States Petition To Leave The Union

[white avenger]

How many of you have seen or are aware of this?

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petitions
"As of Saturday November 10, 2012, 15 States have petitioned the Obama Administration for withdrawal from the United States of America in order to create its own government. States following this action include: Louisiana, Texas, Montana, North Dakota, Indiana, Mississippi, Kentucky, North Carolina, Alabama, Florida, Georgia, New Jersey, Colorado, Oregon and New York. These States have requested that the Obama Administration grant a peaceful withdrawal from the United States." - Submitted by [MENTION=8767]Bob[/MENTION]BYTHEBLUE
Total Views : 156971
Vi

Granted, these petitions are only signed by a few thousand citizens in each state (currently just under 25000 in my native Georgia), but, still, to the best of my knowledge, this is the first time that we have ever had anything like this, of this scale within my lifetime.

 

[whitewolf]

I've heard about this and honestly I find it rather pointless. So Texas has enough to get a response from the President. Big deal. He will just cite Texas V. White where the Supreme Court ruled that States do not have a right to secession and that will be the end of the legal issue.

Furthermore, let's say Texas tries it. I'm using them as an example because if any State could make it alone it's Texas. Let's assume the U.S. let's them go their way without military reprisal. Texas, like several conservative states, receives more in federal aid than it pays in via taxes so they won't be saving money on that end.

As for their economy, it is true they have a strong economy, but the U.S. would probably embargo them and I doubt many countries would risk making the U.S. mad just to trade with Texas. So Texas won't be able to trade with countries that have friendly U.S. relations so where do they turn? Latin America. However, how willing will Texas be to trade with the various leftist governments in power there?

Speaking of Latin America. There are a lot of federal border patrol agents along the Texas border to help combat the drug trade. If you think TX has a problem with the drug cartels now, just wait until the U.S. pulls out of Texas.

 

[Robb Stark]

How many of you have seen or are aware of this?

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petitions
"As of Saturday November 10, 2012, 15 States have petitioned the Obama Administration for withdrawal from the United States of America in order to create its own government. States following this action include: Louisiana, Texas, Montana, North Dakota, Indiana, Mississippi, Kentucky, North Carolina, Alabama, Florida, Georgia, New Jersey, Colorado, Oregon and New York. These States have requested that the Obama Administration grant a peaceful withdrawal from the United States." - Submitted by [MENTION=8767]Bob[/MENTION]BYTHEBLUE
Total Views : 156971
Vi

Granted, these petitions are only signed by a few thousand citizens in each state (currently just under 25000 in my native Georgia), but, still, to the best of my knowledge, this is the first time that we have ever had anything like this, of this scale within my lifetime.

I've seen headlines about it, but I've sort of dismissed it as a political stunt, kind of like something Donald Trump does every few months when his name strays from the headlines for too long.

To my knowledge there isn't a single state that has even close to a majority of its citizens actually wanting a secession from the U.S., and the ones that really do want it probably have zero clue whatsoever as to what that would actually entail and how difficult establishing your own nation would be. I don't think any state legislators have acknowledged it at all either.

And asking President Obama for a "peaceful withdrawal"? Come on. This was tried a few hundred years ago in a fairly famous incident. If these states actually tried to leave the Union, there would be a very brief civil war and the secessionists would get destroyed, just like they did last time, only years sooner.

Seriously, in this day and age, does anyone seriously think that the states in question would be able to mobilize their citizens into a real military force? The United States centralized its military centuries ago, in part to avoid this very problem.

No shot.

---------- Post added at 09:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:16 PM ----------

As for their economy, it is true they have a strong economy, but the U.S. would probably embargo them and I doubt many countries would risk making the U.S. mad just to trade with Texas. So Texas won't be able to trade with countries that have friendly U.S. relations so where do they turn? Latin America. However, how willing will Texas be to trade with the various leftist governments in power there?

This is something I forgot to say. Any state that even attempted to secede from the U.S. would be instantly embargoed and would basically be helpless. In no conceivable fashion would this work.

Plus, being on the U.N.'s Security Council, the U.S. would never, ever recognize any state that attempted to leave the Union. Ever. That would, with their veto power and massive influence, prevent the entire United Nations from recognizing them. It just wouldn't happen. Not that the U.N. has any real power these days anyways but still...

 

[Vamp Jenny]

This has been going on for years in Quebec, some people wanting to be free from Canada, some won't.

Believe me, it will take a while before any of those states even has the slightest chance to withdraw from the US. And by then, Obama won't even be president anymore...

 

[white avenger]

I've seen headlines about it, but I've sort of dismissed it as a political stunt, kind of like something Donald Trump does every few months when his name strays from the headlines for too long.

To my knowledge there isn't a single state that has even close to a majority of its citizens actually wanting a secession from the U.S., and the ones that really do want it probably have zero clue whatsoever as to what that would actually entail and how difficult establishing your own nation would be. I don't think any state legislators have acknowledged it at all either.

And asking President Obama for a "peaceful withdrawal"? Come on. This was tried a few hundred years ago in a fairly famous incident. If these states actually tried to leave the Union, there would be a very brief civil war and the secessionists would get destroyed, just like they did last time, only years sooner.

Seriously, in this day and age, does anyone seriously think that the states in question would be able to mobilize their citizens into a real military force? The United States centralized its military centuries ago, in part to avoid this very problem.

No shot.

---------- Post added at 09:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:16 PM ----------



This is something I forgot to say. Any state that even attempted to secede from the U.S. would be instantly embargoed and would basically be helpless. In no conceivable fashion would this work.

Plus, being on the U.N.'s Security Council, the U.S. would never, ever recognize any state that attempted to leave the Union. Ever. That would, with their veto power and massive influence, prevent the entire United Nations from recognizing them. It just wouldn't happen. Not that the U.N. has any real power these days anyways but still...

I agree, there's nowhere near any kind of a majority of citizens in any state to make this much more than a political statement (I don't see it as merely a stunt), but still, as I said before, it's the first time to my knowledge that anything like this has happened with the possible exception of the Civil War, and, if anything that extreme were to happen today, I have little doubt that the Federal government would do exactly now what they did then. They would refuse to honor the secession and place the states in question under Federal control, whether it could be done peaceably or would require military action No question of embargo would ever come up. Losing that many states would result in a loss of tax revenue that would bankrupt what would be left of the United States (not that we aren't doing a pretty good job of doing that already)

As for asking Obama to "peaceably withdraw," that would be jumping fron the frying pan into the fire for anyone who might request it, because we would then have Joe Biden as President and almost certainly Hilary Clinton as his V P.

 

[BuffyElevated]

All of this is absolutely rediculous to me. I'm not saying everyone has to be happy that Obama got reelected but going to this level simply out of protest?? It feels like a bunch of kids throwing a fit because they didn't get their way about something.

 

[Pike]

I fear that there will be a petition every four years after the election.

Where are the petitions to deport these people haha 😛

I highly doubt anything will be done and this will die off. I believe I live
in one of the states that has started a petition. They won't make any
moves on allowing people to leave the Union in the same way they won't
charge any of these people for treason. I wish it would blow over already.

To me it just comes across as sore-losing.

One of those funny online pictures. Just passing the humor. If it upsets anyone I would be more than glad to remove it.

http://sphotos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/405136_429332223788901_1896353698_n.jpg



From what I am gathering, only a few thousand have signed in. While that sounds like a lot, its not in comparison to the national or even state level for many of these states.

On top of that, it doesn't take much to create a petition. I feel like by writing about it I am refueling the topic to stay around longer, lol

 

[white avenger]

From what I am gathering, only a few thousand have signed in. While that sounds like a lot, its not in comparison to the national or even state level for many of these states.

Something like 25000 signatures in Georgia. I'm not sure about the oher petitions.

But I think that a good bit of the problem here isn't just about Obama, but dissatisfaction with our whole Presidential electoral system in general. Why do we need an Electoral College to determine who is elected President? Popular vote determines the winner of every other race, so why not this one? We have actually had Presidents elected (Bush was the most recent one) who DID NOT have the greatest number of popular votes. Other than serving to make certain states, like California (55 votes) and Texas (38)more able to negotiate for greater perks from the new President than South Dakota or Vermont (6 each) what is the need for having electoral votes, that don't necessarily reflect the total number of popular votes, decide something this important?

 

[whitewolf]

Something like 25000 signatures in Georgia. I'm not sure about the oher petitions.

But I think that a good bit of the problem here isn't just about Obama, but dissatisfaction with our whole Presidential electoral system in general. Why do we need an Electoral College to determine who is elected President? Popular vote determines the winner of every other race, so why not this one? We have actually had Presidents elected (Bush was the most recent one) who DID NOT have the greatest number of popular votes. Other than serving to make certain states, like California (55 votes) and Texas (38)more able to negotiate for greater perks from the new President than South Dakota or Vermont (6 each) what is the need for having electoral votes, that don't necessarily reflect the total number of popular votes, decide something this important?

The Electoral College sucks, in fact the whole American system sucks. Give me parliamentary system with proportional representation any day over our current system. Anyway back to the point of the thread. If Romney had won, I don't think we would be seeing these petitions. Liberal states didn't petition to secede during the Bush years.

 

[white avenger]

Liberal states didn't petition to secede during the Bush years.

No, but Alec Baldwin did threaten to leave the United States if Bush Jr was elected. He never left, but he threatened to. You just can't trust liberals to follow through on their threats.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

Don't knock the electoral college - it prevents someone with localized regional support from getting control of the government. Suppose you had a candidate that could get every vote in California but had limited support elsewhere. You would have what we have in Canada - elections won in the maritimes or Quebec or the prairies or BC with no support in large parts of the country. The US is much more united than Canada simply because prospective candidates have to appeal to all the areas.

 

[white avenger]

Don't knock the electoral college - it prevents someone with localized regional support from getting control of the government. Suppose you had a candidate that could get every vote in California but had limited support elsewhere. You would have what we have in Canada - elections won in the maritimes or Quebec or the prairies or BC with no support in large parts of the country. The US is much more united than Canada simply because prospective candidates have to appeal to all the areas.

I'm not as much knocking the electoral college as I'm asking why the simple popular vote is sufficient for any other elected office, so why does the Presidency have to be different? If there's any office in our government that should require the majority of the citizens' support. the Presidency should be the one. Instead, it's quite possible for a candidate to assume office while his opponant actually gets more popular votes.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

None of the states have actually petitioned for secession... just individuals. The White House has a website where any citizen can submit any petition for review. All it takes is one person to start the petition, and then anyone can sign it.

There are a few thousand secession advocates in every state, I'm sure. But most of the people signing these are just people venting steam because their side lost the election. The same thing happened on the other side back when Bush was president.

 

[Pike]

Something like 25000 signatures in Georgia. I'm not sure about the oher petitions.

But I think that a good bit of the problem here isn't just about Obama, but dissatisfaction with our whole Presidential electoral system in general. Why do we need an Electoral College to determine who is elected President? Popular vote determines the winner of every other race, so why not this one? We have actually had Presidents elected (Bush was the most recent one) who DID NOT have the greatest number of popular votes. Other than serving to make certain states, like California (55 votes) and Texas (38)more able to negotiate for greater perks from the new President than South Dakota or Vermont (6 each) what is the need for having electoral votes, that don't necessarily reflect the total number of popular votes, decide something this important?

I'm not one who knows incredibly much about politics. I do know that people are still fired up about the Bush election. This recent election, Obama won the popular vote (62,615,406-59,142,004) and the electoral vote (332-206) so I still wonder why the huge outcry immediately after the election.

I believe the electoral college is just a way of speeding up the election. Its been this way since the elections have started in the States. The state typically votes for the popular vote in each state. To me it just speeds it up. I think four times in history has a president won with the popular vote and not the electoral vote. After looking into how it actually works I don't even know why these cases happened.

---------- Post added at 08:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:05 AM ----------

None of the states have actually petitioned for secession... just individuals. The White House has a website where any citizen can submit any petition for review. All it takes is one person to start the petition, and then anyone can sign it.

There are a few thousand secession advocates in every state, I'm sure. But most of the people signing these are just people venting steam because their side lost the election. The same thing happened on the other side back when Bush was president.

I meant to mention this as well. These petitions are all individuals. I am just surprised by the publicity it is receiving. Honestly it just feels like the elections are continuing. Both sides are paying it to their post-election reaction.

 

[white avenger]

None of the states have actually petitioned for secession... just individuals. The White House has a website where any citizen can submit any petition for review. All it takes is one person to start the petition, and then anyone can sign it.

There are a few thousand secession advocates in every state, I'm sure. But most of the people signing these are just people venting steam because their side lost the election. The same thing happened on the other side back when Bush was president.

That's true, the petitions were written and signed with no official input of any kind from the states in question. Sorry if not specifically mentioning that might have misled anyone here.

But, to the best of my knowledge, this is the first time that the disgruntled few thousand have gotten up such petitions, which is probably due to the new White House policy of officially addressing any matter that gets 25,000 or more signatures. We'll probably be seeing quite a few such petitions on various matters in the future.

 

[Tueuse de Vampires]

While I do think this issue is ridiculous, and never will ever come from it, I am in favour fo the people starting these petitions.

Those are the pillar stones of a democracy: it's your right to express your opinions, and if you're dissatisfied about something, it's free to you to use legal, non-violent means of being heard and trying to change the situation.

So, even though it seems a bit crazy, I do respect the people who started these petitions for making their dissatisfaction known publily. This is what a Democracy is about, and isn't this also what your precious Bill of Rights is trying to protect?

 

[white avenger]

Just an update here. According to this website:

http://www.examiner.com/article/pet...the-union-states-with-most-signatures-updated

over 700,000 signatures have been from all 50 states. Anyone who thought that this was just a stunt perpetrated di a few disgruntled people may want to reassess their thinking.

And, for the record, no, I have not participated in this, and I have no intention of doing so. I just find the whole thing interesting.

 

[BuffyElevated]

I am just in awe of how many people are doing this. I really do think that these people aren't thinking through what would happen if they were allowed to secede from the Union... They would lose all rights to take part in federal programs, and their citizenship would probably be stripped. What would that really mean? I doubt a lot of people are thinking about it like that. I think they are just protesting the election in any way they can. Like I said before, the issue reminds me of children pouting 'cause they didn't get their way... Like a kid who gets pissed about something and threatens to run away from home.

 

[white avenger]

I am just in awe of how many people are doing this. I really do think that these people aren't thinking through what would happen if they were allowed to secede from the Union... They would lose all rights to take part in federal programs, and their citizenship would probably be stripped. What would that really mean? I doubt a lot of people are thinking about it like that. I think they are just protesting the election in any way they can. Like I said before, the issue reminds me of children pouting 'cause they didn't get their way... Like a kid who gets pissed about something and threatens to run away from home.

Interestingly, there is also what might be seen as a counter petition circulation, suggesting that anyone who has signed one of the secession petitions be stripped of their citizenship and all rights associated thereto, and deported.

This is starting to get nasty.

 

[whitewolf]

Interestingly, there is also what might be seen as a counter petition circulation, suggesting that anyone who has signed one of the secession petitions be stripped of their citizenship and all rights associated thereto, and deported.

This is starting to get nasty.

That's equally as stupid. I'm a firm supporter of the right to dissent and am firmly opposed to the government punishing free speech.

Even though I'm opposed to the secession it isn't for the reasons most people are. I am not a nationalist or a patriot who feels that you should be grateful to be in this country and think those who have the nerve to want to leave should be punished. Rather I oppose secession because I am an internationalist and don't think we need further division in the world.