Spuffy - Selfish Love?

[zobothehobo]

Ok, so I've heard people say time and time again that Spuffy is selfish. Most recently in the thread This Year's Girl created about her inability to choose between Spuffy and Bangel because of her ability to see the ups and downs of both equally. ranidann said "And this exemplifies why I love Bangel. Spuffy is selfish; spike would never sacrifice his own pleasure for someone else." And once again, I was overcome with the familiar confusion of "what is she talking about?" I just don't get how Spuffy is so much more selfish than any other love, particularly on Spike's side.

I can sorta see season 6. Buffy used him; he manipulated her to believe she had to. It took me a really long time to see the second, I worked really hard at it. In my latest re-watch, I looked for that and paid special attention to it, and I still only partially see it... But I do see it now.

But what about seasons 5 and 7 (and the soul at the end of season 6)? This is where I get really confused. I've heard people say that because Spike changed with Buffy in mind, because he got his soul to give her what she deserves, he was doing it for selfish reasons because she wanted to be with her... But if you're going to say that, how can you say that not everything anyone ever does for love is selfish? Example: you have a fight with your girlfriend/boyfriend/etc and you feel bad about it... You feel about it, so you apologize in some way. Using this logic, couldn't one say "you apologized so they'd take you back and therefore the apology is selfish." Or how about any time anyone makes any changes to themselves for love. When my mother's husband moved in, he was a jerk. He thought about himself and my mother only. It took a while, but finally after he completely wrecked mother's day last year (to the point I'm dreading this year), my mother stood up and said that was no longer acceptable. That we, her children, mattered too. Almost instantly we saw some changes in his behavior. He stopped treating us like "the help" and the "extras" lying around the house, and started treating us like people. Sometimes he messed up, but he was actively trying to change for my mother. I thought that was just something he should have done anyway, but the fact that he was changing, even if for my mom, meant something. Using the logic applied to Spuffy's love being selfish... you could say that treating me and my sisters well was selfish because he wanted to stay with my mom. That's just such a bleak way of looking at love.

How about the selfishness of Bangel through this logic? The biggest one that's glaring me in the face is season 3. From the beginning of season 3 Bangel with Buffy keeping Angel's return a secret (which I do get... but it is selfish) it was selfish. The only selfless part of Bangel season 3 is when Angel left. And honestly, I think it's a tad debatable (and I think that because I've debated it with my sister). Even the concept of Bangel season 3 though is selfish. I mean after the events of season 2, that Buffy would even continue a relationship with him is selfish beyond belief.

Using the logic of Spuffy being selfish because Spike changed for Buffy.. the changes Angel made to his life, to his lifestyle, just so he could be there in Sunnydale... selfish. Even the fact he was there is selfish. Oh and then he didn't tell Buffy he was a vampire straight away... he lied.

Hell even Angel showing up at the prom (that lovely event voted one of the most romantic gestures on some list a couple days ago) can be seen as selfish because Angel wanted Buffy to be happy.

My point is, all love is selfish if we look at it that way. Every present we buy, every romantic gesture we make can be seen as selfish because we want to be with the other person and/or we want them to be happy. But we do! Spike did! Angel did! Buffy did! And there's nothing wrong with it. That's what happens when you love someone. You want to be close to them and you want them to love you back and most importantly, you want them to be happy. So how is Spuffy so much more selfish than any other love? I honestly don't understand.

Wow, that turned out a lot longer than I expected!!!

 

[white avenger]

Hell even Angel showing up at the prom (that lovely event voted one of the most romantic gestures on some list a couple days ago) can be seen as selfish because Angel wanted Buffy to be happy.

I've always wondered what Angel would have done if he had shown up there at the Prom and found Buffy dad found another date (besides Faith)

But, yeah, I can see where love or romance could be seen as a selfish act, if the only purpose (as it sometimes, sadly, is)is to assure one's own happiness. True love, however, at least my concept of it, is more selfLESS than selfISH, because it quite often involves putting someone else's wishes above your own, whether in something as simple as going to see the funny movie when you really wanted to see the action thriller science fiction blockbuster, or as important as whether or not to commit to spending the rest of your lives together. There are elements of both Bangel and Spuffy that could be interpreted as selfish, whether on the part of Angel, Spike, or even Buffy, but, in defense of both relationships, I think that the selflessness outweighed the selfishness. Each made sacrifices for the other, and sacrificed their own happiness so that the other could be safe and happy. And each had their selfish moments. That's what makes the Bangel/Spuffy debate so much fun.

Both sides can praise the selfless acts of their favorite ship while pointing out the selfish acts of the other.

Sadly for the Bangels... No, I'm not gonna go there for now. Maybe later.

 

[zobothehobo]

I've always wondered what Angel would have done if he had shown up there at the Prom and found Buffy dad found another date (besides Faith)

But, yeah, I can see where love or romance could be seen as a selfish act, if the only purpose (as it sometimes, sadly, is)is to assure one's own happiness. True love, however, at least my concept of it, is more selfLESS than selfISH, because it quite often involves putting someone else's wishes above your own, whether in something as simple as going to see the funny movie when you really wanted to see the action thriller science fiction blockbuster, or as important as whether or not to commit to spending the rest of your lives together. There are elements of both Bangel and Spuffy that could be interpreted as selfish, whether on the part of Angel, Spike, or even Buffy, but, in defense of both relationships, I think that the selflessness outweighed the selfishness. Each made sacrifices for the other, and sacrificed their own happiness so that the other could be safe and happy. And each had their selfish moments. That's what makes the Bangel/Spuffy debate so much fun.

Both sides can praise the selfless acts of their favorite ship while pointing out the selfish acts of the other.

Sadly for the Bangels... No, I'm not gonna go there for now. Maybe later.

I agree but my point in this thread is I feel like like Spuffy's love is torn apart as being abnormally selfish because the selfless things that are done are seen as selfish because Spike wants to be with Buffy. You could apply that same logic to going to see a funny movie when you really wanted to see the action thriller science fiction blockbuster, couldn't you? You went to see the movie you didn't want to see because you wanted to be with your person, not because you wanted to do something nice for them. That's twisted logic, but it's the same logic used on Spuffy time and time again.

 

[The Unspoken]

In season 6, Spike exploited Buffy's fragile emotional state and tried to manipulate her into staying in a relationship with him and when that failed, he tried to rape her. There's also the not so minor fact that he enjoyed killing and eating people. Doesn't get much more selfish than that.

Of course, he didn't have a soul, so it's no biggie. 🙂

 

[zobothehobo]

In season 6, Spike exploited Buffy's fragile emotional state and tried to manipulate her into staying in a relationship with him and when that failed, he tried to rape her. There's also the not so minor fact that he enjoyed killing and eating people. Doesn't get much more selfish than that.

Of course, he didn't have a soul, so it's no biggie. 🙂

I hit enter too quickly... it was supposed to say "Did you even read my whole post?"

 

[The Unspoken]

I hit enter too quickly... it was supposed to say "Did you even read my whole post?"

And here I was thinking you made a smilie, like ;D.

I did read your whole post, but my post addressed why people might see Spuffy as more selfish than Bangel. I don't recall either Buffy or Angel deliberately damaging the other's (mental) health, aside from life or death situations like 'Graduation Day'. And you could argue that Buffy endangered everyone's lives when she refused to keep trigger!Spike unchained for half a season.

 

[xfivebyfive]

I did read your whole post, but my post addressed why people might see Spuffy as more selfish than Bangel. I don't recall either Buffy or Angel deliberately damaging the other's (mental) health, aside from life or death situations like 'Graduation Day'. And you could argue that Buffy endangered everyone's lives when she refused to keep trigger!Spike unchained for half a season.

You could also argue that Buffy not staking Angel in Innocence endangered lives, and oh look Jenny died!

Neither relationship is perfect. At times both were selfish. You can say Spuffy is selfish but so is Bangel for all the reasons Zobo listed and probably more.

 

[randiann]

I had a whole long post typed ot, and then my phone died on me. But it was somewhat similar to wa's first post (gasp! Shock!). What makes an act selfish or selfless depends on whose intentions you have in mind.

For the most part, I don't have a problem with spuffy season 7. But I do with spuffy season 5/6. It's much about short term gratification instead of what is best for everybody. And that's what spuffy is based on. In my eyes, it's very hard to recover something that began already damaged and self destructive. Both buffy and spike used each other, and admit to it. Using others in this way is selfish. That to me is what spuffy's foundation is, which is why I see it as selfish.

Spike admits to not being a thinker, and to thinking with one head over the other. He doesn't often think actions through, and lives in the moment. He is all about the short term. Angel thinks about buffy's well being and future, and acts with this in mind in season 3 and iwry. He's doing things not because it benefits him, but because it is best for the one he loves. Selfless. I can't ever see spike doing what angel did in iwry. He is too concerned with the now instead of the future.

 

[zobothehobo]

And here I was thinking you made a smilie, like ;D.

I did read your whole post, but my post addressed why people might see Spuffy as more selfish than Bangel. I don't recall either Buffy or Angel deliberately damaging the other's (mental) health, aside from life or death situations like 'Graduation Day'. And you could argue that Buffy endangered everyone's lives when she refused to keep trigger!Spike unchained for half a season.

I still think you're missing the point of my OP. The point is that aside from season 6, Spuffy is called selfish. The post I referred to in my first paragraph by randiann focuses on season 7. People say that Spike changed, Spike did this or that... whatever... so that he could be with Buffy or so that she'd love him. But we all do that... when we show our love to someone in any way one could make it a selfish act. So how is Spuffy seasons 5 and 7 particularly selfish?

 

[The Unspoken]

You could also argue that Buffy not staking Angel in Innocence endangered lives, and oh look Jenny died!

The relationship ended in 'Innocence', when Buffy found out that Angel had turned into Angelus. Buffy couldn't bring herself to kill Angelus, but that's a matter entirely different.

Neither relationship is perfect. At times both were selfish. You can say Spuffy is selfish but so is Bangel for all the reasons Zobo listed and probably more.

I never said anything to the contrary. I only pointed out that for a prolonged period of time (season 6), Spuffy was selfish (and unhealthy and self-destructive etc.). It couldn't be anything else simply by virtue of the fact that one of the people in the relationship lacked a soul.

 

[randiann]

obothehobo agrees: I don't see IWRY as a selfess act at all. I see it as mind rape to be honest. The fact that Buffy never found out about that day angers me very much

Okay, I don't see it this way, bit that's your opinion and you are entitled to it. Call it selfless mind rape then, cause he still did it thinking of buffy and not himself. Can you explain to me how this benefits angel?

And season 5 spuffy can hardly be used as an argument for selfless love. It's all about obsession, not love.

Season 7 does have it's moments, but it still isn't my favorite ship. Never will be hecate of what it's based on.

Love isn't about changing yourself to make someone like you. It's about a symbiotic relationship between people that benefits both parties and involves making sure the one you love is happy, healthy, and has the best you can give them. It's about thinking about what someone else needs more than what you want.

 

[WakingNightmare]

Alright, I'm just gonna post my two (or twenty) cents, then I'm out.

Yes, it was selfish. Spike and Buffy's relationship was harmful and destructive to themselves, each other and the people are them. But for me, it's not about that. It's about two people who are mortal enemies and have hurt each other horribly in the past and still, through all that, manage to build a trusting and caring emotional connection out of that.

Did the people who support Buffy and Angel ignore all the bad that happened in their relationship? I hope not. Do Twillow's try to convince themselves it was romantic when Willow raped Tara's mind. I didn't.

I'll be honest. After Seeing Red, I tossed my Spuffy hat in and renounced their ship forever. It had been a long time coming in season six but that just did it for me. I didn't try to ignore it, or try to whitewash Spike. I thought about it over and over, from both perspectives and I genuinely couldn't support them anymore.

But I still do.

Season seven amazed me. How many other relationships could move past that? Not many, I don't think. But Spike and Buffy did. He made himself become a better man for her and she, eventually forgave him. She let him into her home, back into her heart, went out of her way to protect him... after all they'd been through, they still had it in them to get past it.

And that's what makes all the bad worth it. Was it selfish? Yes, very much. Did it move past selfishness and make it to point of trust, respect and most importantly, love? It totally did. And that in itself is amazing.

(And hey, for the record, if Buffy manages to truly forgive Angel in S9, I'm probably gonna wind up shipping them. Going from betrayal and back to trust would be a thing of great beauty.)

Alright, she's done. Honest.

 

[Icarium]

Giles put it best (albeit when talking about other people): "I know it's not love. It's obsession. Selfish, banal obsession." Spike thinks he knows what's good for Buffy but he can't possibly know that lacking a soul. Rather similar to Amy thinking the way to Xander's heart is turning Buffy into a rat. 🙂 Then in S7 Spike is Buffy's confidant pretty much because he is a yes-man who wouldn't challenge her insane plans.

 

[StarSlayer]

I know I've been MIA for a while, but last time I checked, Spike does sacrifice his own pleasure/happiness/well-being (whatever you want to call it) for Buffy. He takes a serious beating from Glory to protect both Buffy and Dawn in "Intervention," and this was when she had already shut him out. He would have died for Buffy if it meant Glory never found out Dawn was the key. He then stayed around Sunnydale to protect Dawn, after Buffy died. If he really cared about his own pleasure after Buffy died, he would have left. But, he essentially changed his life and his behavior at that point. Finally, there's "Chosen." The ultimate sacrifice. Spike sacrifices himself for Buffy and the world. I'll never understand why some think these acts (and some others) are strictly selfish. Sorry. 🙂

When it comes to Spuffy, of course there are things that can be considered selfish, but that can be said about any relationship. IMO, it's really extreme to say Spuffy was always selfish because that's not true at all as far as I'm concerned. 🙂

Love isn't about changing yourself to make someone like you. It's about a symbiotic relationship between people that benefits both parties and involves making sure the one you love is happy, healthy, and has the best you can give them. It's about thinking about what someone else needs more than what you want.

I think that in certain relationships, you may need to change parts of yourself for the better in order to give the other person what they need and/or want. You learn to compromise, sacrifice, and work through things because no relationship is perfect. Love is certainly the foundation for a strong relationship, but without compromise and sacrifice, I think the relationship won't last (in my personal experiences at least).

 

[randiann]

At the same time, there is a way to compromise and sacrifice in a relationship without changing who you are. You ar ue very right that a relationship requires these things. But compromising on an issue is different than changing your identity. If a guy is only going to like you if you weigh 20 lbs less than you do, and so you work and work to attain this, then that's not really love. That's changing yourself whereas compromise instead might be working together to eat healthier in order to improve yourselves instead of eating out every night(that is a bad example). Or compromising on a budget, etc etc. One's can be seen as harmful, while the other one benefits the two of you.

I think part of the reason spike acts the way he does when dawn is involved is because he feels a very older brotherly love towards her (i had a whole paragraph about it in the past post I lost). He starts this because of buffy, but his actions pretty much anytime dawn us involved become about her and what she wants/needs instead of spike. This becomes completely separate from his and buffy's relationship in my opinion.

 

[Marisa]

If Spuffy is selfish so is Bangel. I am one of those people who doesn't hate Bangel and love Spuffy but I will say that yes Spuffy was selfish in season six to me but that was on BOTH parts IMO.

I also think Bangel was very selfish as well. Buffy could not take her self away from it and let her love for Angel outweigh all for a while. I would say the only reason why Angel wasn't selfish is because he left but I don't use that because well we all know he was getting his own show. If he wasn't he probably still would have been on Buffy IMO.
I think both relationships were unhealthy and selfish at times yes but I do not think one is not selfish and the other is. Both of those relationships Buffy could have done without in my honest opinion. I think they both messed her up in some form or another.

Overall is Spuffy selfish yes, but not any more selfish than Bangel to me.

---------- Post added at 12:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:25 PM ----------

In season 6, Spike exploited Buffy's fragile emotional state and tried to manipulate her into staying in a relationship with him and when that failed, he tried to rape her. There's also the not so minor fact that he enjoyed killing and eating people. Doesn't get much more selfish than that.

Of course, he didn't have a soul, so it's no biggie. 🙂

Angel was the exact same way. Who mentored Spike? Angel he even says it in Angel S5. So to point out only his problems and say "he eats people" is kind of wrong to me.
What was the first thing Angel did after his soul was gone? He went and ate a innocent woman he didn't even waste a second.

I am not even going to get into the rape thing because then there will be another big debate about that and it will get off topic quickly.

 

[StarSlayer]

At the same time, there is a way to compromise and sacrifice in a relationship without changing who you are. You ar ue very right that a relationship requires these things. But compromising on an issue is different than changing your identity. If a guy is only going to like you if you weigh 20 lbs less than you do, and so you work and work to attain this, then that's not really love. That's changing yourself whereas compromise instead might be working together to eat healthier in order to improve yourselves instead of eating out every night(that is a bad example). Or compromising on a budget, etc etc. One's can be seen as harmful, while the other one benefits the two of you.

Honestly, I think that when you change parts of yourself for the better, you do somewhat change your identity. I say that based on personal experience. The same can be said when two people in a relationship make compromises. They somewhat change their identity by becoming better versions of that identity. It doesn't mean they really change who they are, but rather they change the things about themselves that will make them a better person and make the other person happy, which then can lead to a strong and better relationship.

For me, this is one of the reasons why I love Spuffy. Buffy and Spike become better versions of themselves by the end, and they got to that point together.

I think part of the reason spike acts the way he does when dawn is involved is because he feels a very older brotherly love towards her (i had a whole paragraph about it in the past post I lost). He starts this because of buffy, but his actions pretty much anytime dawn us involved become about her and what she wants/needs instead of spike. This becomes completely separate from his and buffy's relationship in my opinion.

I definitely see a brotherly love that Spike has towards Dawn. Spike will protect anything Buffy loves, and one of things Buffy loves the most is Dawn. So, I agree that he starts protecting Dawn more because of his love for Buffy. Yet, I still don't see that as selfish. By putting Dawn's wants/needs/safety in front of his own especially after Buffy dies, that's still putting someone else's happiness before his own IMO.

 

[randiann]

His protecting dawn is very unselfish, sorry if that wasn't clear, but I see that as becoming unrelated to his "romantic"relationship with buffy. But I still don't agree that you change yourself for someone else. You grow as people and evolve, but becoming someone you aren't in an effort to please another is not part of a healthy relationship in my opinion.

 

[StarSlayer]

His protecting dawn is very unselfish, sorry if that wasn't clear, but I see that as becoming unrelated to his "romantic"relationship with buffy.

Ah, got it. 🙂 I thought you were saying it was selfish.

But I still don't agree that you change yourself for someone else. You grow as people and evolve, but becoming someone you aren't in an effort to please another is not part of a healthy relationship in my opinion.

That's the thing. In regards to Spike, I don't think he was trying to become someone he wasn't, particularly by the end. I think he was trying to become the person he could be or maybe really was without the influences of Angelus and Drusilla, especially once he got his soul. I think that in the beginning, when Spike fell in love with Buffy, he did make efforts to please her in ways he thought would work (but really didn't). Yet, "Intervention" was a huge turning point.

For me, I don't think one necessarily changes themselves all together, but I do think they change parts of themselves when it comes to making a relationship better and stronger. Maybe that's a bit more clear. 🙂

 

[VisionGirl]

Although I did use the term "selfish" in regards to a Spuffy situation on another thread, I don't use that term to classify the entire relationship. But it is kind of funny to me that we're all shocked & surprised that we're using the term "selfish" to apply to a soulless, evil monster LOL! (I'm referring to someone's comment that Angel/us drank someone's blood the minute he lost his soul. Well, duh!).

What I said on the other thread is that I do think there's some selfishness in Buffy's saying "Because I'm not ready for you to not be here" in s7 when Spike offers to leave. Spike is doing something selfless, taking himself out of the situation (especially when they're still unsure about the chip & the trigger). Buffy is unable to completely give herself to him, but wants him to stay, for her. Obviously he doesn't seem to mind, and I think her feelings do evolve in s7, but that kind of bugs me a little. Buffy's attitude toward Spike bothers me more than his feelings/actions/attitudes toward her. After all, before s7, he was still soulless.

All in all, we can't expect these relationships to be completely true examples of real-life relationships. They are tragically doomed relationships between Slayer & man-pire.

And for the record, while I don't think that Angel's decision in IWRY was selfish, I do question his decision to leave at the end of Buffy s3. I don't know if I'd call it selfish, but it was arrogant to make that decision on Buffy's behalf (something everyone seemed to be doing at the time- her mother, Wesley, Angel)- and it pissed me off!