That infamous Vogue cover...

palabravampiress

Bidet of Evil
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Black Thorn
For those of you who haven't seen that infamous Vogue cover, check out this. Don't read the article yet. Just give the cover a good perusal. Are you offended?

Next, refresh your memory by checking out this image.

Are you offended now? Are you offended after reading the articles?


I ask because I had an interesting conversation about this last night. When I saw that cover in the checkout line, I saw a basketball player and a supermodel... in that order. Left to right. You know how it goes. Neither of those really holds any interest for me, so my eyes passed it over and went straight for the soap opera magazine. I rolled my eyes at the Kate/Brenda/Carly comparison, gasped at the notion that yet another character might be dying soon, chalked it up to budget cuts, and checked out my meat and veggies. After checking my hotmail a little later, I saw a rather leading link asking whether or not a Vogue cover should be offensive. I clicked the link. I looked at the cover. I thought, "isn't that what all the covers look like?" I mean, don't we always show muscle-bound, aggressive-looking men and twiggy women? I didn't pick up on the Kong reference. I enjoyed those movies when I was a kid, but what I remember most is the Kong vs. the Dinosaur fight. I watched it again as a film minor and picked up on a lot more of the social messages that are buried and/or reflected there, but I still didn't connect that Kong image to that cover until someone pointed it out.

As long as I'm owning biases and influences, I think it prudent to point out that the person who pointed it out is a bisexual feminist woman from the South. She's sort of hyper aware of anything and everything that might be offensive. Also in attendance were three Cincinnatians: a photographer, an I.T. guy, and myself. The photographer said the image was about creating tension and that it's your basic beauty and the beast setup. The I.T. guy noticed the woman's strangely wavy hair and the lack of windiness on the man and asked if the woman had been Photoshoped in. I was already spoiled, having clicked the aforementioned link, so I held my tongue.

A number of topics came up. Kong came up. Racism came up. We spent the longest on body image, questioning why these two images were placed on the cover of a "hot bodies" issue. "Why are those the ideal body images?" we asked. "Why should a man be bulky and aggressive and a woman be frail and windblown?"

As the only straight woman in the room, I said, "umm... I get it. He looks that way because, well, there's something very primal in your average straight woman that totally responds to the bulky aggressive guy." Let's not kid ourselves here, people. We're Buffy fans. Angel and Spike were popular why? Oh yeah -- because they took off their shirts and killed scary monsters for us while also displaying a bit of the monster in themselves. That's right. We liked it. Didn't hurt that we got to see 'em in action in the sack with the show's dominant female, either. We like aggressive men who show off their muscles. Besides, LeBron James is a basketball player in a dribbling pose, right? Well, aren't sports about connecting with primal urges? Aren't they, at their core, about tribal warfare? Isn't that why local groups take bulky men and put them in game after game that has the same basic point: send two groups crashing into one another and see who makes it to the other side of the field first while locals get their rocks off whoopin' and hollerin' as though they actually have something at stake in the competition? There's something very primal at work here. I'm not sure how to put it into words, but my body totally gets it. The biological imperative is at work, here. It's not refined. It's not pretty. The idea is basically: Ooooh. Look at the big tough man. Mmmm. Me want. My friends didn't pick up on that, but then again, my friends are intellectual types who are eager to be offended and to deny their baser instincts and, oh yeah, not straight women. I, personally, have always been very well attuned to those base instincts of mine, and the straight woman in me says the mag is right: LeBron James' body is hot.

As for the woman... I've got no clue why she's the hot body on display. None of the men would help me out on that one last night. I mean, by the looks of her, that chick weighs about what I weigh and has about a foot on me in height. The biological imperative is not at work there. She's too skinny. She doesn't have much in the way of breasts or hips. The chances are very good that she isn't even ovulating or having periods because her body is in famine mode. Trust me; about ten pounds ago, my petite frame couldn't support that process. I have no idea how hers could now. The only conclusions to which we came were that, possibly, it's about affluence rather than fertility. When Rubenesque women were in, it was because heftier women were better fed women and therefore upper class. Now, skinnier women can afford to eat foods that are well-prepared, more organic, etc., and are therefore upper class. So maybe men aren't so much after signs of fertility as they are after signs of wealth.

I don't know. I think the people who are offended about the Kong stuff are either looking through race-tinted glasses or, like my friends, sticking their heads in the sand about the fact that James' pose was chosen first and foremost because someone believed it would sell the most "hot body" magazines, and so someone thought -- and I believe, rightly so -- that the largely straight female Vogue consumers would be attracted to the image of James as a bulky, aggressive male. Likewise, someone believed those very same consumers would want to look like the supermodel. I think that aspect of things deserves as much (or maybe more) discussion. The racist overtones might be indicative of some hidden agenda or some malicious intent by someone over at the Vogue offices, yes, but the overt message -- the one about body image -- is important, too.

What do you guys think?
 
L
Lily
I finally got to weigh in on something!
I agree with a lot of what you said. Seeing this cover, I can honestly say I didn't take offense. And I didn't immediately get the King Kong reference either- someone had to point it out to me.

My point is just because it's mirroring a King Kong pose, does not mean it's being racist or sexist or any ist. It is merely using a classic promotional movie shot to sell magazines. And I've never taken offense at the 'Macho Man-Teeny Woman' dynamic, because whether we like it or not that is the way it is. 21st Century women may be independent and may be able to hold their own but at the end of the day the men are the stronger sex. (Which ones are the superior sex however....haha) and magazines such as Vogue- where it has huge emphasis on image and looks- are obviously going to promote that image/dynamic.

Some people just want to find offense in things, because they like the debate/trouble it causes. But in the efforts to become more politically correct by the day, we're creating more racists and sexist than there were previously. People should stop nitpicking and accept that this photo is layed out in this way for the mere purpose of SELLING MAGAZINES. With all this 'Is it offensive' publicity it's had now...it's just gonna make it sell even more. It's the way the media world works. Now if it had blazaned across the cover 'Women know your place- it's in the Kitchen! Men- take what you want by force!' then yes, offensive, but it isn't doing that. It's merely an excellently directed and well-shot photo that greatly shows the key factors of that issue- image and fitness, the men/women contrast and a wonderful mirror image of the King Kong pose which is a classic in it's own right.

What offends me is the title of the articles listed on the front!
We have enough issues in our society without a magazine going 'Get flatter shape! What happens when you (gasp!) stop going to the gym! Diets! Make sizes 0-16 look good!' I mean shouldn't size 0 have an article entitled 'Eat something!' not let's make you look good. An entire issue dedicated to making us more weight conscious than we already are.

I recently read an article about what sizes are considered thin, chunky and fat. Now before I got pregnant I was a size 6 (A UK 10 I believe and a European 38.....I think....) and according to that article I was 'Chunky'. And it had several tips on how size 6s should lose weight. The media and society's obsession with this is getting ridiculous. Marilyn Monroe was a US Size 12- does that make her fat? For crying out loud!
 
Kean
Kean
Sometimes I just shouldn't type....
I think one of the other factors that is missing from alot of the arguments (although yours is quite well rounded - bravo) is that he is a player known for his aggression and passion for the game, and is in fact in a 'pose' that is naturally his stance on the court. As for the King Kong reference, we're living in a time when
people are almost trying to make things into a race-thing for one reason or another, and usually it's completely unintentional. It's almost to the point where you can't say something is black/white etc as it will have someone turning around and questioning why you pointed out a colour.

Also - this edition of Vogue is supposed to be the 'healthy body image' issue (a once yearly event!) and yet, all the attention that should be placed on realistic body shapes and happiness in your size (etc blahblah Anna Wintour loves plus-size people i'm sure) and yet it's all being focused on a supposed photo styling - it's an Annie Lebowitz (sp?) photo right? While she likes to make images that are appealing and unnusual, sometimes shocking (in a visual sense) I don't know that you would ever say she was racist based on her body of work.

ETA: i just clicked on the link, and the suggested other image from the photoshoot that would apparently be preferred is equally as 'racist' or 'racially discriminatory' if we are going to be this overly invested in the Vogue cover, as it has Giselle (the white woman) perched literally over the head of Mr James (our black man). Surely this too could be seen as a direct racial slur, as it white is on top, or best and is about black? Really, why can't we just be celebrating that Vogue is coming into the 21st century and FINALLY putting an black man on it's cover?
 
I honest to God didn't make the King Kong connection for a long time. I spent 5 minutes staring at the bloody picture waiting to be a offended. It didn't happen. Like you have already said, I think people want to find something to harp on about. They have made a perfectly harmless cover an attack on race. At this stage I sick of it. Everyone is so worried about being PC that they are actually causing more offence.

I think your point PV about your friends being educated and WANTING to find the flaws in the picture has alot to do with this whole thing. People like to massage their own ego's Hey-lsiten-to-all-this-stuff-I-know-and-you-don't crap, this is a strom in a tea cup.
 
J
Joyce Summers
Also, it is a *storm* in a teacup. Hehe. But I agree
What an absolute load of tosh.

Come back to me when you have a front cover that has whoever the black chap is raping whomever the woman is(I don't know either and don't care) while Michael Jackson is smiling suggestively at the cast of Sesame Street.

Seriously, this kind of outrageous discussion thing is part of the PC police and its attack on the regular folk and issues made of things like this push back the march of equality everytime some real left wing nut shouts.

Vogue, a fashion and beauty magazine, has an 'attractive' man who is a sports man and an 'attractive' woman who is a model on the front cover which may or may not be based on an iconic movie.
 
Political Correctness (PC) has lost all meaning and purpose. It is now officially a driving force, or mantra, for all those who demand we all become like them...creating Xanadu or Shangrila and spend all day picking flowers and hugging each other.
There was recently a huge protest, frenzy etc over a politician saying Oriental instead of using the now PC term Asian when describing an ethnic group of people (are we still allowed to say ethnic?). Well I consider myself an individual who is caught up with current affairs/politics etc and I'm sorry but I missed the memo that it is wrong to say Oriental and that the proper term is Asian. Of course the screaming frenzied PC crowd were all 20 somethings.
The over sensitivity towards others is going to be North America's downfall if we do not bring common sense back into the equation. We are slowly becoming a civilization that is afraid to speak for fear of persecution. I am approaching a half century of walking this planet and believe me when I say this we have evolved more then the PC people want to believe.
About the Vogue cover; when I saw the photo my first thought was the best NBA player in the league having his picture taken with the current hot model. As for the King Kong reference it was only natural if not automatically triggered in some peoples opinion about the picture because his nickname in the NBA is King Lebron so all the PC police's radar just screamed when they saw the pic because Lebron and Kong rhyme.
Believe me as little as 15/20 years ago this photo would not have even been considered by any magazine. Further proof that we have advanced more then the PC zealots want to admit. I watched the movie Things We Lost in the Fire over the weekend. A husband was senslessly shot and killed. The widow turned to her husbands best friend, a heroin addict, for help for her and her kids. A very good movie about how a family, the relatives and their friends looked towards an addict for help in coping with their loss of a son, father, husband. Oh did I mention the man who was shot was white married to a black woman and they had a young daughter and son? The part of an inter-racial marriage wasn't even brought up once in the movie. And quite honestly it never even crossed my mind until after the movie. Further in the reviews from when it was in the theaters it was never mentioned. Is that not progress?
It's time to start telling the PC hypersensitive crowd to cool their heels and look at the progress we have achieved so far and improving with each passing year.
 
You know, it's stuff like this that ticks me off at America sometimes. It takes someone really obsessed with racism to look at that and get offended and then try and rile up America. It makes me wonder if the person who sees it first isn't one of the most racist people around and trying to inflame it more.

Vogue may not go out of their way to put black people on their covers, but perhaps it's not intentional. Wonder how many red heads with blue eyes have made it. Could it possibly be catering to who their readers are interested in?
I find it extremely hard to believe that they had this article ready and had these pictures and said, "Well, as a rule, we at Vogue are racists and like to refer to black people as apes. Let's use the one where the picture could be compared to a King Kong poster to make our point. As an added bonus, perhaps it will offend the entire black community AND some of our viewers and we can now cater to the bigots in this country because they notoriously spend loads of money on the things are advertisers are selling."

Really, if it was so OBVIOUSLY offensive, I doubt Lebron James would have posed for the picture! I looked. I saw what PV saw. Big, burly guy...kind cute. Woman WAY overdressed compared to him standing in a bizarre way that I wondered how she could stand in those heels and her hair oddly blowing from a wind that was obviously strong and yet not strong enough to mess with the basketball that was in mid-air.
Even once I read that it WAS supposed to be offensive, I couldn't see anything.
If it had been a white man, would the person have still seen the King Kong comparison? Makes me wonder who's really the racist here!
 
I think it's pretty offensive that people see this innocent cover of a man and a woman and liken the black man to a gorilla. That, I find offensive.
 
I have to agree with you guys. This magazine cover has been defined by colour. The person who was offended by this to me seems like the racist in this story because the first thing they saw was colour, not two people. I find that incredibly sad and disheartening in this day and age.
 
T
TheHeartist
My thoughts EXACTLY
I don't like that either.

We shouldn't be 'colourblind' that is another form of ignorance.
We should appreciate all the different aspects of what makes us individual, be it colour, creed, religion, sexual preference or taste in shoes.

We shouldn't look at the picture and initially like or dislike an aspect of it because someone says it is racist BUT at the same time, itsabsolutely fine to look at it and go 'hmmm, thats a black man and thats a white woman' cool.

I think the biggest problem society has is tolerance and its need to enforce it and push it on us.
You should NOT have to tolerate colour, nor any thing else, you should appreciate the person, who they are and what makes them who they are and I guarentee that part of what makes them that person is the colour of their skin - it shouldn't be a negative that it is highlighted, it should just be.
 
L
Lou
Oddly enough, I think I agree
S
StuckinTraffic
I've been saying this exact thing for a long time, but oddly...nobody listens. More's the pity, I think a lot of people miss out on something interesting and worthwhile because they let petty stuff like skin color decide their reactions.
I think I agree with BotD...maybe.

I certainly agree that what makes people who they are is their race, religion, social class, etc. A person ends up being the totality of what they've learned in life and that comes from where they've come from.

I also agree that we can't and shouldn't force someone to feel a certain way about others race, religion, beliefs, sexuality, social class...whatever just because they are that way. That wouldn't be right.

Although, I will say that I did look at the cover and just see two people. Not a black man and a white woman. I'm not a basketball fan, but I recognized that I have seen that man before. So, I saw him as I'd see any other "celebrity" or easily recognizable person like him. It could have been him, or Donald Trump, or the guy I can't name that does lots of guest starring roles in every show on TV.

If you had asked me to describe it, I would have said basketball player guy with lady too overdressed. Had they used the 2nd picture, I would have said black guy because I doubt I could have pinpointed where I knew him from right off hand, but the basketball thing overshadowed the black in my head.
 
E
Edmund Blackadder
I'm not attacking you, I just don't agree that you should be conditioned to NOT see the colour of someones skin, its as much an aspect of who they are as their personality
I wasn't offended by the cover, I didn't think it looked King Kong-ish to me. I thought there must be something wrong with me, not getting when something is offensive. But you all seem to agree with me. I think some people try to look beyond the surface too much.
 
But you all seem to agree with me. I think some people try to look beyond the surface too much.


I absolutely agree with that BUT not just because of the way you intended it, but because of the 'positive' way of looking passed the skin colour.

Why DID you just see 2 people Dlou?
What is wrong with seeing a black man?
He is a sportsman, he has made it to the top (I'm making assumptions of his sporting prowess because I don't know who he is) he is a person that is correct and he is a black man.

No one is truly colourblind (in the skin colour sense - I don't mean medically) we see each other for the differences. If you see a guy with a big nose, you may not want to comment on it, but you've seen it, as with a woman who has big bazoombas. They are there. We try to ignore them because society tells us that we shouldn't see them, we should see everyone equally.
It is the same with Skin Colour. You saw the picture and you say you didn't see the colour, but you are wrong. You're mind, due to the social response, may tell you that and you might even believe it, but you saw his skin solour and you reacted some way.
It isn't wrong, its natural. What is wrong is to deny this person his individuality.

We shouldn't be afraid to say things like this, we should be appreciating it, we should mark all our differences and celebrate that they fashion who we are, that if it wasn't for the things in ourselves that are there we wouldn't be who we are and that is when we truly begin to love ourselves and each other.

I feel like Jerry Springer at the end of his show!!!
 
This was the first time I had seen this (I usually couldn't care less about Cosmo or Vogue or Redbook or any of that crap), and I, too, stared at it trying to figure out why I should be offended. Before reading the article, the only thing I could think of was that the man was burly and mostly healthy looking while the woman was way too skinny for her own good--and it's called the hot bodies issue. Great. Let's push the you're-not-pretty-unless-you're-a-twig thing even MORE. But I think that people look for things to be offended about because society (and, in America, the government) try to push the victim mentality because THAT way they have a reason to take care of you and hence have a reason to make even more controlling and unnecessary laws (yes, I'm a libertarian. Let's move on).
 
L
Lou
Amen, sister!
E
Edmund Blackadder
I'm iffy on the agree disagree here but you can see my standpoint in the posts I've made an the Rep I have given
palabravampiress
palabravampiress
Libertarian Karma!
Why DID you just see 2 people Dlou?
What is wrong with seeing a black man?
He is a sportsman, he has made it to the top (I'm making assumptions of his sporting prowess because I don't know who he is) he is a person that is correct and he is a black man.

No one is truly colourblind (in the skin colour sense - I don't mean medically) we see each other for the differences. If you see a guy with a big nose, you may not want to comment on it, but you've seen it, as with a woman who has big bazoombas. They are there. We try to ignore them because society tells us that we shouldn't see them, we should see everyone equally.
It is the same with Skin Colour. You saw the picture and you say you didn't see the colour, but you are wrong. You're mind, due to the social response, may tell you that and you might even believe it, but you saw his skin solour and you reacted some way.
It isn't wrong, its natural. What is wrong is to deny this person his individuality.

I'm assuming I didn't see the black because my brain "knew" him. Which was a poorly executed part of my post.
My brain recognized him, just as it would anyone else flashed in my face over and over or a friend of mine.
I'm not claiming to NOT see color, everyone does. It's just that it fades quickly once someone is "recognized" in my head. But, I think that could be said for anyone. I might see or describe "that girl with the frizzy hair" one night, but after I've seen her, talked to her, and she's recognizable to my head, the hair fades and I'd be more likely to say, "Lisa" or "That girl we met who was studying Marine Biology".

Your average Joe around me, I do see color. But, I tend to notice just about everything around me at all times.

The key is in the describing. If you asked me to describe who was at the gas station, I'd probably say, there was a tall, black guy. If the SAME guy was at a party with me and we chatted, then my describe them, I probably wouldn't say black guy, I'd tell you what I know about him. The same as anyone else. When you don't know someone, you have no choice but to describe them as they look. When you know them, you describe them as they are.
 
E
Edmund Blackadder
I posted before I saw this but my point stands - however now its nearly 1am so I need sleep:)
All i'm saying is, when Dr King awoke from his dream, I'm sure he didn't see one colour, a mild tan, but he saw the full range of humanity and its colours and the love possible by accepting and appreciating those colours as differences but also understanding that it is key to who we are.

Why should we, half a century later, ignore or convince ourselves that it isn't there, this wonderful thing that may separate on one hand while unite us with the other.

These differences are just one of many that we ALL share and the moment we realise it doesn't matter to acknowledge them is the moment we begin to see that the differences help us relate to each other and bring about the love, peace and shared goals and interests we all have.
 
L
Lou
I DO agree that people ARE who they are because of their color and we shouldn't tell people it's "wrong" to see it. I disagree that over time, the color disappears as who they are surfaces!
And if we're talking about a big nose or a big chest....maybe so. But, still, that's just a initial impression. You can't say that you have a friend for 5 years with a big nose and if I were to say, "Tell me about your friend" you'd pop right up with "Well, he has a huge nose, thanks for asking".
You'd tell me about them. Now the first time I met the guy, I might think, "Gee, his nose is big" but after I got to know him, other things would stand out.
 
And if we're talking about a big nose or a big chest....maybe so. But, still, that's just a initial impression. You can't say that you have a friend for 5 years with a big nose and if I were to say, "Tell me about your friend" you'd pop right up with "Well, he has a huge nose, thanks for asking".
You'd tell me about them. Now the first time I met the guy, I might think, "Gee, his nose is big" but after I got to know him, other things would stand out.

You so don't know me at all - it is the FIRST thing I say if I'm telling a friend about my friend Andy - doesn't mean I love him any less🙂
 
L
Lou
Ah, but is it ALL you would say? That's what the "Thanks for asking" part was meant to relay. Surely, you'd tell me something else about him too!
All i'm saying is, when Dr King awoke from his dream, I'm sure he didn't see one colour, a mild tan, but he saw the full range of humanity and its colours and the love possible by accepting and appreciating those colours as differences but also understanding that it is key to who we are.

Why should we, half a century later, ignore or convince ourselves that it isn't there, this wonderful thing that may separate on one hand while unite us with the other.

These differences are just one of many that we ALL share and the moment we realise it doesn't matter to acknowledge them is the moment we begin to see that the differences help us relate to each other and bring about the love, peace and shared goals and interests we all have.

And all I'm saying is, I think it Dr. King's dream was for us to look PAST the color long enough to see and appreciate the person under it. Oddly, enough, I think once you look past anyone's outward appearance to learn about THEM and not what they look like, their differences from you fade. They are no longer "the black guy" or "the girl with the frizzy hair" and they have names and ideas. It's not about seeing one color...it's seeing a person and not just A person but THAT person.
 
T
teentitan
And that is what Dr. King said "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."
I tend to mention any trait that makes people stand out from other people. If that means they have a big nose, or are Asian, or get around in a wheelchair, that's how I describe them. I actually have a student who's in a wheelchair. When discussing her with others (those I'm actually allowed to discuss her by name with, because we have confidentiality and all that), I call her by her name. If they say, "Who?" I say, "the chick in the wheelchair." I don't call her a cripple or anything rude, but she's the only student I have who's in a wheelchair, so that's the trait I use to separate her from others. I don't see anything wrong with that.
 
L
Lou
Not a darn thing wrong with describing someone, if you ask me
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