Spuffy S7: Friends or Lovers?

[white avenger]

I can never let this one go, cuz I don't understand how people just gloss over it becasue they like Spike.

That pretty much sums up the whole difference between the Bangel viewpoint and the Spuffy viewpoint. You can't see it, so it doesn't exist. We CAN see it, so, to you, we are automatically wrong.

The perfect example of this is the fade to black scene in "Chosen." Joss said in the voiceover that he was leaving it up to the viewer to fill in. The Bangels can't see Buffy and Spike making love that last night, so it must not have happened.

And, yes, Buffy did love Xander, Willow, and Giles. Sha didn't sleep with them, and she didn't choose to spend what might very well have been her last night alive with any of them. Even the First Evil, who had no reason whatsoever to lie, referred to Spike as Buffy's dead lover, not her dead best friend.

And, yes, it is possible to be in love with someone and not realize it immediately. It is, in fact, quite common, especially for someone who had had so many people who she had loved either taken from her or simply left. Refusal to admit one's true feelings in that case becomes a defense mechanism. As for Spike doubting her when she finally said that she did, in fact, love him, it's quite possible that he doubted it simply because she had spent so much time and energy the year before denying that she even liked him, despite the fact that she trusted him enough to entrust Dawn's well being to him AFTER the events in "Seeing Red." Oh, wait, he still had that chip in his head, didn't he. He couldn't hurt her if he tried. On the other hand, he COULD simply stand by and let anything else do it if he chose to. JThat wouldn't cause the chip to even flicker.

Bangels will always deny that Buffy ever was in love with Spike, despite all of the evidence to the contrary, simply because they refuse to accept that evidence, or they fall back on halfway measures, like "Spike was just her best friend in Season 7, nothing more," and, "Buffy told Spike that she loved him only because she knew that he was about to die, and she wanted to give him that last moment of happiness," or "Buffy loved Spike, but she wasn't IN LOVE with him," and, of course, the classic, "Even Spike knew that she didn't mean it. That's why he tild her that she really didn't love him."

This is another one of those Astronauts vs Cavemen debates that can go on until we're all dead of old age, and our grandchildren tale up where we left off, and will never be truly resolved.

 

[GrrArghx]

Bangels will always deny that Buffy ever was in love with Spike, despite all of the evidence to the contrary, simply because they refuse to accept that evidence, or they fall back on halfway measures, like "Spike was just her best friend in Season 7, nothing more," and, "Buffy told Spike that she loved him only because she knew that he was about to die, and she wanted to give him that last moment of happiness," or "Buffy loved Spike, but she wasn't IN LOVE with him," and, of course, the classic, "Even Spike knew that she didn't mean it. That's why he tild her that she really didn't love him."

This is another one of those Astronauts vs Cavemen debates that can go on until we're all dead of old age, and our grandchildren tale up where we left off, and will never be truly resolved.

That's not entirely true though. I don't deny that Buffy wasn't in love with Spike because 'I don't want her to be'. I deny it because I just don't see it, and that isn't on purpose, it's just the way I took it by watching the show and seeing how everything unfolded.

 

[white avenger]

I deny it because I just don't see it, and that isn't on purpose, it's just the way I took it by watching the show and seeing how everything unfolded.

That's pretty much what I said. You don't see it, so you don't believe that it existed. You choose to interpret the evidence from your own viewpoint, just the same as I do. That's called human nature, and we're all like that to one extent or another.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

That pretty much sums up the whole difference between the Bangel viewpoint and the Spuffy viewpoint. You can't see it, so it doesn't exist. We CAN see it, so, to you, we are automatically wrong.

The perfect example of this is the fade to black scene in "Chosen." Joss said in the voiceover that he was leaving it up to the viewer to fill in. The Bangels can't see Buffy and Spike making love that last night, so it must not have happened.

And, yes, Buffy did love Xander, Willow, and Giles. Sha didn't sleep with them, and she didn't choose to spend what might very well have been her last night alive with any of them. Even the First Evil, who had no reason whatsoever to lie, referred to Spike as Buffy's dead lover, not her dead best friend.

And, yes, it is possible to be in love with someone and not realize it immediately. It is, in fact, quite common, especially for someone who had had so many people who she had loved either taken from her or simply left. Refusal to admit one's true feelings in that case becomes a defense mechanism. As for Spike doubting her when she finally said that she did, in fact, love him, it's quite possible that he doubted it simply because she had spent so much time and energy the year before denying that she even liked him, despite the fact that she trusted him enough to entrust Dawn's well being to him AFTER the events in "Seeing Red." Oh, wait, he still had that chip in his head, didn't he. He couldn't hurt her if he tried. On the other hand, he COULD simply stand by and let anything else do it if he chose to. JThat wouldn't cause the chip to even flicker.

Bangels will always deny that Buffy ever was in love with Spike, despite all of the evidence to the contrary, simply because they refuse to accept that evidence, or they fall back on halfway measures, like "Spike was just her best friend in Season 7, nothing more," and, "Buffy told Spike that she loved him only because she knew that he was about to die, and she wanted to give him that last moment of happiness," or "Buffy loved Spike, but she wasn't IN LOVE with him," and, of course, the classic, "Even Spike knew that she didn't mean it. That's why he tild her that she really didn't love him."

This is another one of those Astronauts vs Cavemen debates that can go on until we're all dead of old age, and our grandchildren tale up where we left off, and will never be truly resolved.

And this is the trademark of any Spuff vs Bangel argument I have ever had, all the evidence to show Buffy didn't love Spike is said by the Spuffy fan, which mens it can't be used as an argument.

There is a reason "Even Spike knew that she didn't mean it. That's why he told her that she really didn't love him." is a classic - It is plain and simple, in black and white, she said I love you and if he had felt she meant it, he would have said it back.

There is only 1 reason, why he wouldn't and thats becasue he didn't believe her, and he didn't feel she meant it.

Her spending a year denying it wouldn't make him automatically say no you don't, in that moment, right before he thought he was about to die, they were choosing their words carefully, they weren't joking around. It is so clear from what he said "no you don't, but thanks for saying it" he knew she didn't mean it and he didn't want her pity I love you, he was better then that.

I think that is an awesome thing about Spikes character, becasue just the night before he told her he had his pride and she couldn't stay with him, but then said that was a lie, and the whole pride thing was a smoke screen. Because he had no dignity in their relationship at all, in S6 he was used by her, and in S7 he became he kinda sucked up to her. In the end he got some self respect back, he told her he doesn't need her to say I love you.

As for the fade to black, exactly as Kean said, just becasue Spuffys want to see it there, forgot it as Bangels not wanting it to happen, going on the evidence -

Buffy walks down to Spike, the two talk, he then says she can spend the night, cut to later where their fully clothed, if they had sex, I really doubt they then put on all their cloths again.

And really, your going to use The Firsts "Dead lover" as proof, the thing loved to lie, it claimed to bring Angel back from hell and told Andrew if he killed himself and Johnathon they would become gods, it also said it was going to Kill Buffy and Co. , so not really a reliable source.

Also she didn't choose to spend her last night with him, I could say she chose to spend a night making up for saying hi to Angel with her tongue, knowing Spike was gonna be cranky. It just happened to turn out to be her last night, as the First came to her (If I wanted to make a joke, I could also say that she spent the night with Spike, then the next day possibly lead the gang to certain death, but I wont)

All the evidence of Spuffy being truely in love I just don't see, everything can be explained in a different way, it's not the same with Angel or even Riley where the clues are obvious.

 

[white avenger]

Comments on this post
Kean agrees: And what? because Spuffies can see "it" they must have slept together that last night in Sunnydale? What makes that stance anymore correct than that of the people who don't see it?


That's pretty much "it," yeah. We believe it, because we want to. Bangels deny it, because they DON'T believe it. Joss said that it was left up to the imagination and interpretation of the viewer, and this viewer, as well as a bunch of others, imagined that it happened.

Buffy believed that she, Spike, maybe all of the group, had a very good chance of not surviving the next day's encounter. That was understandable, considering the odds. She didn't want to spend her last living night alone. She wanted to share it, and what pleasure that she could find, with someone else. Would you have preferred that she spend it with Andrew? She wanted one last night of pleasuer. If you can't accept the fact that Buffy loved Spike, was IN LOVE WITH Spike, do you have to deny what almost certainly happened? People facing the possibility of death like that seldom spend the night playing checkers.

Yes, I most certainly believe that Buffy and Spike made love that last night, and I believe that it was slow and sweet and wonderful, and that they spent the rest of the night cuddling and whispering and trying desperately to forget for a brief time what they were about to face. I believe that because I think that they both wanted it, needed it, and deserved it.

But also, above and beyond any normal desire for simple human contact at such a time, they did "it" because Spike was in love with Buffy, and she had finally come to realize what she had been in denial of for months. That she was also in love with him. Why didn't she tell him that night? I have no idea, but I do believe that things happened pretty much that way.

So, yes, because Spuffies believe that Buffy and Spike made love that night, it really happened. For us, it really happened. If the Bangels don't want to see it, well, they're some of those viewers, too, and Joss gave them the option of seenin it just how they wanted to. Just like us.

And Black Eyed Guy, as for why Spike told Buffy that she didn't rreally love him, we Spuffies have a classic argument for that, too. He told her that because he was afraid that if he said that he loved her too, she would have stayed there and died with him. So he said what he said in order to get her out of harm's way. See, we Spuffies have our classic arguments, just like Bangels.

 

[GrrArghx]

Comments on this post
Kean agrees: And what? because Spuffies can see "it" they must have slept together that last night in Sunnydale? What makes that stance anymore correct than that of the people who don't see it?


That's pretty much "it," yeah. We believe it, because we want to. Bangels deny it, because they DON'T believe it. Joss said that it was left up to the imagination and interpretation of the viewer, and this viewer, as well as a bunch of others, imagined that it happened.

Buffy believed that she, Spike, maybe all of the group, had a very good chance of not surviving the next day's encounter. That was understandable, considering the odds. She didn't want to spend her last living night alone. She wanted to share it, and what pleasure that she could find, with someone else. Would you have preferred that she spend it with Andrew? She wanted one last night of pleasuer. If you can't accept the fact that Buffy loved Spike, was IN LOVE WITH Spike, do you have to deny what almost certainly happened? People facing the possibility of death like that seldom spend the night playing checkers.

Yes, I most certainly believe that Buffy and Spike made love that last night, and I believe that it was slow and sweet and wonderful, and that they spent the rest of the night cuddling and whispering and trying desperately to forget for a brief time what they were about to face. I believe that because I think that they both wanted it, needed it, and deserved it.

But also, above and beyond any normal desire for simple human contact at such a time, they did "it" because Spike was in love with Buffy, and she had finally come to realize what she had been in denial of for months. That she was also in love with him. Why didn't she tell him that night? I have no idea, but I do believe that things happened pretty much that way.

So, yes, because Spuffies believe that Buffy and Spike made love that night, it really happened. For us, it really happened. If the Bangels don't want to see it, well, they're some of those viewers, too, and Joss gave them the option of seenin it just how they wanted to. Just like us.

And Black Eyed Guy, as for why Spike told Buffy that she didn't rreally love him, we Spuffies have a classic argument for that, too. He told her that because he was afraid that if he said that he loved her too, she would have stayed there and died with him. So he said what he said in order to get her out of harm's way. See, we Spuffies have our classic arguments, just like Bangels.

Spike said himself all they did was lay there together.

Spike: Yeah I hear you say it, but... I've lived for soddin' ever, Buffy. I've done everything. Done things with you I can't spell, but I've never been close to anyone. Least of all, you. 'Til last night. All I did was hold you, watch you sleep. And it was the best night of my life. So, yeah. I'm terrified.

EDIT:

white avenger agrees: That was the night that they spent in the vacant house, not the basement.

Nevermind then. I got confused 😛

 

[Kelsey]

Whooo, Black Eye Guy, you are so one-sided. Not to say that I don't stick to my side, but you make pretty definitive statements for a show that never gave any. Denial, perhaps. 😉

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Whooo, Black Eye Guy, you are so one-sided. Not to say that I don't stick to my side, but you make pretty definitive statements for a show that never gave any. Denial, perhaps. 😉

Woot! Where's Oriana to see all of this! Her thread is really taking off.

Looks like we have yet another shipper debate here.

I think we can all agree that we see and decide what we want to in order to suit our ship. Anyone who wants to step up and say this isn't the case, let's hear it. But I reckon you'll be lying to yourself if you do.

This is another one of those Astronauts vs Cavemen debates that can go on until we're all dead of old age, and our grandchildren tale up where we left off, and will never be truly resolved.

Yep...

That's not entirely true though. I don't deny that Buffy wasn't in love with Spike because 'I don't want her to be'. I deny it because I just don't see it, and that isn't on purpose, it's just the way I took it by watching the show and seeing how everything unfolded.

I appreciate your honesty here, yet this is where I have a really hard time understanding you guys - and believe me, I've heard this before on several occasions. How can you honestly say that you didn't "see" how Buffy felt about Spike? The ways he treated him clearly illustrates how much she loved him.

*sigh*

I just don't get it.

All the evidence of Spuffy being truly in love I just don't see, everything can be explained in a different way, it's not the same with Angel or even Riley where the clues are obvious.

No clues were obvious to me regarding Riley and Buffy. Are you implying we should all see obvious clues that Buffy loved him? All I saw was the opposite.

And Black Eye Guy, we all know how you feel about Spuffy. I agree with you that they were friends in S7, but not "just" friends. It was obvious to me (and to many, many others) that they were more than friends, just as it was obvious to you that Bangel were more than "just" friends.

So, yes, because Spuffies believe that Buffy and Spike made love that night, it really happened. For us, it really happened. If the Bangels don't want to see it, well, they're some of those viewers, too, and Joss gave them the option of seening it just how they wanted to. Just like us.

Exactly.

And Black Eyed Guy, as for why Spike told Buffy that she didn't rreally love him, we Spuffies have a classic argument for that, too. He told her that because he was afraid that if he said that he loved her too, she would have stayed there and died with him. So he said what he said in order to get her out of harm's way. See, we Spuffies have our classic arguments, just like Bangels.

WA, I agree, obviously. All Spike ever cared about at that point was Buffy and of course, her safety. but I feel like going on a rant so I'm going too:

By not "believing" Buffy's admittance of love to Spike you're doing a dis-service to her character, calling her a liar and dishonest, and in my opinion, disrespecting her. If we are to believe that any character on the show's "I love you's" are subjective, then hell, can't the same be said about Xander and Anya? Angel and Buffy? Tara and Willow? Do you get my jist?

Why in the world would Buffy lie about loving someone? Her character has done nothing but prove that she doesn't tell those three words to just anyone.

Believe me, I know all these arguments and none of them make sense to me. As for the argument that she told Spike because "he was going to die anyways" is just lame. Come on, guys! Let's give our Buffy more credit then that! And as for the other "classic" Spuffy-bashing argument, that she told him because she think "he deserved it", well, do I even need to acknowledge that one? Riley deserved her love, too. He gave up his life for her, made her life his, just like Spike did. Yet, she never told Riley she loved him.

And of course, my all-time favorite argument; Buffy told Spike she loved him, and she meant it yes, but she only "meant it in a friendly way." Come on. Seriously? Their hands clasped and fire exploded from the heat they had created together. He gave her "her fire back." EVERYTHING about that scene suggests romance; the music, the fire metaphor, the look on her face, the crying. I respect you all and love you all, but I honestly can not get how people can honestly say that they honestly believe that Buffy and Spike were just friends in Season 7.

Buffy told Spike she loved him and she meant it. Seriously. Next time you try and argue that Buffy was lying in that scene just think about what you're implying regarding Buffy's character.

For instance;

How can you not see the love on her face in this cap?

Or here, in 'Dead Things' when she's dreaming about him in her bed? The ways he clings to him, pulls him towards herself, and passionately kisses him?

I just will. never. get. it. That "Buffy didn't love Spike". I never will.

 

[white avenger]

As I have said before, to me, and, I believe, a lot of us here, the Spuffy/Bangel debate is, if not THE most important reason that we are here, at least we can all admit that it IS important. It's like a good sparring session. It keeps us alert and focused. As long as we can enjoy the debate without getting angry, abusive, or insulting, I think that it's a lot of fun, and it certainly strengthens my resolve, as I'm sure that it does with a lot of others on both sides of the argument. So to my friends who just happen to be on what I consider to be the "other side," I say...

COME ON...YOU KNOW YOU WANT TO DANCE.

 

[Kelsey]

As I have said before, to me, and, I believe, a lot of us here, the Spuffy/Bangel debate is, if not THE most important reason that we are here, at least we can all admit that it IS important. It's like a good sparring session. It keeps us alert and focused. As long as we can enjoy the debate without getting angry, abusive, or insulting, I think that it's a lot of fun, and it certainly strengthens my resolve, as I'm sure that it does with a lot of others on both sides of the argument. So to my friends who just happen to be on what I consider to be the "other side," I say...

COME ON...YOU KNOW YOU WANT TO DANCE.

Haha, nice! But yes, debating has strengthened my resolve a lot. I'm a bigger Spuffy shipper and Spike lover than ever!

 

[Flannen]

I think we can all agree that we see and decide what we want to in order to suit our ship. Anyone who wants to step up and say this isn't the case, let's hear it. But I reckon you'll be lying to yourself if you do.

I think this an easy argument to make to try and justify why you don't think other people see things the same way as you. I don't see what I want to see, I see what I feel. This is one of the things is these shipper debates that really gets to me. In the same way you don't like the use of the words 'more' and 'better', Becky, I don't get on with people suggesting I'm lying because I feel differently about things.

I think after the events of the last few episodes of season seven Buffy was aware that she did have the capacity to love Spike romantically, but I don't think she was there yet. IF she had chosen to say those three little words the night BEFORE Chosen, which I was actually waiting for, then I think it's safe to say I'd feel differently about it. But the fact she waited until he was dying to say them had absolutely no conviction for me. For me, that was as much as fan service to Spuffy fans as Angel's return in the last episode was to Bangels.

By not "believing" Buffy's admittance of love to Spike you're doing a dis-service to her character, calling her a liar and dishonest, and in my opinion, disrespecting her. If we are to believe that any character on the show's "I love you's" are subjective, then hell, can't the same be said about Xander and Anya? Angel and Buffy? Tara and Willow? Do you get my jist?

Why in the world would Buffy lie about loving someone? Her character has done nothing but prove that she doesn't tell those three words to just anyone.

Believe me, I know all these arguments and none of them make sense to me. As for the argument that she told Spike because "he was going to die anyways" is just lame. Come on, guys! Let's give our Buffy more credit then that! And as for the other "classic" Spuffy-bashing argument, that she told him because she think "he deserved it", well, do I even need to acknowledge that one? Riley deserved her love, too. He gave up his life for her, made her life his, just like Spike did. Yet, she never told Riley she loved him.

And of course, my all-time favorite argument; Buffy told Spike she loved him, and she meant it yes, but she only "meant it in a friendly way." Come on. Seriously? Their hands clasped and fire exploded from the heat they had created together. He gave her "her fire back." EVERYTHING about that scene suggests romance; the music, the fire metaphor, the look on her face, the crying. I respect you all and love you all, but I honestly can not get how people can honestly say that they honestly believe that Buffy and Spike were just friends in Season 7.

Buffy told Spike she loved him and she meant it. Seriously. Next time you try and argue that Buffy was lying in that scene just think about what you're implying regarding Buffy's character.

So, she wouldn't lie about it? No. But she would passionately kiss another man whilst apparently being so in love with someone else? Which for me, does verge on lying and being dishonest. I don't really have much of a problem with disrespecting Buffy's character so it doesn't really make me want to change my mind by suggesting that is what I'm doing. If she was so deeply in love with Spike, the thought of kissing another man would be unthinkable. You don't kiss other people that passionately when you are in love with someone else. And if you do, then those feelings aren't quite so strong as you think they are. To some extent, I do believe as she said, Spike is in her heart, but while she still has such a huge want and desire to kiss Angel, then she is just not madly in love with Spike.

Their friendship in season seven was beautiful, and whilst I think they both had it within themselves to be something more, they were not ready for it yet and Buffy was certainly not in a position to give herself completely to Spike, which is what being in love with someone is all about. She didn't hesitate to remind Angel how she feels about him and for me it just doesn't give enough credibility to her 'I love you' to Spike at the end.

That's my two cents, and it's all you're getting. I need to start saving 😉

 

[thevikingsgirl]

You don't kiss other people that passionately when you are in love with someone else. And if you do, then those feelings aren't quite so strong as you think they are.

*You* don't. That doesn't mean no one can. We've had the "Can you be in love with 2 people" debate before.

 

[ubi4soft]

To your "passionately kiss" argument I respond with the words of Buffy Summers "It was a hello" ("Most people don't use their tongues to say hello") "There were no tongues. Besides, he's gone."

"I love you, Spike" will remain the last spoken words of Buffy even if you like it or not.

 

[thevikingsgirl]

I can understand why people don't believe she loved Spike. I can see why that's a debatable point. I believe her when she said it, though. When she said she loved Riley, I always got the feeling she was trying to convince herself. Not necessarily lying, but more wishing it were so. But the way she looked at Spike in those final moments (and in other times during the season, like saving him from the First, and how she tells him she's not ready for him not to be there) leaves no doubt in my mind.

I think if Angel were to show up at Buffy's doorstep in 30 years and she's married with kids and grandkids or whatever, she would probably greet him in the same way. First love, the one that got away kind of thing. It wouldn't mean she was ready to dump her husband and run off with him. Just one of those relationships that lingers. A lot of people have those, and often they're the least healthy. Plus Angel was the one guy Buffy didn't control. Riley kissed her butt, Spike was head-over-heels, she always had the upper hand but that wasn't true with Angel. That guy who was so bad for you but was always under your skin, and as you grow up you realize it's for the best but that doesn't mean you still don't feel the attraction. I see some of that with Angel and Buffy.

---------- Post added at 09:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:45 AM ----------

She did though. She said it in the episode of Angel I watched last night. Don't remember the name, but she told Angel she loved him (Riley) towards the end. The one with Faith turning herself into the cops.

 

[ubi4soft]

Argh, you're right! Sanctuary ! After Buffy saw Faith in Angel's arms, Angel hits Buffy, said she's not allowed in his city, yeah, I remember now, Buffy said about somebody in her life, somebody she loved (she didn't say it to Riley, that was what confused me), somebody new because she trusted him.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Comments on this post
Kean agrees: And what? because Spuffies can see "it" they must have slept together that last night in Sunnydale? What makes that stance anymore correct than that of the people who don't see it?


That's pretty much "it," yeah. We believe it, because we want to. Bangels deny it, because they DON'T believe it. Joss said that it was left up to the imagination and interpretation of the viewer, and this viewer, as well as a bunch of others, imagined that it happened.

Buffy believed that she, Spike, maybe all of the group, had a very good chance of not surviving the next day's encounter. That was understandable, considering the odds. She didn't want to spend her last living night alone. She wanted to share it, and what pleasure that she could find, with someone else. Would you have preferred that she spend it with Andrew? She wanted one last night of pleasuer. If you can't accept the fact that Buffy loved Spike, was IN LOVE WITH Spike, do you have to deny what almost certainly happened? People facing the possibility of death like that seldom spend the night playing checkers.

Yes, I most certainly believe that Buffy and Spike made love that last night, and I believe that it was slow and sweet and wonderful, and that they spent the rest of the night cuddling and whispering and trying desperately to forget for a brief time what they were about to face. I believe that because I think that they both wanted it, needed it, and deserved it.

But also, above and beyond any normal desire for simple human contact at such a time, they did "it" because Spike was in love with Buffy, and she had finally come to realize what she had been in denial of for months. That she was also in love with him. Why didn't she tell him that night? I have no idea, but I do believe that things happened pretty much that way.

So, yes, because Spuffies believe that Buffy and Spike made love that night, it really happened. For us, it really happened. If the Bangels don't want to see it, well, they're some of those viewers, too, and Joss gave them the option of seenin it just how they wanted to. Just like us.

True he did say that, but after the fade to black, they were fully clothed, thats to powerful an image to go oh yeah, they just had sex, then got dressed again, both of them, into exactly what they were wearing. Why wouldn't they have just showed them having sex, instead they just implied it, becasue they wanted Spuffies to believe it happened, when it looks pretty clear nothing happened!

And Black Eyed Guy, as for why Spike told Buffy that she didn't rreally love him, we Spuffies have a classic argument for that, too. He told her that because he was afraid that if he said that he loved her too, she would have stayed there and died with him. So he said what he said in order to get her out of harm's way. See, we Spuffies have our classic arguments, just like Bangels.

But there is a huge difference between our classics, for Bangels Spike told her he didn't love her, the face he said it in that moment, makes it true.

The reason you gave above makes no sense, Buffy in no way implied she planned on staying there, your totally pulling that out of no where. She still had Dawn, who would be more important that Angel or Spike, there is no way Buffy even contemplated dying with Spike for no reason. If she'd said I'll stay with you, and then he said you don't love me, then yes that might have been the reason, but there was so not a moment where she though of staying any longer then to say goodbye!

Whooo, Black Eye Guy, you are so one-sided. Not to say that I don't stick to my side, but you make pretty definitive statements for a show that never gave any. Denial, perhaps. 😉

No not Denial in anyway, see the difference is what you don't see as clearly defined, I do. Which is why I think they were just good friends.

I think we can all agree that we see and decide what we want to in order to suit our ship. Anyone who wants to step up and say this isn't the case, let's hear it. But I reckon you'll be lying to yourself if you do.

I don't fully agree, I think for Bangels we get allot defined for us, we have Buffy and Angel kissing, we have the cookie speech.
But it's Spuffies that have to change things around, create a possible night together where it is only vaguely hinted at.

And Black Eye Guy, we all know how you feel about Spuffy. I agree with you that they were friends in S7, but not "just" friends. It was obvious to me (and to many, many others) that they were more than friends, just as it was obvious to you that Bangel were more than "just" friends.


Exactly.

True but the point of the back and forth is to show the others where their wrong, and I know the debate goes on, but maybe the reason there is no answer, is because we always eventually give up? Maybe there is an answer.

By not "believing" Buffy's admittance of love to Spike you're doing a dis-service to her character, calling her a liar and dishonest, and in my opinion, disrespecting her. If we are to believe that any character on the show's "I love you's" are subjective, then hell, can't the same be said about Xander and Anya? Angel and Buffy? Tara and Willow? Do you get my jist?

Why in the world would Buffy lie about loving someone? Her character has done nothing but prove that she doesn't tell those three words to just anyone.

Buffy has never been a paragon of good, she has lied and done things wrong, it's in no way disrespectful. It's actually respectful, I see her saying it, as Buffy's ability to give Spike what he wanted, and in that moment Spike realizing thats not what he wanted, and it didn't matter that she didn't.

Believe me, I know all these arguments and none of them make sense to me. As for the argument that she told Spike because "he was going to die anyways" is just lame. Come on, guys! Let's give our Buffy more credit then that! And as for the other "classic" Spuffy-bashing argument, that she told him because she think "he deserved it", well, do I even need to acknowledge that one? Riley deserved her love, too. He gave up his life for her, made her life his, just like Spike did. Yet, she never told Riley she loved him.

Her telling her she loved him becasue he was going to die isn't lame, she was doing what she thought was right, she knew it's what he wanted and she gave it to him. And you definitely need to acknowledge the "Classic" as it's a good point, about the whole situation, exactly as Flannen said, if she had really meant it, she would have said it the night before, or in Touched, but instead she waits till he's about to burn to a crisp. He's dies to save her and everyone else, so she gives him what he wants, and for me it's not spike bashing, because I see it as Spikes greatest moment, he realises he doesn't need her approval.

And of course, my all-time favorite argument; Buffy told Spike she loved him, and she meant it yes, but she only "meant it in a friendly way." Come on. Seriously? Their hands clasped and fire exploded from the heat they had created together. He gave her "her fire back." EVERYTHING about that scene suggests romance; the music, the fire metaphor, the look on her face, the crying. I respect you all and love you all, but I honestly can not get how people can honestly say that they honestly believe that Buffy and Spike were just friends in Season 7.

I've never said that one, and agree thats a stupid one. I just saw all that romance as a thank you.

Buffy told Spike she loved him and she meant it. Seriously. Next time you try and argue that Buffy was lying in that scene just think about what you're implying regarding Buffy's character.

For instance;

How can you not see the love on her face in this cap?



Or here, in 'Dead Things' when she's dreaming about him in her bed? The ways he clings to him, pulls him towards herself, and passionately kisses him?


I just will. never. get. it. That "Buffy didn't love Spike". I never will.

I see love, but that doesn't mean in love, there is a difference, she also has the same face with angel at the start of the episode, check out: http://www.screencap-paradise.com/caps/displayimage.php?pid=16410&fullsize=1

To your "passionately kiss" argument I respond with the words of Buffy Summers "It was a hello" ("Most people don't use their tongues to say hello") "There were no tongues. Besides, he's gone."

"I love you, Spike" will remain the last spoken words of Buffy even if you like it or not.

Em, no their not. They were, but then we got an official continuation of the series and Buffy has said Allot since then.
(And no one better bring up that they aren't taking the comics, because thats an opinion, and I can say a wrong one, as the comics are an 100% official continuation)

and according to the schooting script from BuffyWorld:

She hugs him, letting go of the scythe and putting both arms around his frame for support.

They stand together a moment, then Buffy pulls back, looking Angel in the eyes - and she KISSES HIM. It's tender at first, but builds, a real kiss.

And as they kiss we PULL BACK to reveal SPIKE, watching, alone. He is stunned.

 

[thevikingsgirl]

And see, I think the fact that Buffy sent Angel away, told him that it was partially because of Spike, gave him some silly analogy to cookies to save his feelings, then went home to spend the night with Spike makes Bangels the delusional ones when they claim she still cared more about Angel than Spike by the end of the series. 😉

 

[Wishing Oceans]

OK guys, I'm backkkk! 😀

Gosh, there's a lot of arguments! I wish I was there to argue with you guys. 😀

True he did say that, but after the fade to black, they were fully clothed, thats to powerful an image to go oh yeah, they just had sex, then got dressed again, both of them, into exactly what they were wearing. Why wouldn't they have just showed them having sex, instead they just implied it, becasue they wanted Spuffies to believe it happened, when it looks pretty clear nothing happened!

Yes, but there was another scene, the blackout scene, where she walks down the stairs to Spike with love in her eyes. THAT'S the scene we're talking about. It didn't show them waking up or lying together at all; It skipped right to them on the bus. 🙂 It's completely up to your imagination.

The reason you gave above makes no sense, Buffy in no way implied she planned on staying there, your totally pulling that out of no where. She still had Dawn, who would be more important that Angel or Spike, there is no way Buffy even contemplated dying with Spike for no reason. If she'd said I'll stay with you, and then he said you don't love me, then yes that might have been the reason, but there was so not a moment where she though of staying any longer then to say goodbye!

I think that Buffy knew Spike needed this to really redeem himself, to become a hero. To fulfill his destiny. 🙂 It's not her job to force him to do what he doesn't want to, he earned the right to make his own decisions. But she did TRY to get him to leave with her.

Buffy has never been a paragon of good, she has lied and done things wrong, it's in no way disrespectful. It's actually respectful, I see her saying it, as Buffy's ability to give Spike what he wanted, and in that moment Spike realizing that's not what he wanted, and it didn't matter that she didn't.

She's not a saint, but she has never lied about loving someone, ever. She never even told Tara she loved her.

And as I said in the VERY beginning, Buffy said in Seeing Red the only reason she didn't love Spike was because she didn't trust him. In S7, she told him she believed in him and trusted him. So, clearly she loved him. 🙂

So, she wouldn't lie about it? No. But she would passionately kiss another man whilst apparently being so in love with someone else? Which for me, does verge on lying and being dishonest. I don't really have much of a problem with disrespecting Buffy's character so it doesn't really make me want to change my mind by suggesting that is what I'm doing. If she was so deeply in love with Spike, the thought of kissing another man would be unthinkable. You don't kiss other people that passionately when you are in love with someone else. And if you do, then those feelings aren't quite so strong as you think they are. To some extent, I do believe as she said, Spike is in her heart, but while she still has such a huge want and desire to kiss Angel, then she is just not madly in love with Spike.

I think that the kissing was one, fan service (Joss actually SAID it was fan service), and two, if we want to get into symbolism, showing that although she was in love with Spike she still loved Angel.

Like, as Joss said, Buffy will always love Angel, hence the kissing. But Spike was the person in her life at the moment. She loved them both, but she wasn't going to go ditch Spike simply because her own flame came back. And as we all know, at the time Angel was also in love with

Spoiler

Cordelia.

He wasn't going to ditch her for Buffy either. Like, think of New Moon Rising, since most of you Bangels love Woz too. Willow still loved Oz, but she also was in love with Tara, and wasn't going to leave Tara for an ex. Make sense? 😀

Anyway guys, I'm in school right now so I gotta go, but I'll be back to argue some more in a couple of hours! 😀

 

[ubi4soft]

Em, no their not. They were, but then we got an official continuation of the series and Buffy has said Allot since then.
(And no one better bring up that they aren't taking the comics, because thats an opinion, and I can say a wrong one, as the comics are an 100% official continuation)

Like what? The threesome panel? Buffy missing the sex (Parker, Riley or the first time Angel), the dream cubes aka the most important moments in her life including Beljoxa's eye she had never seen (courtesy of Jeanty) ? the dream sequence cca Season 1 recognizing that she really needs Angel senses (he's so long time gone of her life), or not being able to distinguish between Angel and Spike (Always Darkest)?

I can understand why people don't believe she loved Spike.

Honestly? I don't and is my belief that they choose to deny all the signs through S7 (already mentioned in this thread), the "I love you", the "Buffy & Spike love theme" (couple not in love do not have a love theme), the flaming hands, several Joss Whedon statements that Buffy loves Spike.

We had a few things in mind with Season 7. One, everybody was tired of being depressed, including us. Two, this was the last season. Three, let's get back to where we started. Let's go back to the beginning. Not the word, not the bang, the real beginning. And the real beginning was girl power. The real beginning is, what does it mean to be a Slayer? And, not to feel guilty about the power, but having seen the dark side of it, and finding the light again. To explore the idea of the Slayer fully and to see a very grown up and romantic and confusing relationship that isn't about power, but actually genuinely beautiful between two people in the form of Buffy and Spike. -- Joss Whedon

Whedon stated that "in time what went on with Spike and Buffy was very textured and complicated." The relationship, as it evolved in Season 7, "has a romantic/sexual angle but not a physical one." -- Joss Whedon (San Diego 2003)

At long last, Angel is returning to the show. How does that affect Buffy's ongoing love-hate relationship with Spike?
I wanted to make definite statements about both relationships but I had to do it in the same episode. It was weird. I had a lot of structural juggling to do to figure out how to make sense of the two most important men in Buffy's life showing up at once. -- Joss Whedon (5-03 Entertainment Weekly)

And this was the trick: how to get her in the sack with Spike half an act after Angel had left. But, you know, the experience... you know, I've said this probably a hundred times, probably all of them on the audio commentaries to these damn episodes, the trick is always to make the audience go through exactly what she's going through. It's confusing to us, emotionally, that we should bounce from one to the other, and it's confusing to her. But... Spike is the person in her life right now. -- Joss Whedon ("Chosen" Commentary)

The great Marsters with a chemistry with Buffy that is just completely different from Angel's, and different than David's, and yet works very, very well. He's more on Buffy's level. He's more... Their vulnerabilities come out, and I don't just mean as characters, but as actors around each other. And that really works, it works on a very different level. Their relationship has clearly been through a lot -- much more, in fact, than her relationship with Angel, in a way. And you feel that history with these two, and they bring it to the set every time they come to work and that's why we still came to work, because they did. -- Joss Whedon ("Chosen" Commentary)

This bit here I did actually add on set, not just the picture of Butthead on the punching bag, but this, where I said I wanted to get a couple of shots -- we were going fast -- and that one I didn't know if I was going to use, the two of them, and to me, it's almost the most important shot in the show, because it really shows, you know, the mystery of their relationship. And that's one where I wanted the audience to fill in the blanks. I wanted them... I wanted whatever you want to have happened to have happened. If people believe that on their last night together they made love, great. If they believe that on their last night together they talked all night, great. If they believe that they had a fight, great. Whatever it is, it's up to the viewer and I think the viewer has earned that, and I love that elliptical nature of their last night together. I think there should be work for the viewer to do in that sense, emotionally, because I think that makes it more textured, and that shot of the two of them looking at each other I just find beautiful. -- Joss Whedon ("Chosen" Commentary)

I thought this was a sort of romantic image, the two of them. We actually did it with real fire, but their hands were all gelled up and you could tell, so this was added in CGI and it looks beautiful. I thought it was a nice comment on their relationship. But what I basically told [James and Sarah] was: "Play the romance. Be proud of him. Love him when you say you love him. Love her when you say she doesn't love you. Forget about the crumbling world. For that period of time, it doesn't exist. It's a cinematic trick, but it's a necessary emotional one." -- Joss Whedon ("Chosen" Commentary)

Buffy was in love with Spike the moment their hands clasped. --Joss Whedon (San Diego Convention)

I won't be using the ancillary characters from "Angel" unless I absolutely think that nobody else can fit this bill. Spike and Angel I will definitely use, but sparingly. But I would do that anyway. You don't want to use it up by having Spike standing around in the background of every frame. He means so much to Buffy, so did Angel, that you want to save them for the big hits. -- Joss Whedon (GeekMonthly)

[Buffy] loves Spike, or maybe Satsu, I'm not sure sometimes-- Joss Whedon - Q/A Cultural Humanist 2009

This is all I need to say about it and I'll stop here. Feel free to disagree (I don't care)

 

[thevikingsgirl]

I love this one:

...what I basically told [James and Sarah] was: "Play the romance. Be proud of him. Love him when you say you love him. Love her when you say she doesn't love you. Forget about the crumbling world. For that period of time, it doesn't exist. It's a cinematic trick, but it's a necessary emotional one." -- Joss Whedon ("Chosen" Commentary)

That came through loud and clear to me.