Suicide (trigger warning)

[bespangeled]

Every Slayer has a a death wish - and it's obvious why with the pain and stress they undergo. Buffy had lost her mother, she was under enough stress to put her in a catatonic state, she could not endure losing her sister. Did Buffy have a death wish? Do you think jumping in the portal was suicide? That she was tired of living and she wanted it to end - and at the same time she could save her sister?


Spike commits suicide as well. He may have gibbered to himself in the basement for a few weeks, but then he had to get on the stick, get to work. He's barely had to deal with his soul and there is a storm of pain coming. How much of his choice to burn was a chance to burn away the guilt and the pain? To make amends by making sure that Buffy would survive the apocalypse de jour? To save the world?

 

[Blaze]

Every Slayer has a a death wish - and it's obvious why with the pain and stress they undergo. Buffy had lost her mother, she was under enough stress to put her in a catatonic state, she could not endure losing her sister. Did Buffy have a death wish? Do you think jumping in the portal was suicide? That she was tired of living and she wanted it to end - and at the same time she could save her sister?


Spike commits suicide as well. He may have gibbered to himself in the basement for a few weeks, but then he had to get on the stick, get to work. He's barely had to deal with his soul and there is a storm of pain coming. How much of his choice to burn was a chance to burn away the guilt and the pain? To make amends by making sure that Buffy would survive the apocalypse de jour? To save the world?

I don't know if others will feel the same on the topic, but I personally get the curiosity surrounding death. Now I don't want to die, I don't think I could ever go through with suicide, but something about death is attractive. I guess it's just the unknown, or wondering if death could really end our suffering or if it would solve our problems when life gets really tough.

Psychologically, it's also normal to think about death. The average person is said to think about suicide at least once a year, and that's in the normal range. Honestly that doesn't surprise me, death is intriguing, and I'm sure most people have thought about the subject on a few occasion.

I do not think slayers have a death wish as much as they accept the fact that death is part of their life (as it is with all of us, but even more so with slayers). If you accept that there is a 100% chance that you die doing your job, you off course will come to accept this. Death might even become something someone looks forward too because it's the only way you will be released from your duty. That does not mean that you want to die or that you have a death wish. It just means that a slayer knows that death means finally being at peace.

And yes, being a slayer would surely increase the amount of time you think about death, but what Buffy went through is not uncommon in real life with soldiers, people loosing family members, people suffering from addiction and depression. Slayers might not exist but the issues Buffy was faced with do.

But no, I don't believe for a second that what Buffy did in the Gift was suicide. What she did was purely selfless, it was all about saving the person she loved most in the world, not about ending her own suffering. At least that's what I got for it.

As for Spike, I do think dying that way was a way for him to feel like he redeemed himself. That and he was curious to see what would happen. I don't think he viewed it as a suicide, Spike was maybe the farthest from being suicidal in all the characters.

 

[bespangeled]

I don't know if others will feel the same on the topic, but I personally get the curiosity surrounding death. Now I don't want to die, I don't think I could ever go through with suicide, but something about death is attractive. I guess it's just the unknown, or wondering if death could really end our suffering or if it would solve our problems when life gets really tough.

Psychologically, it's also normal to think about death. The average person is said to think about suicide at least once a year, and that's in the normal range. Honestly that doesn't surprise me, death is intriguing, and I'm sure most people have thought about the subject on a few occasion.

I do not think slayers have a death wish as much as they accept the fact that death is part of their life (as it is with all of us, but even more so with slayers). If you accept that there is a 100% chance that you die doing your job, you off course will come to accept this. Death might even become something someone looks forward too because it's the only way you will be released from your duty. That does not mean that you want to die or that you have a death wish. It just means that a slayer knows that death means finally being at peace.

And yes, being a slayer would surely increase the amount of time you think about death, but what Buffy went through is not uncommon in real life with soldiers, people loosing family members, people suffering from addiction and depression. Slayers might not exist but the issues Buffy was faced with do.

But no, I don't believe for a second that what Buffy did in the Gift was suicide. What she did was purely selfless, it was all about saving the person she loved most in the world, not about ending her own suffering. At least that's what I got for it.

As for Spike, I do think dying that way was a way for him to feel like he redeemed himself. That and he was curious to see what would happen. I don't think he viewed it as a suicide, Spike was maybe the farthest from being suicidal in all the characters.

I completely agree with you on the thinking about death - it's intriguing. Particularly the way that particle physics is moving. We exist on so many levels but we are only aware of one which we call reality. Death is some sort of transition.

It just means that a slayer knows that death means finally being at peace.

I couldn't agree more, but I think this is half of a death wish. Knowing it will mean being at peace. Letting it all go.

And I also agree with you on suicide in a lot of ways. Love is your gift, and peace was the reward. She could lay her burden down. I think that what she meant when she told Dawn "Tell Giles I figured it out." She knew she could save the world and be at peace. Is that why they would her so tight in season 5? So much incredibly painful stuff - isn't this the season where Giles tells her she has to believe in something more, and she says she has to live in the world the way it is.

I think Spike also wanted peace but he wanted Buffy to live too. She had given him absolution of sorts, and that was critical for his mindset. And there is always Spike's statement that he would die for someone he loved, earlier in the season. And survival meant facing all sorts of things that following Buffy blindly had given him a rest from. I think he felt that the grand gesture made up for the probability of hell.

 

[thetopher]

I've never beleived that Buffy had a 'death wish' exactly. But death was part of her life, if she had nothing else to ground her, such as friends or family. Then, of course, that focus on death would've come central to her life.
But Buffy always had such self-control when it came to her calling, she resisted it, the responsibility, she fought for a normal life. She even supressed her enjoyment of the slaying, the death aspects, and kept her distance from them.

From what we have seen no other slayer had anything outside of slaying, Kendra is the prime example- she had all the best training from a young age, yet she lasted barely over a year, because, apart from her Watcher, she had no connections to the world, no friends, no family, no boyfriend, no sense that she was loved, she had nothing to fight for apart from the nebulous sense of duty that she was taught (that plus the slayer instinct, which was no doubt surpressed by her Watcher, along with a lot of her other emotions)

That, to me, is why I think Spike is so off base when he says that Buffy, like all other slayers, has a death wish. There is no slayer like Buffy, because she has a (relatively) well-rounded life, friends, family, love.


Buffy sacrifices herself for love, that's the point of the Gift. She dies for Dawn, not for herself.
Was there a part of her that wanted to rest? Maybe, but the fact is that if Dawn had been safe then Buffy wouldn't have hurled herself off the tower.
Glory would've been defeated and life would've rolled rightalong like always, just like it did (eventually) in S7, things would've gotten better.
Buffy, with friends and family, enjoying what life she could. 🙂

 

[Silverspike]

I dunno, I always thought it when it came to Buffy in season 5 it was a case of 'a little from pile A and a little from pile B'.

BUFFY:

I've always stopped them. Always won.

GILES:

Yes.

BUFFY:

I sacrificed Angel to save the world.
I loved him so much... but I knew.
What was right. I don't have that
any more. I don't understand.
I don't know how to live in this world,
if these are the choices, if everything's
just stripped away then I don't see
the point. I just wish... I wish my
mom was here.

She had gone through more in a short period of time then some do in a lifetime. I mean how could she not be depressed and a part of her long to be rid of it all.

 

[Blaze]

I dunno, I always thought it when it came to Buffy in season 5 it was a case of 'a little from pile A and a little from pile B'.



She had gone through more in a short period of time then some do in a lifetime. I mean how could she not be depressed and a part of her long to be rid of it all.

I interpreted this text much differently, again I think this texts comes back to Dawn entirely. She doesn't understand the world because unlike with Angel, if Dawn dies Buffy doesn't want to continue living. That's very different than wanting to die in my opinion, it's more about Buffy rather seeing the world end than having to kill her own sister. Which makes even more sense when you think that she already lost her only other family member. Buffy feels broken without her family, that's what you truly call unconditional love. And although she loved Angel, it was different circumstances because he was her boyfriend.

The thing with s5 is that Buffy is told she'll have to kill her sister. It's not a matter of her sister dying of natural cause, Buffy has a gun pointed to her head telling her to shoot Dawn with her own metaphorical gun.

I think this text hints that had Dawn died, Buffy might have become depressed and suicidal, but it would have been triggered by the situation. It doesn't mean that Buffy was suicidal at the time or that she would ever be. Anyway, just my 2cent 🙂

 

[white avenger]

Every Slayer has a a death wish - and it's obvious why with the pain and stress they undergo. Buffy had lost her mother, she was under enough stress to put her in a catatonic state, she could not endure losing her sister. Did Buffy have a death wish? Do you think jumping in the portal was suicide? That she was tired of living and she wanted it to end - and at the same time she could save her sister?


Spike commits suicide as well. He may have gibbered to himself in the basement for a few weeks, but then he had to get on the stick, get to work. He's barely had to deal with his soul and there is a storm of pain coming. How much of his choice to burn was a chance to burn away the guilt and the pain? To make amends by making sure that Buffy would survive the apocalypse de jour? To save the world?

I've often wondered if the so called Slayer's death wish doesn't come more from simply a desire to end the waiting than from any actual desire to be dead. I read somewhere once that one of the most important duties of death row guards in prisons is to keep the inmates from killing themselves before their execution date. Every day, they look at the calendar, knowing that, on a specific date, their life is going to end. Eventually, the suspense gets to some of them. They just want the waiting to be over. I think that many of the Slayers are like that. They all know that their lives are so short, so filled with pain, trapped in a never ending struggle with only one end in sight, and that end quite unpleasant and almost likely extremely painful. Maybe that's what happened with the Chinese girl during the Boxer rebellion, more of a combination of her fear of the kind of life that she saw before her than Spike's skill at that time. An extensively trained martial artist, which she gave every indication of being, under almost any circumstances, should have made a better showing against what was, at best, a powerful street fighter, even if the end result was the same. She should have lasted longer, been able to injure William more severely than just a cut over one eye.

As for Spike, I can't really bring myself to categorize what he did in the hellmouth as suicide, any more than I could call either of the two times that Buffy died. Sacrificing oneself for a just cause isn't the same as just giving up on the struggle that life presents. Suicide is a form of surrender. What Buffy and Spike did was putting their lives on the line, knowing that there was no chance in hell of survival, but doing it anyway, either out of a sense of duty on Buffy's part, and a sense of duty, plus the idea of giving his life in the service of his lady in Spike's part. Dying for a cause, to me, at least, could never be confused with suicide.

 

[Xin Rong]

I see Buffy's death as both a beautiful sacrifice and suicide - the two, in my view, aren't mutually exclusive.

Yes, Buffy died to save Dawn, but she wouldn't have been the one to kill Dawn, Dawn was willing to sacrifice herself to save the world, which she gets almost no kudos for. So Buffy just had to let her, but she didn't, she played the hero and saved the world, bravo 🙂

But, in doing that, in letting Dawn live over her she avoided having to go through the grieving process and avoided more pain and torment as a slayer, which was kind of selfish. By killing herself she inflicted the grief on Dawn, leaving her alone in the world, and left the job of fighting the forces of darkness to her inequipped friends and family, who would have probably died within the year if they remained in Sunnydale.

That being said, in Buffy's shoes, I would have done the exact same thing, but that doesn't mean her act was truly selfless, as, in my opinion, there was definitely some selfish motivations included within her decision process, which isn't an insult, how could there not be some selfishness involved: I just don't conform to view of Buffy as a saintly figure with impossibly high levels of selflessness - she is just a girl after all.

 

[bespangeled]

I've often wondered if the so called Slayer's death wish doesn't come more from simply a desire to end the waiting than from any actual desire to be dead. I read somewhere once that one of the most important duties of death row guards in prisons is to keep the inmates from killing themselves before their execution date. Every day, they look at the calendar, knowing that, on a specific date, their life is going to end. Eventually, the suspense gets to some of them. They just want the waiting to be over. I think that many of the Slayers are like that. They all know that their lives are so short, so filled with pain, trapped in a never ending struggle with only one end in sight, and that end quite unpleasant and almost likely extremely painful. Maybe that's what happened with the Chinese girl during the Boxer rebellion, more of a combination of her fear of the kind of life that she saw before her than Spike's skill at that time. An extensively trained martial artist, which she gave every indication of being, under almost any circumstances, should have made a better showing against what was, at best, a powerful street fighter, even if the end result was the same. She should have lasted longer, been able to injure William more severely than just a cut over one eye.

As for Spike, I can't really bring myself to categorize what he did in the hellmouth as suicide, any more than I could call either of the two times that Buffy died. Sacrificing oneself for a just cause isn't the same as just giving up on the struggle that life presents. Suicide is a form of surrender. What Buffy and Spike did was putting their lives on the line, knowing that there was no chance in hell of survival, but doing it anyway, either out of a sense of duty on Buffy's part, and a sense of duty, plus the idea of giving his life in the service of his lady in Spike's part. Dying for a cause, to me, at least, could never be confused with suicide.

But in reality we tend to see it as suicide for a cause. Getting away from hurting anyone, I'd use the Buddhist monks who poured gasoline on themselves and lit the match back in the Vietnam war. Or someone wearing a bomb, knowing that pushing the button will wipe out all the demons that are an immediate threat. Can't there be suicide for a good cause?

There's a difference between that and the person who drowns trying to save someone. I think that Buffy knew jumping would be to her death but would give others life. I think Spike knew that a mystical amulet from an untrustworthy source made for a champion to use in a battle - not going to survive but everyone else would. In fact, Spike tells Fred that he didn't do much - just let the fire come. So, in one way at least, he did give up.

---------- Post added at 03:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:18 PM ----------

I see Buffy's death as both a beautiful sacrifice and suicide - the two, in my view, aren't mutually exclusive.

Yes, Buffy died to save Dawn, but she wouldn't have been the one to kill Dawn, Dawn was willing to sacrifice herself to save the world, which she gets almost no kudos for. So Buffy just had to let her, but she didn't, she played the hero and saved the world, bravo 🙂

But, in doing that, in letting Dawn live over her she avoided having to go through the grieving process and avoided more pain and torment as a slayer, which was kind of selfish. By killing herself she inflicted the grief on Dawn, leaving her alone in the world, and left the job of fighting the forces of darkness to her inequipped friends and family, who would have probably died within the year if they remained in Sunnydale.

That being said, in Buffy's shoes, I would have done the exact same thing, but that doesn't mean her act was truly selfless, as, in my opinion, there was definitely some selfish motivations included within her decision process, which isn't an insult, how could there not be some selfishness involved: I just don't conform to view of Buffy as a saintly figure with impossibly high levels of selflessness - she is just a girl after all.

Thank you - you said it beautifully. Dying was better for everyone involved - and that included Buffy. The fact that she was aware of this doesn't make her sacrifice any less powerful.

 

[Lyri]

I've had numerous run-ins with people on this site about whether or not I think Buffy committed suicide. I've even had someone telling me I'm an idiot if I don't think she committed suicide.

To me, I don't think Buffy wanted to die. I don't think Buffy ever had a death wish. even in S6, I don't think she ever really wanted to die. I don't think it was right for the Scoobies to bring her back from the dead, but I don't think that Buffy was in any rush to try and get back to her heaven.

In my opinion, Buffy's death in 'The Gift' is no different to that of a soldier, putting himself in the path of a bomb or a bullet to save the lives of fellow soldiers or innocent people. Teh soldier knows they are going to die, but they are not committing suicide.

It's the same with Buffy here and in 'Prophecy Girl'. She knows she's going to die, but she's doing it to save her sister and the world. She doesn't want to die, but she knows she has to.

I'll never see it as suicide and the same goes for Spike.

 

[bespangeled]

I've had numerous run-ins with people on this site about whether or not I think Buffy committed suicide. I've even had someone telling me I'm an idiot if I don't think she committed suicide.

To me, I don't think Buffy wanted to die. I don't think Buffy ever had a death wish. even in S6, I don't think she ever really wanted to die. I don't think it was right for the Scoobies to bring her back from the dead, but I don't think that Buffy was in any rush to try and get back to her heaven.

In my opinion, Buffy's death in 'The Gift' is no different to that of a soldier, putting himself in the path of a bomb or a bullet to save the lives of fellow soldiers or innocent people. Teh soldier knows they are going to die, but they are not committing suicide.

It's the same with Buffy here and in 'Prophecy Girl'. She knows she's going to die, but she's doing it to save her sister and the world. She doesn't want to die, but she knows she has to.

I'll never see it as suicide and the same goes for Spike.

I was gonna just make this a rep, but I have to spread it around before I can rep you again. Any thread I start is to gather all sorts of opinions. I'm not wed to much, and I don't object to much. I will usually step in when a character gets slammed - not just Spike but any of them. Usually I'm just wildly curious to know what people think, and more important what led them to their way of thinking.

I see the same heroic sacrifice that you see - I just see more underlying it. Even a soldier on the battle field might be aware that death is preferable to the pain of losing more men. I don't think that makes the sacrifice any less heroic.

 

[Xin Rong]

I was gonna just make this a rep, but I have to spread it around before I can rep you again. Any thread I start is to gather all sorts of opinions. I'm not wed to much, and I don't object to much. I will usually step in when a character gets slammed - not just Spike but any of them. Usually I'm just wildly curious to know what people think, and more important what led them to their way of thinking.

I see the same heroic sacrifice that you see - I just see more underlying it. Even a soldier on the battle field might be aware that death is preferable to the pain of losing more men. I don't think that makes the sacrifice any less heroic.

Exactly, Buffy did make a noble sacrifice, but it's not as noble and selfless as people seem to think. The more noble action would have been to let Dawn make the sacrifice, that she was more than willing to make, and then Buffy would have shouldered the grief and sense of isolation that were inflicted upon Dawn, and would have had to continue fighting demons, instead of friends. Buffy escapes the grief, pain and neverending servitude by making her noble sacrifice - and in my view, that is one of the multifaceted reasons that Buffy jumped rather than Dawn - not just because she wanted to save her sister, who would have likely died a few months later without the slayer around, making Buffy's sacrifice kind of moot anyway.