Tabula Rasa spell, would you use it?

[Tome]

I'm talking about the spell that Willow used on Tara at the end of ''All The Way'', and later on the others. Now before you get the wrong idea, I'm not saying Willow was right to do that. Far from it! But what if your child had a traumatic experience at birth or even later on, would you use it? Would it be right, even if they didn't know about it? Like with Connor? That's pretty much what Angel did to him. He had a terrible life, and as his father, Angel wanted him to be happy.

What I'm asking is, are there circumstances where the spell could be used in a good way, or is it just a big no-no for you?

 

[white avenger]

The Tabula Rasa spell was wrong because it interfered with others, and even potentially altered their lives, by altering their memories without their permission or even input in any way, and I have never been able to understand why it was considered wrong for Willow to do it, but acceptable, even noble and self sacrificing for Angel to do exactly the same thing to the two people who he supposedly loves above all others (Buffy and Connor) and his closest friends (Wes, Fred, Gunn, and Lorne)

So, no, I would never use it, and I would do everything that I could do to prevent anyone else from using it, regardless of what their excuses might be.

 

[Taake]

So, no, I would never use it, and I would do everything that I could do to prevent anyone else from using it, regardless of what their excuses might be.

Completely agree with this.

Your experiences, no matter how horrible they might be, is what makes you who you are. And taking that away means changing who you are as a person with unknown consequence to follow. Doing it to someone else - without their knowledge - would be ten times worse, changing someone else according to your opinion - even if you have good intentions - is appalling.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

Hmm. If I ever found myself in some kind of situation where I'd think taking all memories of that event would be the best thing to do, I'd probably be tempted, but in the end, I don't think I'd do it. Our experiences are too important to be taken away from us.

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

I'd do it to myself but I don't know how I'd feel about doing it to others.

 

[VisionGirl]

The thing that differentiated the situation in Tabula Rasa from the one in Home is that the lives of Connor, Cordelia, & all the people in that store were at stake. No one was at risk of death in Tabula Rasa, Willow did that spell out of complete selfishness, because of her guilt over the Resurrection spell and her general over-dependence on magic. One can always question the motives of our main protagonists when they're dealing with difficult situations: Did Angel really need to cut off Lindsey's hand? Was there really no other option than Buffy jumping in The Gift? Did Giles really need to kill Ben? Was it really necessary to risk the lives of all of the students & blow up the school in Graduation Day? We can debate these life & death apocalyptic circumstances until the cows come home (& then beat up the cows) but those are different situations than trying to manipulate someone's memories merely to make you feel better.

I can tell you that as a parent you bet your sweet ass that I would have done exactly what Angel did to save his son. Would it be the right thing? I don't know, but I don't think I could NOT do it.

 

[Kean]

I can tell you that as a parent you bet your sweet ass that I would have done exactly what Angel did to save his son. Would it be the right thing? I don't know, but I don't think I could NOT do it.

I think this is the only situation that I would even consider it.

As for the Tabula Rasa situation, the answer is absolutely not.

 

[brinkster130]

Like [MENTION=10354]VisionGirl[/MENTION] said, the two situations were completely different. I personally don't think they can be compared.

I would never in a million years use a spell like that for my own personal gain like Willow did in Tabula Rasa. However if my child's happiness was dependent on it; I'd think I'd have a hard time not using it.

 

[FetalPig]

Are you kidding ? I could rule the world!! MWAHAHAHAHAA!!

---------- Post added at 06:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:09 PM ----------

Alright Alright. I wouldn't either ... sigh

 

[Tome]

The Tabula Rasa spell was wrong because it interfered with others, and even potentially altered their lives, by altering their memories without their permission or even input in any way, and I have never been able to understand why it was considered wrong for Willow to do it, but acceptable, even noble and self sacrificing for Angel to do exactly the same thing to the two people who he supposedly loves above all others (Buffy and Connor) and his closest friends (Wes, Fred, Gunn, and Lorne)

So, no, I would never use it, and I would do everything that I could do to prevent anyone else from using it, regardless of what their excuses might be.

So there would be NO circumstances under which the spell would be right to use? What if you talked to that person and they agreed to have it done to themselves, for the best? Like I pointed out up there, some traumatic experiences don't bring you ANYTHING but pain and/or stress afterwards, what would be wrong with removing that from your memory?

 

[Gum Gnome33]

So there would be NO circumstances under which the spell would be right to use? What if you talked to that person and they agreed to have it done to themselves, for the best? Like I pointed out up there, some traumatic experiences don't bring you ANYTHING but pain and/or stress afterwards, what would be wrong with removing that from your memory?

To play devil's advocate, I'd argue that there can be a humane way to do it. This is really awful and I don't want to encourage any gigantic debates, but....you can sort of draw an analogy to end of life procedures. Some choose to be "DNR." Some choose, well, even more extreme measures. But the point is, if someone truly wants to end their suffering, in either context, I would argue that there is a case to be made for it.

Of course in the case of Tabula Rasa, no one asked for it, so it was inappropriate. And in IWRY, Buffy didn't ask for her memory to be erased, also inappropriate. What Angel did for Connor, as others have pointed out, may have been wrong but there were lives at stake and a father did what he thought was best for his friends and particularly for his son. And I suppose you could argue that because of Willow's love for Buffy, her intention to make her best friend forget being taken away from her bliss could be considered honorable. But because we know she was also very addicted to magic at the time, I think there were ulterior motives here, like a strong desire for power.

 

[white avenger]

So there would be NO circumstances under which the spell would be right to use? What if you talked to that person and they agreed to have it done to themselves, for the best? Like I pointed out up there, some traumatic experiences don't bring you ANYTHING but pain and/or stress afterwards, what would be wrong with removing that from your memory?

That's where the "without their permission or even input in any way" part of my statement comes in. If the person whose memory is being stolen knows what is going to happen, why the action is being taken, AND AGREES WITH THE ACTION, then I would concede that, under very rare and specific circumstances, the Tabula Rasa spell or its equivalent might be considered. But those very specific circumstances would most certainly NOT include making one's girlfriend forget about a recent argument. We learn from our experiences, and we grow by facing the consequences of our actions. Just like with the hitchhiker demon, there's always a price to pay when you try and alter the natural course of events, regardless of good intentions. Watch "The Butterfly Effect" sometime, and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about.

 

[Marisa]

Well maybe I think some traumatic events especially in childhood are bad and when you repress them and later remember them it is kind of worse so if the spell could take that away I would probably use that at least on myself possibly.
Now what Angel did was a good example and I think it was right in that situation look at Connor he was so filled with hate and gone by that point if it can help a person to have a normal semi healthy experience instead of a traumatic one like Connor then I would again probably use it. It would be a tough decision but it would definitely be something to think about. I think it should only be applied to serious situations though and not stuff like oh that person is mad at me let me fix this that would be bad. Also it has to be the persons choice. I don't know if I could condone what Willow did and even Angel that is just a messy situation.

 

[VisionGirl]

That's where the "without their permission or even input in any way" part of my statement comes in. If the person whose memory is being stolen knows what is going to happen, why the action is being taken, AND AGREES WITH THE ACTION, then I would concede that, under very rare and specific circumstances, the Tabula Rasa spell or its equivalent might be considered.

But there are some things that we do IRL without a person's consent. Incarceration in prison/jail and committment to mental institutions are two examples. Also, the courts grant guardianship and authority to make legal & medical decisions to adult children of the elderly or disabled. These last examples involve an individual who is unable to make decisions for themselves and are at risk of being a danger to themselves and others. We can certainly argue Angel's case with Connor in relation to this.

Just like with the hitchhiker demon, there's always a price to pay when you try and alter the natural course of events, regardless of good intentions. Watch "The Butterfly Effect" sometime, and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about.

I agree that even in the justified situations that I Listed above there are consequences.

 

[hazzard]

like, visiongirl said, the only situation where i think i could do something like that is in a family member situation. would it be the /right/ thing to do? probably not. but wrong and right is so subjective...i think it would be the only thing i could do.

as for the tabula rasa situation--never, ever, would i do something like that. i'd consider it, of course--everyone wants to make fights go away or bad things that happened better. but bad things and fights and hard times make us who we are as people. to take those things away would be a betrayal of who you are or someone else is as a human being.

 

[The Unspoken]

The thing that differentiated the situation in Tabula Rasa from the one in Home is that the lives of Connor, Cordelia, & all the people in that store were at stake. No one was at risk of death in Tabula Rasa, Willow did that spell out of complete selfishness, because of her guilt over the Resurrection spell and her general over-dependence on magic. One can always question the motives of our main protagonists when they're dealing with difficult situations: Did Angel really need to cut off Lindsey's hand? Was there really no other option than Buffy jumping in The Gift? Did Giles really need to kill Ben? Was it really necessary to risk the lives of all of the students & blow up the school in Graduation Day? We can debate these life & death apocalyptic circumstances until the cows come home (& then beat up the cows) but those are different situations than trying to manipulate someone's memories merely to make you feel better.

I can tell you that as a parent you bet your sweet ass that I would have done exactly what Angel did to save his son. Would it be the right thing? I don't know, but I don't think I could NOT do it.

Buffy tried to kill herself in 'Once More, With Feeling', which makes the situation and justification somewhat similar to the examples you provided. Plus, Buffy's heaven experience seemed to have left her only with painful feelings rather than any actual memories, so it's not comparable to a 'normal' mind wipe. Though I agree that permission should be asked first.

 

[BuffyElevated]

Your experiences, no matter how horrible they might be, is what makes you who you are. And taking that away means changing who you are as a person with unknown consequence to follow. Doing it to someone else - without their knowledge - would be ten times worse, changing someone else according to your opinion - even if you have good intentions - is appalling.

I totally agree... Even if an experience is a bad one, it's an opportunity for us to learn from it. Altering someone's memory changes their life, and who are we to make that choice? It's wrong, plain and simple.

 

[white avenger]

But there are some things that we do IRL without a person's consent. Incarceration in prison/jail and committment to mental institutions are two examples. Also, the courts grant guardianship and authority to make legal & medical decisions to adult children of the elderly or disabled. These last examples involve an individual who is unable to make decisions for themselves and are at risk of being a danger to themselves and others. We can certainly argue Angel's case with Connor in relation to this.
I agree that even in the justified situations that I Listed above there are consequences.

But in specifically the Tabula Rasa spell situation, Tara was neither a criminal nor a mental deficient. What Willow did to her and, by accident, to the entire gang, in no way qualifies for one of the extremely rare situations where I could condone what is nothing less than rape of another person's mind for the most petty of reasons.

My opinion of Angel's actions concerning Buffy in one case, Connor and the Fang Gang in a second, the entire population of Los Angeles in a third, the entire universe as a fourth, and his latest misconceived faux pas, are well known and documented here and several other places. Some agree with me, and some don't, and more than a few almost certainly wish that I would just shut the hell up about it, and I certainly shouldn't have brought them up in this thread, since they have a tendency to drift off course so easily. Returning to the original question, no, I would most certainly not use the Tabula Rasa spell in anything but the most absolutely dire of circumstances, which quite obviously did not exist in the situation as described.


I agree that even in the justified situations that I Listed above there are consequences.[/QUOTE]

 

[NY State of Mind]

I see it both ways....if I was getting mind raped I'd be mad too but also would do the same 😛

 

[Willow My Love]

No. I wouldn't. Like Tara said, it's a violation of the mind. It's Willow fixing her to her liking. It wasn't right at all. I'd never do something like that.

While Angel did what he did for Connor's own good, I still think it was wrong. But, it stopped him from killing himself, Cordy, and others...

I guess, I'd only do it if I were asked. If someone asks for their memories to be gone, then they can't really get upset that you did it. They asked you.