spuffy, they both have an epiphany - they part company. He goes to get a soul, she decides to accept that she is alive, stop lusting after death (of which Spike is quite symbolic) and embraces Dawn (a symbol of her humanity if ever there was one). Season six, for a dark, dark season has an incredibly hopeful ending!!

Excellent point! One of the things I love most about s6 is how everyone only finds themselves when they're parted from romantic love. It's not just Spuffy: Xander and Willow find hope in each other despite their loved ones being dead or alienated, Anya and Giles have their moment, Buffy opens her eyes to Dawn and the world, and Spike really grows into a relationship with himself.

Specifically to Spuffy, again I have to say that it was necessary. They *had* to be codependent so that they could *become* independent, thus leading to the new love they had in s7.

 

[prophecygrrl]

ooh, there was that really good Slayage article by Rhonda Wilcox on Buffy and Spike in Season 6. It approaches their relationship on a thematic/metaphorical level:

http://slayageonline.com/essays/slayage5/wilcox.htm

Starslayer posted it for all us Spuffies a while back on the Back Steps. 😀 It's a little long, but it might give you some insight into why a lot of Spuffies find their Season 6 relationship fascinating. Here's some passages, whoo! 😀

As for Buffy herself, as Spike notes, "The sun sets, and she appears." The Slayer, who fights the forces of darkness, is, like the vampires, a liminal character, on the edge between light and dark. To fight for the light, she must move through the darkness; and, after her dream encounter with the first of all Slayers and her actual encounter with Dracula, she agrees that, as they say, her "power is rooted in darkness" ("Buffy vs. Dracula," 5001)"”i.e., her connection to the unconscious. In the context of the musical episode in which Spike says "the sun sets, and she appears," we are also aware of the fact that he means she has come to him again (though at this point their relationship is not actively sexual); in her unhappy state after her own return from death, she is drawn to his darkness. In sum, at this stage Buffy's desire for Spike and her desire for death are equivalent.

Buffy and Spike, who have each physically died, have access to the unconscious, and their love-making is powerful"”but sex and death are not enough. Spike tells Buffy that he knows her, that she is like him"”and he is right; he knows her dark side in both its strengths and weaknesses. But he does not know all of her; and even more significantly, he does not know all of himself, any more than she knows all of him or of herself. Whether or not there is backsliding or a slow, straight climb up, I expect to see more from both Spike and Buffy. The quest for self-knowledge is part of life and growth; as Joss Whedon says, "I think of Buffy as life [. . .] Life doesn't stop [. . .] We're always changing and growing" (Kaveney cover). And as Ursula K. Le Guin says, "the shadow is the guide [. . .] of the journey of self-knowledge, to adulthood, to the light. 'Lucifer' means the one who carries the light" (61). To the degree that we can live with the failure, face the darkness, and risk the pain, then we can find hope, faith, and maybe even love in the words, "Every night I save you."

But from a shippy perspective, I have to admit that shipping Spuffy can be very hard in Season 6. A big part of that is because IMO, it challenges traditional ideas of love. It certainly challenges my own, at least. I have to echo everyone else and say that what's great about Spuffy is what it leads to, and that's the rebuilding of trust in Season 7.

At the same time, Season 6 Spuffy isn't necessarily something to be written off for what comes later, either. I think a lot of us ship Spuffy precisely because it's difficult to deal with or to categorize. It's hardly romance in Season 6, but it's not devoid of love either- Spike's side of it is almost entirely based on love (albeit a very flawed love). There were some parts where I think the writers went too far (specifically, the attempted rape, since it was basically a plot device and they didn't deal with it nearly well enough if they were going to go there...grr. 😡 /rant), but all in all, I think pairing them in Season 6 is pretty smart thematically. It's interesting at least, for what it says about destruction and love.

 

[zobothehobo]

I'm not going to repeat what others have said in less eloquent words because that would be pointless... but what I have to add is that I love Spuffy season 6 so much because it challenges the traditional views of love. Because it's not the fairytale romance story. Season 6 was a low point for everyone, and for Buffy and Spike, they came out of it better than they were when they went in it... and a large reason for that is because they had each other to grow from. Out of the main characters... Buffy and Spike are the only two that come out of season 6 better than they were when they went in. Tara dies, Willow tries to destroy the world, Xander leaves Anya at the alter, Anya becomes a vengeance demon again, Buffy gets her will to live back and embraces her guardianship of Dawn, and Spike gets his soul back. In the end, the relationship wasn't all that destructive, but rather constructive. Sometimes the hardest things, the darkest times are what you need the most, as in this case.

 

[prophecygrrl]

A long time ago I was reading a Whedonesque comment thread, and a user called Lirazel posted a really excellent explanation of why they love Season 6 Spuffy. Anywho, I remembered it after seeing this thread and I just hunted it down with Google:

But [Season 6] works for me, and masterfully. Spike is death. Literally. When she doesn't want to be alive again, of course she's going to be drawn to him, especially since he's the only person in her life who isn't putting pressure on her to be okay all the time. (Not that he doesn't end up putting a different kind of pressure on her, but it's not that kind.) On the other hand, Spike's always been so vivid, with a definite joie de vivre, so full of life and emotions: he just brims with them. And by the very vividness of his personality, he forces people to react to him in one way or another. Of course there's nothing healthy about their relationship that season, but it's so realistic to me: it's destructive, suicidal behavior married to grasping at absolutely anything that can make her feel. It's her flirtation with death paired up with her last gasp for life. I think it's genius.

I agree with the author here very much. 😀

 

[StarSlayer]

A long time ago I was reading a Whedonesque comment thread, and a user called Lirazel posted a really excellent explanation of why they love Season 6 Spuffy. Anywho, I remembered it after seeing this thread and I just hunted it down with Google:

I agree with the author here very much. 😀

Thanks for sharing that! 😀 I agree with the author too. And I think the balcony scene in "Dead Things" is a prime example of how Buffy flirts with death in s6, which is resembled by Spike there.

 

[jamtammie]

I like the relationship between spike and buffy but sometimes I think they are using each other. I have been loving it though because I wanted them to get together

 

[InsaneMystic]

I love (but don't like, hope that makes sense 😉) S6 Spuffy for the simple fact that it's one of the very few brutally cold, hard, realistic displays of how romance works, totally missing the fake softening lense that's usual in movies and TV (and horridly thickly laid on in another ship in the Buffyverse *cough*).

What makes me love Spuffy absolutely depends on the pain and abuse of S6, because it's the wonderfully empowering message of hope that you can outgrown romance and arrive at love. Spuffy is the "maturation ship", I can't help but love it for that.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

The Spuffy relationship in Season 6 was sheer, animal passion, with none of the gentleness and tender moments (or at least we never saw any) associated with anything even vaguely resembling romance. It was violence, sweat, blood, and adrenalin, with liberal amounts of pain and anger stirred in to spice up the mixture. It was abuse and probably a more than a little bit of humiliation. And there are those who would say that it culminated in a man trying to rape the woman he claimed to love. It was, to use a single word description, bad.

And it was quite possibly the main thing that kept Buffy alive through the season, because, for a very long time. her nights with Spike were the only times when she actually felt anything. Without Spuffy, to quote the great John Wayne, "(Buffy) might have been walking around, but inside, (she) was as dead as a beaver hat." Spike and the relationship that he shared with Buffy in Season 6 brought her back to life after Willow and the Scoobies brought her back to existence. And Buffy, and the relationship that she shared with Spike, provided the catalyst that he needed to regain his soul. So something good came out of something bad in Season 6, and it's name was...SPUFFY.

As usual, you've said it better than I ever could, lol. Especially like what you said regarding the AR being the catalyst for the restoring of his soul. This is problematic if you're doing a Buffy-centric reading of their relationship, but for us Spike fans, it was sort of the 'silver lining' of that awful experience, I guess.

lol, no more along the lines of I have time to think about stuff not work related!

Oh ok, lol.

I can see what you mean here about it being tragic and that season six, despite the negativity, was still so multi-faceted that it made it interesting.

Exactly. I agree that Spuffy Season 6 is all kinds of bad. But I'm typically attracted to dark story lines, so it's right up my alley.

Does that help to...justify (not the exact word I'm looking for but it'll do) the bad side of it then? Because it was an escape and actually in some weird way was what she needed? Again, not attacking here, just clarifying.

Not really to justify it, more like to understand it. I know why Spike did what he did and I know why Buffy did what she did. They were both bad to each other and they both paid. And for the record, I do not excuse Spike what what he tried to do to Buffy. Spike is my favorite character, but first and foremost I am a Buffy girl. I love her to death. There was a time (years ago) that I hated Spike, believe it or not (or I tried to, in a misguided attempt to convince myself of the fact). The AR is hard to reconcile.

I should have been more clear. Not so much what Buffy needed - it was more about what she wanted - which was Spike, and I agree, it wasn't good for her. What we want is not always what's best for us. It made her feel ashamed and confused, which is never a good thing, and it made him feel used and worthless.

There was no excuse for how they treated each other, but when times are tough sometimes we do things we are not so proud of. I guess what I'm saying is that I do not justify the "bad" part of their relationship because, in the end, it led to good. All I'm saying is that there were stages to Spuffy and I found (still find) it all fascinating.

While I understand the natural instinct to defend a ship in comparison to another, there's actually no need to bring in any other relationship here. Like I said in my OP, I'm not criticising. This thread doesn't have the 'how can you like this ship when all this stuff happens', I'm not questioning anyone's morals here lol. I really am just curious as to how a love for ship makes it through or can deal with the rough parts. And, again, totally aware every ship has them but its more extreme with Spuffy, for me at least.

I don't think Spuffy has any more extreme bad parts than any other Buffyverse 'ship. For instance, Xanya had the whole Xander leaving Anya at the altar, and Weslah had a similar dynamic with the whole dysfunctional sexual relationship thing, and Bangel, had Angelus...

You're right, though. Spike and Buffy have been through Hell together.

Hence what makes it all the more special the place that they ended up.

On a side note, its why I deliberated for a while as to whether to post or not. There was the possibility that immediately people would think I was asking this from a Bangel perspective and its not borne out of that at all. It's a general 'shipping question that fits with a relationship like Spuffy. It might be difficult to accept but it's true! 😉

Hey, I believe you! No worries.

This seems to be something I've got from the few of you that have posted. You can reconcile it, if you need to, because it's one of those 'you had to go there to come back' kind of things and despite all that happened, they still had what they had.

Yes, many of us do believe that. I think you understand us better than you think 😉

A long time ago I was reading a Whedonesque comment ...

Wow, that's good. I completely agree.

In hating life, Buffy seeks death, in the form of Spike, who, in the end, brings her to life. Love that trademark Joss-esque irony.

Just when I think I've figured everything out, this wicked brilliant series surprises me again.

*drags herself off to work on research paper*

 

[KellGreen]

It made her feel ashamed and confused, which is never a good thing,

I was wondering what other's thoughts on "Gone" are? In that, she seems completely unashamed of being with Spike when she knows she can't be seen? Does she feel ashamed by the acts themselves or because she thinks she should because of what everyone else will think/say about it? As in, is it her own shame, or something caused from other's external judgement of her choices?