Spuffy: S6 Style

[Wishing Oceans]

As I've been reading through 'ship wars, I've noticed how the biggest arguments are always on Spuffy, S6. (In fact they usually completely ignore S7 😀 ) So, this thread is basically me going over the entire S6 Spuffy relationship.

In Bargaining Part 2, Spike and Buffy first meet. She is quiet, but Spike seems to understand everything that she's been through. He fixed her hands, and gently talked to her. Buffy seemed to feel his compassion, and responded with relatively calm behavior. When Buffy's "best friends" appear, she automatically feels hassled and pressured.

Continuing along to Flooded, the two became closer. Spike was often the only person she felt comfortable talking to, and the only one she could act like herself around. ("Why are you always around when I'm miserable?") She confided in him that around her friends she always tried to act happy and normal so they wouldn't worry, but unfortunately THAT made them worry even more. Continuing to Life Serial, Buffy stated that "the only person I can even stand to be around is a neutered vampire who cheats at kitten poker!" They definitely could be considered friends, and one could say that Spike knew and understood Buffy more than her friends did, and that Buffy enjoyed spending time with Spike more than her "actual friends." In Tabula Rasa, it was obvious that they had a connection ("Ready Randy?" "Ready Joan." ) Spike (obviously) said that he didn't want to bite her, and Buffy said that she didn't want to stake him. They also immediately protected each other, no thought involved. That's what I like to call the "friendship stage" of their S6 relationship.

S6 was definitely the "growing up" stage for the SG. Although since Buffy is the slayer we (Or rather the Bangelers 😀) like to say that Buffy was extremely mature and grown up already, I wouldn't say (and neither would Joss) that she or any of the other SG members really grew up until now.

Before continuing on with the Spuffy, I'll talk a bit about the SG. One part of growing up is expanding your horizon, and a lot of the time it involves drifting away from your friends. This year was a big year for all the SG members to kind of discover themselves with their significant other. Xander and Anya had their story of an almost marriage that ended with tears. Willow and Tara had their own journey of breaking up and making up, with some addictions and mind violations along the way. All the people had their own main storylines, and the SG definitely has their separations as they each discovered how they could define themselves, in many cases without having to define themselves through other people like they used to.

Now back to Spuffy. As I've forementioned, a big part of growing up is discovering who you really are. Now, hold onto that thought, because I'm going to go on a bit of a different topic for a few minutes.

OK, so many people define S6 Spuffy as a purely horrible, sexual relationship. Now, as I've previously stated, that's not true. It's so much more than that.

Another common argument is that Spike was trying to drag Buffy into the same grey area that he was in. ("You try to be with them, but you always end up in the dark. With me." -Dead Things) But I don't believe that that's strictly true. Alright, so remember how I said that a big part of growing up was discovering who you are? Well, I'm pretty sure that that is what was happening there. Spike was helping Buffy explore the darker part of her nature, the darker part of herself. The slayer power is rooted in darkness. During their sexual relationship, Buffy was discovering the darker part of herself, and the darker part of being a slayer, what it really meant to be a slayer.

Although (unfortunately) this statement is almost always said by people who are considered from humanity's perspective to be evil, I think that the saying "it's not about right. It's not about wrong. It's about power." really fits what it means to be a slayer. Good and evil are all from a perspecive, and if coming from the opinions of both humans AND demons, it would appear that the slayer is not a being of good or evil, but an orchestrator of power. Being a slayer is not all about purity and actions for the sake of "good" (from humanity's perspective) but rather more about killing demons, not protecting innocents. Many slayers, for example the First Slayer, were creatures that acted more like other creatures of the night.("No friends! We are alone!" -Restless)

With that in mind, in this season Buffy learned more about herself and her power, mostly by doing many, ahem, experiments with Spike. In the previous seasons Buffy mostly repressed any feelings or desires that she had if she thought they were "wrong" but in this season she stopped the repressment and began acting for herself, the way she wanted to act. With Spike, she was able to expand her knowledge on herself. 😀

Skipping forward a bit, I must come to rest on the attempted rape in Seeing Red. IMO, that was an unfortunate misreading of signals. Spike, after seeing Buffy's hurt and jealous reaction to Spikes time with Anya, assumed that she still wanted him, but needed him to initiate it this time. He didn't understand that their relationship had boundaries. Although we often forget, Spike in this season was soulless. The soul (in the verse) is like a mental compass, a tool for determining and undertanding the thin line between right and wrong. Without his soul, Spike couldn't really begin to be able to understand the can/ should in their relationship. One could say that from not having a soul to having a soul is like the journey from a child to an adult, being specific towards adolescence. Even more specific, it's quite similar to the brain of a child going from concrete thinking to abstract thinking. In the beginning, they only can believe what they can see, but once they become abstract thinkers they can understand things that they CAN'T see.

Merely for support purposes, I would like to say that rapists rape for a feeling of power and control that they get from degrading others. Spike has specifically said many times that one of the things he loved most about her was her strength. I definitely do not see Spike trying to take her strength and power away from her. I'm not trying to excuse his actions, but he assumed that that was what she still wanted. Also, Spike is essentially a poet. Jane Espenson said "when he falls in love he has the heart of a poet". He's very romantic and loyal, definitely not the characteristics of a real rapist.

Continuing on, the Spuffy S6 sexual relationship WAS quite destructive, no doubt about that. Both sides were hurting each other greatly. One event that is quite similar to the AR, if not worse then the AR since it was an act made for a feeling a power and control, was the beating in Dead Things. Buffy beat the crap out of Spike, put all her weight and pain on him instead. Buffy also actually raped him in Gone. Not attempted rape, but rape. Spike told her he didn't want to have sex with her if there wasn't any love in the relationship. He told her to get dressed and leave if he couldn't have all of her (body AND soul) and what did she do? She sexed him anyway. That constitutes as rape.

This is slightly off- topic, but there are many reasons that we often dismiss Buffy's actions, but hold Spike responsible for everything he does, even though he's soulless. Reason 1, the show is from Buffy's perspective, which means that since Buffy thinks that she's right and he's wrong, we're bound to feel the same. 2, in the show, Buffy is seen as the protagonist, and Spike is portrayed as the antagonist, which generally makes anything the protangonist does "for the greater good." 3, Sex. Or gender, however you want to say it. Buffy's a woman, and Spike's a man. Although it sounds sexist, by nature it's natural for primates like humans to regard women as the lesser sex in terms of power, which makes the actions of a female much more justifiable than that of a male. We often forget that in this show, the women, more specifically Buffy, are the ones with the power. Nobody has EVER defeated Buffy before.

"Look" is also important. It's hard to imagine a pretty petite blond girl as a rapist, or an abuser, or anything physically tortureful like that. On the other side, a strong, male vamp with radioactive hair and a generally bad attitude? He definitely had whatever he got coming for him. (Sarcasm 🙂 )

Moving forward again, we all know how Spike reacted to his actions. He got a soul, and they ALMOST got their "happily ever after." But honestly, who are we kidding, this is Joss Whedon! We are NEVER going to get a "happily ever after" (at least not with a couple we actually WANT to have a happily ever after. If Killow works out, I'll be so pissed. 😀) But I'm happy. The best 'ships are the ones where there's no definite answer, and quite honestly, a reaccuring theme in both shows is the only person you'll ever really have is yourself.

Unlike many others, I actually love S6. Many people see it as disgusting or degrading, but I see it as another level, another piece of the puzzle. Although in the Whedonverse it's often shown to be, sex is not the workings of the devil. It's not even that big a deal, IMO. And neither is crazy, kinky sex that Buffy and Spike enjoyed. Buffy was just learning more about the darkness that's inside her, and everyone else. She was in a more complicated, adult- like relationship, and I'm sure she learned a lot from it. I don't see their actions as gross, but rather as completely passionate, the kind of passion that burns like a fire. Many of the writers have said that Smashed was "the perfect mataphor for their relationship. Passionate, destructive, and probably very painful." They weren't your mom and dad, and I'm very glad about that. Buffy's still a young girl, she doesn't need to settle and have lots of kids already. As said in Restless, "You think you know. What's to come... What you are... You haven't even begun." There's plenty of time for her to have some fun and explore her sexuality. Learn what she likes and doeesn't like. In fact, I almost thought that S7 got TOO sweet and loving, they almost lost their flair and fire. But, as we saw in Chosen, Spike literally gave Buffy back the fire and passion that she had and lost after coming back from he dead.

So, in conclusion, the S6 Spuffy relationship was more than just degrading sex.

Thoughts, everyone? 😀

 

[Kana]

Wowness. First of all kudos and secondly, the rest of the post...

I do believe that Season 6 is about growing up but I'd contend not simply about being more mature but dealing with responsibility.

If we look at Xander. He's about to get married to Anya, and about to embark on a commitment that will shape the rest of his life. That is responsibility. But does he deal with it? Rather confronting the issues that plague him about his impending nuptials, he leaves Anya at the alter. Again Xander's ability to deal with the issue head on brings about consequences.

Willow, while intelligent has been shielded from the extreme negative consequences of magic. Despite warnings from others, she's always kind of got away with it. In Season 6 she almost loses herself to it. Again consequences!

Buffy has had to deal with the harsh realities of everyday life. After being in heaven, Earth feels like hell. Talking to Spike and opening up to him was more that she doesn't consider him a person. I wasn't sure if this is true but it certainly makes sense that she could use something that wasn't a person to escape life. The actual sex with Spike wasn't the issue, it was not dealing with life that was the issue. It was the not being able to reconcile herself with her behaviour that was the issue. I also contend against the idea of simple black and white: it is about self definition and identity. Turning to someone else in time of need is understandable but we have to look in the mirror and live with our actions. That's part of growing up. Whatever the reason we argue that Buffy wasn't able to reconcile herself with these actions, is definitely part of the problem because as I've always said: relationships don't happen in a vacuum. Our circumstances and emotional states will shape and influence them and in turn we see ourselves through them. Because she didn't like what she saw, I trust that it wasn't right for at that time. Others argue it was necessary for her to go through it. Well... self-loathing isn't a mandatory rite of passage and even if we talk about the positive elements it still goes back to 'vacuum love' (please don't misinterpret that lol).

As for understanding about power and darkness: Well this isn't seperate from my point about self definition. I agree that denying the root of a Slayers power can make her weak, but being a Slayer isn't simply about power and darkness. Understanding the source of power and defining yourself through it and relationships becomes tricky and most likely led to her cookie dough conclusion.

The AR scene was both instrumental to Spike's impasse and a powerful statement about possession, power and loss of control. As people have said it is a stark parallel with the scene in Dead Things where Buffy beats him to a pulp. On occasions, even in Season 6 he still fancies himself as a dark 'soul', a big bad. Part of this darkness tempts Buffy yet, one assumes, her light is a beacon for Spike. In amongst the violence and degradation, there is a search for love and an unconscious journey of identity. As equally shocking as the AR was to him so was his own regret. I had to stay consistent that I couldn't judge a soulless vampire by soulled being's standards because of the obvious differences in behaviour. His apparent anger was desperation to find meaning to his emotions. He wasn't angry with Buffy he was angry with himself that he almost raped her, he was angry with himself that it would bother him. She wasn't the only person in the need to reconciling with oneself.

It ties in with the self defeat of Season 6 but also the redefinition. We have to find our way in the cold and uncertainty. Our choices and relationsips don't always work out the way thought they once would. We lose innocence. But is this growin up? Part of it. Rite of passage? Well, is life ever that clear cut? Do we always know we needed to go through the fire to find what we are looking for? That's the beauty and the messiness of s6. It deviates and it challanges and it doesn't apologize for it. It's the pain and asymmtrical tragedy that I love about it and about s6 Spuffy. But understand, there is a difference between appreciating the narrative perspective of the season and talking about 'in the show' moral choices. In short, I loved watching it, but I'd be loath to live it, although some would argue in some respects, maybe at least in the metaphoric sense, I already have.

 

[Eleftheria]

I know life is hard and there are times that we do not wanna face our problems and just disappear. Sometimes we do not feel anything and we just wanna feel sth. I think that is what Buffy did, but she chose a wrong way. She could deal with it. She could go to her friends and tell them that what they did was reckless,stupid and extremely selfish. That bringing her back was the cause of her depression.

Instead she chooses to share those things with someone who she says she hates.(I don't think she hates Spike though...maybe she thinks she hates him because he is another soulless vampire) and then she chooses to have sex with him and used violent methods to do it. She knows that using a person to feel sth and taking advantage of his feelings for her is wrong. It is un-Buffy behaviour. And that bothers her. And it also bothers me a lot.

In Season 6, and that is my personal opinion, I think Spike confuses obsession and lust for the Slayer, with love.I don't really blame him because a soulless vampire cannot understand,perhaps love. Spuffy in S6 is not love. Because my idea of love is sacrifice, unconditional feelings for each other. Violence and taking advantage of each other to get pleasure from it is not love.Feeiling guilty,dirty,humiliated is not love.

I feel very sorry for Buffy and I think that in S6 we see a dramatic change in Buffy's personality. For 5 years she has been a person whom I personally liked very much,admired and found a few common things with her. I can not blame her in S6 completely cause she is going through sth noone can ever imagine.

And btw, Joss chose a really dark and sadistic way to show us "growing up". Growing up is not all depression and darkness. Losing yourself and become what you hate. Many times people stand up and face difficulties, yes they make mistakes but they don't have to go through a change of personality for that.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

I'm gonna take my stand and say he's bad for Buffy in season 6. And that's the reason I don't like them. It's not because I belive she is meant to be with Angel, or because I don't like Spike, it's because I love Buffy so much, and he had hurted her so bad back then. She was so lost, and so confused, and he didn't helped her. He didn't pulled her where she is susposed to be, in the light, with her friends, and family, he pushed her back in the darknes because he didn't want to be alone. In my eyes he was selfish. And about season 7, there I see them like friends, nothing more.

 

[ubi4soft]

Buffy's bad for Spike in S6. She's a hypocrite especially between As You Were (tell me you love me) and Entropy (It is love. To you). If she really was feeling bad about it, after the beating in the alley (Dead Things) knowing it was wrong, why didn't she stop their sex meetings? Depression or not, she was the souled one.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Wow, great post wishing oceans!

As I've been reading through 'ship wars, I've noticed how the biggest arguments are always on Spuffy, S6. (In fact they usually completely ignore S7 😀 ) So, this thread is basically me going over the entire S6 Spuffy relationship.

Very true - most Bangels detest the Spuffy S6 relationship, and I dare say, often seem to misinterpret its purpose, deny its importance, and misunderstand its meaning.

In Bargaining Part 2, Spike and Buffy first meet. She is quiet, but Spike seems to understand everything that she's been through.

Interesting continuity glitch here: Spike implies he knows what Buffy is going through because he also dug himself out of his own grave, implying he had a proper burial - yet this is contested in "Not Fade Away" when Spike says, in response to the bartender's comment about his funeral, "Well, I never had a proper one."

Continuing along to Flooded, the two became closer. Spike was often the only person she felt comfortable talking to, and the only one she could act like herself around. ("Why are you always around when I'm miserable?")

True that. Spike is the only person who has compltely accepted her for who she is, in the good times and the bad.

She confided in him that around her friends she always tried to act happy and normal so they wouldn't worry, but unfortunately THAT made them worry even more. Continuing to Life Serial, Buffy stated that "the only person I can even stand to be around is a neutered vampire who cheats at kitten poker!" They definitely could be considered friends, and one could say that Spike knew and understood Buffy more than her friends did, and that Buffy enjoyed spending time with Spike more than her "actual friends." In Tabula Rasa, it was obvious that they had a connection ("Ready Randy?" "Ready Joan." ) Spike (obviously) said that he didn't want to bite her, and Buffy said that she didn't want to stake him. They also immediately protected each other, no thought involved. That's what I like to call the "friendship stage" of their S6 relationship.

Great points about 'Tabula Rasa." I agree with your comment on their 'friendship stage.' This episode - if anything - proves the inate connection and almost ingrained trust between the two, despite having no pre-concieved notions about each other or about the past. She chooses Spike out of the rest of the gang to have her back when she ventures out of the Magic Box.

S6 was definitely the "growing up" stage for the SG. Although since Buffy is the slayer we (Or rather the Bangelers 😀) like to say that Buffy was extremely mature and grown up already, I wouldn't say (and neither would Joss) that she or any of the other SG members really grew up until now.

Agreed. Joss said the Big Bad of Season 6 was "life"; making mistakes, picking yourself back up, and learning from them. Moving on the next stage.

OK, so many people define S6 Spuffy as a purely horrible, sexual relationship. Now, as I've previously stated, that's not true. It's so much more than that.

*nods*

Another common argument is that Spike was trying to drag Buffy into the same grey area that he was in. ("You try to be with them, but you always end up in the dark. With me." -Dead Things) But I don't believe that that's strictly true. Alright, so remember how I said that a big part of growing up was discovering who you are? Well, I'm pretty sure that that is what was happening there. Spike was helping Buffy explore the darker part of her nature, the darker part of herself. The slayer power is rooted in darkness. During their sexual relationship, Buffy was discovering the darker part of herself, and the darker part of being a slayer, what it really meant to be a slayer.

Yes, YES. You hit the nail on the head. A big theme of Season 5 was Buffy coming to terms with the "darkness" inside of her; Death is the Slayers "gift", her identity as a "killer", battling her inner demons, etc. Seaosn 6 expanded on this. Spike was an extension of her inner demons, her Shadow, or for lack of a better term, her foil. He represented everything she hated and wanted. She needed to battle her desire for him in order to develop. As the saying goes, not everything we want is good for us 🙂

Although (unfortunately) this statement is almost always said by people who are considered from humanity's perspective to be evil, I think that the saying "it's not about right. It's not about wrong. It's about power." really fits what it means to be a slayer. Good and evil are all from a perspecive, and if coming from the opinions of both humans AND demons, it would appear that the slayer is not a being of good or evil, but an orchestrator of power. Being a slayer is not all about purity and actions for the sake of "good" (from humanity's perspective) but rather more about killing demons, not protecting innocents. Many slayers, for example the First Slayer, were creatures that acted more like other creatures of the night.("No friends! We are alone!" -Restless)

Great analysis. Buffy hated herself and was using her power to control and use Spike in order to indirectly punish herself.

With that in mind, in this season Buffy learned more about herself and her power, mostly by doing many, ahem, experiments with Spike. In the previous seasons Buffy mostly repressed any feelings or desires that she had if she thought they were "wrong" but in this season she stopped the repressment and began acting for herself, the way she wanted to act. With Spike, she was able to expand her knowledge on herself. 😀

YES. *squeels* I couldn't have said it better myself.

Skipping forward a bit, I must come to rest on the attempted rape in Seeing Red. IMO, that was an unfortunate misreading of signals. Spike, after seeing Buffy's hurt and jealous reaction to Spikes time with Anya, assumed that she still wanted him, but needed him to initiate it this time. He didn't understand that their relationship had boundaries. Although we often forget, Spike in this season was soulless. The soul (in the verse) is like a mental compass, a tool for determining and undertanding the thin line between right and wrong. Without his soul, Spike couldn't really begin to be able to understand the can/ should in their relationship. One could say that from not having a soul to having a soul is like the journey from a child to an adult, being specific towards adolescence. Even more specific, it's quite similar to the brain of a child going from concrete thinking to abstract thinking. In the beginning, they only can believe what they can see, but once they become abstract thinkers they can understand things that they CAN'T see.

Again, not to sound like a broken record, but I agree. Souless Spike lacked a moral compass, empathy, and therefore did not know the difference between right and wrong. As awful as the attempted rape was, it was pivotal to his journey to become a better man. If the incident hadn't happened, I don't think he would have went looking for his soul and in the end, became the Champion he did. Sometimes out of violence comes renewal.

Merely for support purposes, I would like to say that rapists rape for a feeling of power and control that they get from degrading others. Spike has specifically said many times that one of the things he loved most about her was her strength. I definitely do not see Spike trying to take her strength and power away from her. I'm not trying to excuse his actions, but he assumed that that was what she still wanted. Also, Spike is essentially a poet. Jane Espenson said "when he falls in love he has the heart of a poet". He's very romantic and loyal, definitely not the characteristics of a real rapist.

Well, it's important to note that Spike did not rape her - he tried. She did not stop him, he stopped himself. This has to be worth something. Thank god he snapped out of it.

Continuing on, the Spuffy S6 sexual relationship WAS quite destructive, no doubt about that. Both sides were hurting each other greatly. One event that is quite similar to the AR, if not worse then the AR since it was an act made for a feeling a power and control, was the beating in Dead Things. Buffy beat the crap out of Spike, put all her weight and pain on him instead. Buffy also actually raped him in Gone. Not attempted rape, but rape. Spike told her he didn't want to have sex with her if there wasn't any love in the relationship. He told her to get dressed and leave if he couldn't have all of her (body AND soul) and what did she do? She sexed him anyway. That constitutes as rape.

Interesting viewpoint...I agree that both sides were using both equally. Spike made it clear that he always wanted more, but he loved her, so he was willing to take anything he could get, I guess.

Buffy was just learning more about the darkness that's inside her, and everyone else. She was in a more complicated, adult- like relationship, and I'm sure she learned a lot from it. I don't see their actions as gross, but rather as completely passionate, the kind of passion that burns like a fire.

Well said, my friend, well said.

Many of the writers have said that Smashed was "the perfect mataphor for their relationship. Passionate, destructive, and probably very painful." They weren't your mom and dad, and I'm very glad about that. Buffy's still a young girl, she doesn't need to settle and have lots of kids already. As said in Restless, "You think you know. What's to come... What you are... You haven't even begun." There's plenty of time for her to have some fun and explore her sexuality. Learn what she likes and doeesn't like. In fact, I almost thought that S7 got TOO sweet and loving, they almost lost their flair and fire. But, as we saw in Chosen, Spike literally gave Buffy back the fire and passion that she had and lost after coming back from he dead.

*nods head*
You have a great handle and understanding of Spuffy. I wish everyone understood them as you do.

I have to head to work, but I'm going to Subscribe to this thread and follow it. I'm curious to see what people have to say regarding this, especially what you had to say about 'Gone.'

 

[Eleftheria]

I agree with PB about Spike not helping her. I mean maybe Buffy took some pleasure but it only lasted minutes or moments...because of their actions. And also i can't see what kind of pleasure, violent actions..of all kinds can offer her...but she is not the same anymore.

Spike makes a mistake by telling her "you belong to the darkness with me". No she is not dark and she will never be. He has darkness inside cause he doesn't have a soul. Buffy is lost. And with Spike she kept losing herself instead of coming to the surface.

 

[Flannen]

Very true - most Bangels detest the Spuffy S6 relationship, and I dare say, often seem to misinterpret its purpose, deny its importance, and misunderstand its meaning.

I see what you're saying here, but I wouldn't necessarily say it's true or fair to lump all Bangel fans together. As a Bangel, just because I don't see the season six relationship in the same way that you do, doesn't mean that I do or have done any of the things above. I've interpreted and understood it differently, as something that does not resonate with me and I wouldn't deny it's importance, I just don't think it was something positive.

True that. Spike is the only person who has compltely accepted her for who she is, in the good times and the bad.

I'd contest that. I think it's a huge underestimation of the other characters to suggest this. The way I see it is that it was too painful, verging on embarrassing, for Buffy to share the way she was feeling, particularly in season six, with the others and they were never given a chance to understand her. The one person who was, being Tara, actually did just that and had the others been given the same opportunity I don't think they would have let her down.

Well, it's important to note that Spike did not rape her - he tried. She did not stop him, he stopped himself. This has to be worth something. Thank god he snapped out of it.

Whilst I do agree that this event was a pivotal moment in Spike's journey, it doesn't make it a positive thing for me. It doesn't make him a heroic character that it took something so degrading to both parties for him to realise his own potential. And as far as I can remember from this episode, I still contest that Spike did not stop himself or snap himself out of it, Buffy forced him off and it was then that he realised how out of hand the situation had gotten.

And as for Bangel fans ignoring the season seven relationship, it's not that I ignore it but that to me it's all about a friendship, not romantic (as in love/boyfriend-girlfriend) or a continuation of the season six relationship. It's something new and touching and, for me, a redeeming aspect that is separate to what had come before.

All that being said, this is a fantastic post Wishing Oceans. You've obviously developed the way you feel about this ship and even though I may disagree at time, your analysis is awesome. It could be really interesting to take Kean's ship swapping even further and for some of us to take the time to look so deeply at our 'opposing' ships. 😀

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I see what you're saying here, but I wouldn't necessarily say it's true or fair to lump all Bangel fans together. As a Bangel, just because I don't see the season six relationship in the same way that you do, doesn't mean that I do or have done any of the things above. I've interpreted and understood it differently, as something that does not resonate with me and I wouldn't deny it's importance, I just don't think it was something positive.

True, I should have said in my opinion.

I'd contest that. I think it's a huge underestimation of the other characters to suggest this. The way I see it is that it was too painful, verging on embarrassing, for Buffy to share the way she was feeling, particularly in season six, with the others and they were never given a chance to understand her. The one person who was, being Tara, actually did just that and had the others been given the same opportunity I don't think they would have let her down.

Sorry, but I disagree. Sure, she told Tara about how she felt about sleeping with Spike. Because she knew Tara would understand. But...would Xander have? Willow? We all know how Xander reacted in 'Entropy', and we all saw Willow's expression when Tara brought it up to her.

When you say 'the way she was feeling' you're referring to her depression from being taken from Heaven, correct? Or are you talking about her sexual relationship with Spike? The later was a reaction to the former, obviously. Still, yes, the Gang was supportive regarding her being in Heaven, but I still stand by my idea that they would have not been supportive (rather very critical, and with good reason) if she had told them about her relationship with Spike.

This isn't a insult to Buffy's other friends, I just don't think they would have been as understanding about her relationship with Spike as he would have liked them to be.

Whilst I do agree that this event was a pivotal moment in Spike's journey, it doesn't make it a positive thing for me. It doesn't make him a heroic character that it took something so degrading to both parties for him to realise his own potential. And as far as I can remember from this episode, I still contest that Spike did not stop himself or snap himself out of it, Buffy forced him off and it was then that he realized how out of hand the situation had gotten.

I see where you are coming from and I totally understand your reasoning. Two wrongs do not make a right. But, this is just how I personally like to interpret the scene. It's a terrible thing, and I like to think that something good came out of it. Spike is my favorite character, and I tend to attempt to find the good in the bad he has done in order to justify it, I'll admit. I do that with many of the characters.

I interpret the scene as Spike stopping. I'm surprised you see it the other way. She was weak and hurt, and he could have easily over-powered her, don't you think? We have seen on several occasions that he is as strong if not possibly stronger than her. I completely believe that the only reason he didn't rape her was because he "snapped" out of it and realized what he was doing. This is not because I love Spike - it's just apparent to me in the scene and the way it was played. The look on his face after she pushes him against the wall is one of shock and horror. He just didn't realize what he had done. The human in him pushed through, and over-powered the demon, IMO.

And as for Bangel fans ignoring the season seven relationship, it's not that I ignore it but that to me it's all about a friendship, not romantic (as in love/boyfriend-girlfriend) or a continuation of the season six relationship. It's something new and touching and, for me, a redeeming aspect that is separate to what had come before.

I don't think the Bangels ignore the S7 relationship, and I agree there was a lot of friendship there. The difference is that we, the Spuffies, also see the romance as well. 🙂

All that being said, this is a fantastic post Wishing Oceans. You've obviously developed the way you feel about this ship and even though I may disagree at time, your analysis is awesome. It could be really interesting to take Kean's ship swapping even further and for some of us to take the time to look so deeply at our 'opposing' ships. 😀

Well, that's what I'm doing with my Bangel re-watch 🙂 (Which I am enjoying, btw)

 

[Wishing Oceans]

I know life is hard and there are times that we do not wanna face our problems and just disappear. Sometimes we do not feel anything and we just wanna feel sth. I think that is what Buffy did, but she chose a wrong way. She could deal with it. She could go to her friends and tell them that what they did was reckless,stupid and extremely selfish. That bringing her back was the cause of her depression.

But that was the whole point. 😀 She COULDN'T go to her friends. After they brought her back, she no longer felt comfortable around them. Whenever she was with her friends, she felt as though she had to put up a false facade to make things seem better, for their sake. She didn't want to hurt her friends, she didn't want them to worry, she just wanted it all to go away. And she accomplished that with Spike. I'm not saying it's right to use people in that way, but it's understandable. I'm just glad Joss didn't make her acquire a drug addiction or something. 🙂

Instead she chooses to share those things with someone who she says she hates.(I don't think she hates Spike though...maybe she thinks she hates him because he is another soulless vampire) and then she chooses to have sex with him and used violent methods to do it.

As I've said, Buffy was friends with Spike. Even back in S5, she trusted him with her Mother and Sister. Then, after she was brought back, she started spending more and more time with him, and she said herself she enjoyed hanging with him more than anyone else. Really, I'd say that Buffy NEVER hated Spike, just like Spike never hated Buffy. For example, in Lovers Walk, when Spike was still technically evil, Buffy said "I violently dislike you." Not hate. And that was before they started spending time together like they did in S4. 🙂 As for the violent methods... Well, she had fun I guess. You can only be young once, might as well make the best of it... 😉

She knows that using a person to feel sth and taking advantage of his feelings for her is wrong. It is un-Buffy behaviour. And that bothers her. And it also bothers me a lot.

Yes, she knew. Like in Dead Things, when she was so horrified by her own actions. And we can't really say it's "un-Buffy", because if we could, then that would also count for many other things. Because it was Buffy. It was Buffy discovering who she really was. Like, if you consider that to be "un- Buffy", then what do you think of Willow's magic addiction, something very similar to Buffy's Spike addiction? Or what about Xander leaving Anya at the alter? All the characters went a bit darker then they used to be this season. But it's still them. As they say, you can only hide beneath a mask for so long until you forget what you look like underneath.

In Season 6, and that is my personal opinion, I think Spike confuses obsession and lust for the Slayer, with love.

Well... I disagree. 🙂 He loved her. And because of that, he had a difficult time denying her of what she desperately wanted. As shown in Gone, HE was the one who wanted to stop the "fun", because he didn't want it if Buffy didn't love him back.

I don't really blame him because a soulless vampire cannot understand,perhaps love.

Spike, like other vampires, could love. As said by the Judge, his love gives him humanity. And I'm sure he could understand love. As Jane Espenson said "but when he's in love, he has the heart of a poet."

Spuffy in S6 is not love. Because my idea of love is sacrifice, unconditional feelings for each other. Violence and taking advantage of each other to get pleasure from it is not love.Feeiling guilty,dirty,humiliated is not love.

Well, in S5 Spike sacrificed himself for her. And he ALWAYS loved her unconditionally. That's one of the reasons Buffy went to him. No matter what she did, how bad she screwed up, he always loved her.

Like many people, I think you're making their sexual relationship out to be a lot worse than it really was. During that time, they were still friends. Like, right afterwards (in the beginning of Dead Things) they were having a perfectly nice, normal conversation. Buffy was just upset that she was doing something that would have repulsed her before, but now she revels in.

I feel very sorry for Buffy and I think that in S6 we see a dramatic change in Buffy's personality. For 5 years she has been a person whom I personally liked very much,admired and found a few common things with her. I can not blame her in S6 completely cause she is going through sth noone can ever imagine.

Yes, the trauma. 😀 It reminds me of "When She Was Bad." You know, Buffy's bitca behavior, seducing Xander. She had been traumatized by her death. Now she was traumatized by her life. Anyway, it's a lot like what happened before. Except now that she's older and can handle more, she decided to put all the weight on herself, and not her friends. Unfortunately, after a while the load became a bit too heavy, and she decided to start putting it on Spike instead, who she knew could handle it.

And btw, Joss chose a really dark and sadistic way to show us "growing up". Growing up is not all depression and darkness. Losing yourself and become what you hate. Many times people stand up and face difficulties, yes they make mistakes but they don't have to go through a change of personality for that.

OK, OK. 😀 I agree, growing up doesn't always have to be about the darkness. But this season was also about facing the horrors of life. Life, just living, was the Big Bad. Buffy did lose sight of the big picture for a while, but that was an important part of her character development. And she most certainly didn't change her personality; She expanded it. Starting in S5, as Joan said, Buffy began to discover the darker side of her nature. Death was now a part of her life, and she needed to embrace it. In S6, she became a LOT darker, but it was all a part of her. And in the end, it made her become a much better person. As said by Joss, in S7 she became much more of a responsible, community- based helper. An adult. She had been through a lot, and she learned from it. In S7, she became a guidance counselor, and developed a type of empathy that she didn't have before. She really got her life back, and it was better than ever. It's kind of like working out; After some vigorous exercise, your muscle breaks down. But then, after a while, it rebuilds itself, stronger than ever. 😀

I'm gonna take my stand and say he's bad for Buffy in season 6. And that's the reason I don't like them.

Well, I'd argue that BUFFY is bad for Buffy in this season. 🙂 Buffy's friends are bad for Buffy in this season, life is bad for Buffy in this season. There are many places where the blame could be placed. 😀

It's not because I belive she is meant to be with Angel, or because I don't like Spike, it's because I love Buffy so much, and he had hurted her so bad back then.

She hurt him back, in kin.(And I could argue that Angel hurt Buffy WAY worse back in S2). And Spike didn't really hurt her, not intentionally anyway. If your talking about the fight in Smashed, then I'll just say this: Before Spike got a soul, fighting was what they did. When Spike got a chip, he fought with her verbally. It was really quite understandable that Spike would want to fight her; She had been taking advantage of his chip for a long time. Think of it reversed. Like, Buffy never got her powers back during the crucifiction. Spike came back, and over the past few years hit her whenever he liked even though she couldn't hit back. When she got her powers back, she would have completely TORTURED him, then killed him. Spike was being gentle. 😀 If you're referring to Seeing Red, then I've already stated my opinion on that matter in my post. 🙂

Also, something I just remembered about Seeing Red: I think that one of the reasons for why it is a lot more disturbing than other rape scenes, like the one in Dead Things (The Geek Squad + Katrina), is because Buffy was physically hurt at the time, so Spikes advances were making her feel even more pain. Also, we're used to everyone beating Spike down more and more. But Buffy? It's rare for anyone to hurt HER. And being she's the hero and protagonist of the series, it hurts us too.

Speaking of the rape in Dead Things, that was interesting. I'm not sure if I'm the only one, but it doesn't seem to bother me too much, probably because it doesn't feel like rape. When I think of rape, I think of little girls, screaming and kicking in horror, and then some burly guy. It's really quite unfortunate that that's rarely true. Anyway, I'm sure many of us have dreamed about having a tool that would make anyone we want sleep with us; It's pretty much natural human desire. Which was interesting for this scene. Showing that things can seem all fun and dandy, but someone's going to get hurt. It's a bit like the statement "power corrupts." These guys (minus Warren, anyway) started off just wanting to have some fun, without doing any real damage. But then they started getting away with things. They realized that they actually had an influence. They had power, and they wanted to use it. They tried to bend things to their liking, wanted to be Master's. They enjoyed feeling empowered. Although they started off innocently, they ended thinking it was cool to get away with murder. They saw what they could do. And they reveled in it. Luckily, the one who lived turned his life around. But it just goes to show you that Buffy had a lot of power, and she could've done much worse things with it. 😀

She was so lost, and so confused, and he didn't helped her.

He did try to help her, actually. He befriended her, talked to her when she needed a friend, tried to get information for her, killed demons with her. He was her confidant, the only thing keeping her from going insane.

He didn't pulled her where she is susposed to be, in the light, with her friends, and family, he pushed her back in the darknes because he didn't want to be alone.

Alright, first off, it wasn't Spike's responsibility to "pull her back where she's supposed to be." That would have been a very Angel thing to do. 😀 Buffy initiated the relationship, it was Buffy's decision, and Buffy knew what she was getting into. Buffy was old enough to make choices for herself; She didn't need someone to be controlling her life.

He didn't "push her back in the darkness because he didn't want to be alone." He loved her, he wanted her, and he knew that she wanted him, too. Although he would have preffered a loving relationship, he was willing to have Buffy any way he could. He couldn't come into the light, he thought it was time that Buffy came into the shadows.

In my eyes he was selfish. And about season 7, there I see them like friends, nothing more.

Really, Buffy was the selfish one. She knew what she was doing, she knew who it was hurting, but she still continued for her own pleasure. She was the one with the soul, she knew right from wrong.

As for S7, I'm not sure how you can think that since the passion was pretty obvious in my eyes, but that's a whole different topic. 🙂

Spike makes a mistake by telling her "you belong to the darkness with me". No she is not dark and she will never be. He has darkness inside cause he doesn't have a soul. Buffy is lost. And with Spike she kept losing herself instead of coming to the surface.

I'd say that all Slayers have darkness in them. It's hard to imagine our younger Buffy being dark, but Buffy's older now. She's learned about the true roots of her strength and power. Really, I think that you could tell just by the name. "Slayer" is just a more impersonal term for killer. She spends her free time out killing lives, and she enjoys it. ("You got off on it." "Well, yeah. I expect you're telling me you DON'T?" Silence. -Fool For Love) It's a dark job. Technically, a Slayer is a human girl given the powers of a demon. It's demonic heritage, it's in her. Spike "has darkness inside" because he's a vampire. And because he's alive. I don't know one person who isn't just a little dark. Darkness is inside ALL of us, Slayer or not. Without both good and evil inside each of us, the world wouldn't be balanced. What matters is the choices we make. Take Faith for example. She seemed like a sweet girl, maybe a tad wild. But overall, a good one. But she was seduced by "the dark side." And then she became good again. It's never ending.

There is a dark and a light side to every developed character. Giles: He seemed like a kind, gentle old librarian. What about Ripper? "Bad magic, hates the world, ticking time bomb guy!" That's what youthful Giles was like. But he grew up, and learned from his mistakes. More or less. His darker side is shown in the way he has absolutely no trouble in killing someone "for the greater good." Willow: Willow was an adorable, sweet, shy, academically accomplished girl. But in S6, she succumbed to the allure of power, and lost control. She killed someone, and became completely addicted and reliant on magic. Wesley: In the beginning he was a professional Watcher. Slightly uptight, but always doing what was right. On Angel he turned rogue, and killed many people if he felt the need to.

 

[Eleftheria]

Yes a Slayer has the powers of a demon but she uses them for GOOD. A demonic nature can not make you dark though without your own will.

We all have a dark side...noone is perfect but what really matters is how much we let this darkness surface, take over. I believe Buffy let her darkness take over in season 6(but she is not dark...she hasn't been dark before) cause she was taking advantage of someone's feelings(Spike) and the Buffy we know and love would never do that. That's why I think this is un-Buffy behaviour and not Buffy growing up, or discovering who she is.

I am not gonna disagree anymore about Spike/Buffy not being love. I have a different idea of love and I will respect other ideas although I don't agree.But in my eyes season 6 is more like an obsession and lust which finally become true from Smashed(I think). It has nothing to do with communication and understandment. It is more like helping someone go deeper to the dark side.

As for Willow's addiction it's because she has been using magic for so long. So she became addicted to it. But Buffy had never used Spike before. She never even thought to have a sexual relationship before S6...and then she can't turn to her friends and she turns to the one person she doesn't care about. I just don't understand.

I also agree about Spike/Buffy being an addiction.

And I have a feeling that "Dead things" will be my personal worst episode...although I have only watched a few parts of it. I sense a lot of sadness and addiction there as well as violence.

 

[Wishing Oceans]

Yes a Slayer has the powers of a demon but she uses them for GOOD. A demonic nature can not make you dark though without your own will.

Well, it did for a lot of slayers. The First Slayer, for example. Also, as I've said, "good" and "bad" is all from a perspective.

We all have a dark side...noone is perfect but what really matters is how much we let this darkness surface, take over. I believe Buffy let her darkness take over in season 6(but she is not dark...she hasn't been dark before) cause she was taking advantage of someone's feelings(Spike) and the Buffy we know and love would never do that. That's why I think this is un-Buffy behaviour and not Buffy growing up, or discovering who she is.

Buffy took advantage of someone's feelings in When She Was Bad. 🙂

I am not gonna disagree anymore about Spike/Buffy not being love. I have a different idea of love and I will respect other ideas although I don't agree.But in my eyes season 6 is more like an obsession and lust which finally become true from Smashed(I think). It has nothing to do with communication and understandment. It is more like helping someone go deeper to the dark side.

Well, Spuffy wasn't mutual love in S6, but I think it's fair to say that Spike loved her. He got a soul for her, after all. It is true though that Buffy didn't really love him until S7.

As for Willow's addiction it's because she has been using magic for so long. So she became addicted to it. But Buffy had never used Spike before. She never even thought to have a sexual relationship before S6...and then she can't turn to her friends and she turns to the one person she doesn't care about. I just don't understand.

Well, the Willow- magic thing and the Buffy- Spike thing WERE quite similar, as shown in some dialogue taken from Wrecked:

WILLOW I just ... it took me away from myself, I was ... free.
BUFFY: (looks down, pensive) I get that. More than you- (breaks off) But it's wrong. People get hurt.

WILLOW It won't happen again, I promise. No more spells. I'm finished.
BUFFY: (frowns) Good. I think it's right. To give it up. (pensive) No matter how good it feels.
WILLOW: It's not worth it. Not if it messes with the people I love.

And I have a feeling that "Dead things" will be my personal worst episode...although I have only watched a few parts of it. I sense a lot of sadness and addiction there as well as violence.

You... probably won't like it. 😀 It's a bit emotionally disturbing and definitely one of the darker episodes.

 

[Kelsey]

In Season 6, and that is my personal opinion, I think Spike confuses obsession and lust for the Slayer, with love.

I have to disagree. There was obsession and lust, no doubt about that, but I truly believe he loved her. People tend to forget that his love started in Season 5, and really before then although he didn't admit it. While I think there was definitely obsession and darkness there, I know there was also goodness in his love. It's the only thing that could've made him as good as he was--and some of his actions were truly heroic.

I don't really blame him because a soulless vampire cannot understand,perhaps love.

I disagree with that, too. I always loved the quote from Drusilla in Crush, when Buffy declares that vampires can't love. Dru replies, "Oh, we can, you know. We can love quite well. If not wisely." Despite the evilness of Drusilla, I always found that quote kind of beautiful. Vampires are dark creatures, but they are also slaves to their emotions. They have no choice but to obey their anger, hate, greed, and in Spike's case, love. Once Spike fell in love with the Slayer, he was helpless to do anything but follow that love, no matter how hopeless and wrong it seemed.

Spuffy in S6 is not love. Because my idea of love is sacrifice, unconditional feelings for each other. Violence and taking advantage of each other to get pleasure from it is not love.Feeiling guilty,dirty,humiliated is not love.

I agree with this to a point. Love is sacrifice and unconditional support. But when two characters hate themselves so completely, how can they be expected to share something so untainted and beautiful? I don't think the wasn't love there, I just think Spike and Buffy hated themselves too much to indulge in it. They both felt dark and twisted, Buffy by circumstance and Spike by nature, and it made them treat each other terribly.

Also, I don't think we should forget that Spike in Season 5 was willing to sacrifice everything for Buffy; his intentions and his love were much purer then. He even said: "I know you'll never love me. I know that I'm a monster, but you treat me like a man." This shows that he wasn't after her just to possess her. He knew it was hopeless, but being treated like a man was something he wanted at that point.

Also, he nearly let Glory kill him just because he knew Buffy would die if anything happened to Dawn. That is selfless love at it's best, which Buffy later acknowledged. In addition, Spike also walked into the battle with Glory knowing he could die--in which case he'd spend eternity in a Hell dimension. A soulless vampire cared enough about someone else to be willing to risk his immortality and march into a battle he didn't have to fight. In my opinion, there's nothing more selfless than that! I just find all of it so beautiful, which is probably why I love Spike and Spuffy so much. I realize that this is a bit of a tangent, as well, since we're supposed to be talking about S6, but to say Spike never felt selfless, unconditional love toward Buffy wouldn't be accurate.

There were a lot of things I hated in Season 6. I'm one of those people who believes Spike could have found a way to be good without a soul. If the Slayer and the Scoobies had helped him rather than ostracizing him, I think he could have found the path to redemption a long time before he did, and the soul wouldn't have been necessary. He had already defied the odds by falling in love with the Slayer and being more selfless than a soulless creature had any right to be, and I just wonder what would have happened if Buffy and her friends hadn't constantly shoved him down. I imagine being treated like an evil monster doesn't help one stop being one.

 

[thevikingsgirl]

I have to disagree. There was obsession and lust, no doubt about that, but I truly believe he loved her. People tend to forget that his love started in Season 5, and really before then although he didn't admit it. While I think there was definitely obsession and darkness there, I know there was also goodness in his love. It's the only thing that could've made him as good as he was--and some of his actions were truly heroic.




I disagree with that, too. I always loved the quote from Drusilla in Crush, when Buffy declares that vampires can't love. Dru replies, "Oh, we can, you know. We can love quite well. If not wisely." Despite the evilness of Drusilla, I always found that quote kind of beautiful. Vampires are dark creatures, but they are also slaves to their emotions. They have no choice but to obey their anger, hate, greed, and in Spike's case, love. Once Spike fell in love with the Slayer, he was helpless to do anything but follow that love, no matter how hopeless and wrong it seemed.




I agree with this to a point. Love is sacrifice and unconditional support. But when two characters hate themselves so completely, how can they be expected to share something so untainted and beautiful? I don't think the wasn't love there, I just think Spike and Buffy hated themselves too much to indulge in it. They both felt dark and twisted, Buffy by circumstance and Spike by nature, and it made them treat each other terribly.

Also, I don't think we should forget that Spike in Season 5 was willing to sacrifice everything for Buffy; his intentions and his love were much purer then. He even said: "I know you'll never love me. I know that I'm a monster, but you treat me like a man." This shows that he wasn't after her just to possess her. He knew it was hopeless, but being treated like a man was something he wanted at that point.

Also, he nearly let Glory kill him just because he knew Buffy would die if anything happened to Dawn. That is selfless love at it's best, which Buffy later acknowledged. In addition, Spike also walked into the battle with Glory knowing he could die--in which case he'd spend eternity in a Hell dimension. A soulless vampire cared enough about someone else to be willing to risk his immortality and march into a battle he didn't have to fight. In my opinion, there's nothing more selfless than that! I just find all of it so beautiful, which is probably why I love Spike and Spuffy so much. I realize that this is a bit of a tangent, as well, since we're supposed to be talking about S6, but to say Spike never felt selfless, unconditional love toward Buffy wouldn't be accurate.

There were a lot of things I hated in Season 6. I'm one of those people who believes Spike could have found a way to be good without a soul. If the Slayer and the Scoobies had helped him rather than ostracizing him, I think he could have found the path to redemption a long time before he did, and the soul wouldn't have been necessary. He had already defied the odds by falling in love with the Slayer and being more selfless than a soulless creature had any right to be, and I just wonder what would have happened if Buffy and her friends hadn't constantly shoved him down. I imagine being treated like an evil monster doesn't help one stop being one.

I love that quote by Drusilla too. I also agree with your last paragraph. Spike was ostracized long after he had made a conscious choice to do good (nearly giving his life to protect Dawn, fighting with the Scoobies between seasons 5 and 6, etc.). Xander and even Giles always treated him like a "soulless, evil thing." Buffy wasn't much better when she wasn't in the process of having sex with him. I think it would have been really cool for them to show that being "good" and being "bad" is a choice we all make, regardless of our essential make up. If they had accepted Spike as part of the gang in some way, it could have gone differently. That he became more good without a soul is what appeals to me so much about him. It kind of...cheapened it, in a way, and it made me think less of Buffy, that she was so much more willing to accept him when he had a soul, when before that she wasn't willing to do so even when he was doing good (all while being beaten down by everyone around him).

 

[Kelsey]

That he became more good without a soul is what appeals to me so much about him. It kind of...cheapened it, in a way, and it made me think less of Buffy, that she was so much more willing to accept him when he had a soul, when before that she wasn't willing to do so even when he was doing good (all while being beaten down by everyone around him).

Yes! I completely agree. I'm proud of Spike for fighting like hell to get his soul, but I wasn't thrilled with it when I first found out. Angel's already got the soulled-vampire shtick, and the uniqueness of Spike came from his ability to be good without one. Not only that, but to be good when every single instinct inside of him told him to be evil. It blurred the lines and made us question the foundations of evil and darkness in the Buffy 'verse. Was an evil creature still evil if he chose to be good?

I agree with the soul cheapening it as well. It's too easy to write off everything he did before as him just being unsoulled, evil Spike. Just like Angel separates himself so completely from Angelus, I felt like the soul gave Buffy an out to say, "Spike's completely different now. It's okay to love him because he's no longer the person who did those things." I would have much rather kept Spike the character he was and watched him try to gain redemption while still being the creature that had done so many terrible things. That's probably because I have a whole other opinion on souls and vampires, but that's a topic for another thread, hah.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I'm proud of Spike for fighting like hell to get his soul, but I wasn't thrilled with it when I first found out. Angel's already got the soulled-vampire shtick, and the uniqueness of Spike came from his ability to be good without one.

This is a great point, Kelsey.

That he became more good without a soul is what appeals to me so much about him. It kind of...cheapened it, in a way, and it made me think less of Buffy, that she was so much more willing to accept him when he had a soul, when before that she wasn't willing to do so even when he was doing good (all while being beaten down by everyone around him).

Well, it can be contested if he was "good" without a soul, and what his motivations were that that point - but yes, there is evidence that he displayed loyalty and love w/o a soul, such as when he, in protecting Dawn from Glory, allowed himself to be tortured.

I agree with the soul cheapening it as well. It's too easy to write off everything he did before as him just being unsoulled, evil Spike. Just like Angel separates himself so completely from Angelus, I felt like the soul gave Buffy an out to say, "Spike's completely different now. It's okay to love him because he's no longer the person who did those things." I would have much rather kept Spike the character he was and watched him try to gain redemption while still being the creature that had done so many terrible things. That's probably because I have a whole other opinion on souls and vampires, but that's a topic for another thread, hah.

Yes, it would have been interesting to see Spike continue to fight for redemption without a soul. Yet, all Spike wanted and what he fought for was Buffy's love, respect, and acceptance and she would have never allowed herself to love him without a soul.

 

[Kelsey]

Yes, it would have been interesting to see Spike continue to fight for redemption without a soul. Yet, all Spike wanted and what he fought for was Buffy's love, respect, and acceptance and she would have never allowed herself to love him without a soul.

That is true. I think that's part of the reason he does go that route, along with the terrible guilt he felt for what he tried to do. He knows she loved Angel, and the only difference (well, not the only, but y'know) between them is the soul. So as much as he wanted to make sure he'd never hurt Buffy again, maybe he was also trying to make himself lovable in her eyes.

...Which only makes me more annoyed with her. Hah, what can I say? Die-hard Spike fan. If he was to find redemption without getting his soul, he'd really have to want it. His desires are always focused directly or indirectly on Buffy. In this case, he'd have to choose to be good despite the fact that Buffy probably wouldn't love him. Would he have been able to do it? Who knows!

 

[EllaBlack]

I am in the middle of watching season 6 I just got doen watching Gone. When Spike does his "exercises" it's hilarious

 

[Wishing Oceans]

TheVoid68 disagrees: I disagree with you so much it hurts

Hmm, care to elaborate? 🙂


Anyway, I've been rethinking the whole S6 Spuffy thing, and honestly, I love it more than ever. It just has so much more meaning and importance than any other 'ship, like, ever. It's so unique, and really intriguing. Like, think about where they were in S5. In S4. In S3. In S2. They REALLY went a long way. 😀