That night...

I understand where you're coming from. It's not something that I saw either, for a while, which is why I find it interesting enough to bring into question. And, remember, I'm not saying that they're the same thing. I'm saying that there are parallels.

And also, I'm urging people to consider that just because Buffy approved of Angel biting her, doesn't mean that a) it was okay, or that b) she couldn't have a change of heart, or--more to the point of this argument-- Angel couldn't see that she was in pain and decide that it was wrong and that he should stop.

I also want to re-iterate that the "survival" for Angel is not simply a matter of taking medicine to heal. Buffy's life can easily be the cost of that survival. So the terms are not as simple as they can seem, when the situation is downplayed and romanticized, as it often is.

I understand what your trying to say but one statement if I will......

In the hospital when Buffy recovers she defended Angel and his actions while with Spike she couldn't get it out of her head for a good while.....I don't think Buffy herself would even parallel these incidents.
 
brinkster130
brinkster130
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Gum Gnome33
Gum Gnome33
I agree! But that's one thing I have a problem with; the characters, (even those directly involved) don't see any parallels at all.
This will sound very rude but do we really need yet more excuses for Spike?

It's quite clear that the post was never meant to be a defense for Spike...to me at least. Although most people seem to be acting like it is. The point is (IMO) that both (maybe not in the exact same way) hurt Buffy deeply. The two scenes are really tragic, but Spike's scene seems to get more recognition, more disapproval. But Angel did an equally awful thing to Buffy and yet it is overlooked.

I don't care if she was reacting to the physical pain... She was obviously not enjoying what was happening to her even though she asked. If I ask you to beat me up, is it ok for you to do it? I asked for it... When I cry and say "ow" should you not listen because I'm only responding to the physical pain of what I asked you to do? That's what I keep thinking reading some of these responses...

Exactly.

It's here where I think you're wrong... I don't think Spike wanted to have sex with Buffy at all when he walked in.

Agreed. I just watched the scene. He seemed genuinely sorry.

I honestly believe people react so strongly to the bathroom scene because of the topic of "rape."

I think we have a winner. Never thought about that, but this seems to be a reasonable answer to why Angel's scene is overlooked and Spike's scene is targeted. "Rape" is a very strong word, which brings about strong emotions (especially with the majority of BB being female).
 
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Um, You can lead a vampire to a neck, but you can't make him drink. Seriously, though. Still not seeing how he was forced to suck her blood, and to continue doing so in spite of her obvious agony.

You are really getting into semantics now. Sure, an argument can be made that if you leave somebody a choice between doing some despicable and dying you aren't technically forcing him to choose the despicable thing for sure, but for me this is very much coercion still. And yes, it was Faith who created the situation but Buffy also disregarded Angel's will and not only made that choice possible but physically attempted to make him do it. And I don't see the "obvious agony" disregarded by Angel either. The shooting script is quite clear:

"...she finally does scream, a hoarse, primal call that fills the room --

He hears. He wrenches himself free, throwing himself backwards onto the floor, breathing intensely hard, blood on his lips."

The scene itself has some not so good editing, IMO, but to me it's obvious that Angel stops immediately when he gets back in control of his faculties and realizes the danger to Buffy. The "obvious agony" is only obvious to the viewers, not to him. Whether it makes sense for him to lose himself so thoroughly while, hm, bloodsucking is a different matter, but it's not as if we have much in the way of frame of reference. I have never liked that scene because for my money Buffy was being extremely foolish to risk it all on the off-chance she would survive (and that's not even mentioning that she needed her full strength for the Ascension), and dramatically it feels like a cheat as the dilemma between killing Faith and letting Angel die was resolved through the dreaded magical third option. So I am not defending Angel because I see the scene as romantic or anything like that.
 
Interesting thread topic!

I have to respectfully disagree (one of the few times that I probably will with one of your posts lol). I don't think the two scenes are comparable. Buffy wanted Angel to bite her and drink her blood. She was willing to put herself in extreme danger for him to live. And while the scene is certainly sexualized, it's still not a sexual act.

Also, I consider what happened in 'Seeing Red' attempted rape. And I do so because in that situation, I absolutely prioritize Buffy's perspective over Spike's. For me, there's no question about it. She's the victim in that situation, and even if Spike wasn't in the right frame of mind, or if he felt really remorseful about it later, or whatever else, it doesn't change what he did to Buffy.
 
NY State of Mind
NY State of Mind
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The shooting script is quite clear:"...she finally does scream, a hoarse, primal call that fills the room --

I've never read the shooting script. But if you watch the scene, she is moaning in agony and struggling beneath him, long before that point.

The "obvious agony" is only obvious to the viewers, not to him. Whether it makes sense for him to lose himself so thoroughly while, hm, bloodsucking is a different matter, but it's not as if we have much in the way of frame of reference.

This is where it gets tricky; I can understand the argument that he might not have noticed. I think two things are happening: a)he's a beast lost in the moment, and b)Buffy's moans are quite small for a while as her blood is being drained and she's lost most of her strength. So it's hard to say where one ends and the other begins.

---------- Post added at 12:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:21 AM ----------

I have to respectfully disagree (one of the few times that I probably will with one of your posts lol).

'Tis ok, I think this will be one of the few times I'll ever disagree with yours! Seriously, I agree with 99% of the things you say, which really makes this interesting and fun for me!

I don't think the two scenes are comparable. Buffy wanted Angel to bite her and drink her blood. She was willing to put herself in extreme danger for him to live. And while the scene is certainly sexualized, it's still not a sexual act.

I think one of the reasons I have such a visceral reaction to the scene is because it's sexualized. I mean, it certainly doesn't help. I see a young girl who is incredibly brave and thinks she wants something and then realizes that she was wrong. Or, realizes just how much pain it would cause her; how risky it was. And that's what makes me think about rape.

She's the victim in that situation, and even if Spike wasn't in the right frame of mind, or if he felt really remorseful about it later, or whatever else, it doesn't change what he did to Buffy.

I totally agree with all of this. I just don't like the term "attempted rape" because I think it speaks to his intent, which I don't believe is to rape Buffy. Though it might have happened, we can't accuse him of doing it, since it didn't. But I see where you're coming from!
 
I haven't read all the posts yet, but I wanted to quickly respond to the first...

gum gnome, thank you so much for this thread! I agree wholeheartedly with your take on the bathroom scene. I think you described spike's intentions and thought process (at least as it seems to me) perfectly.

the angel thing, however, I see through a different lense. I don't think he was mallicious there at all, I really am not upset with him for that... Buffy was determined to sacrifice someone so that he may live...she tried to use faith, that didn't work... that, in and of itself is a pretty big deal though, I mean, she as the slayer, as the hero, would be willing to kill another human to save angel...

when he bit her, she not only allowed but encouraged it, and I think she felt safe in a really fundamental way, and maybe this is where trust (naive as it may have been and based on a fairy tale like idea of romance) comes in...I think she trusted him not to kill her...to stop in time...

the whole act I saw as more sexual than violent and I think the kick at the end rather than indicating her trying to stop him was more of a final burst before climax thing...

but I could be seeing that wrong.

hope I explained that right...I just woke up and coffee hasn't quite kicked in yet.

Back to read all the other posts soon.

🙂
 
Um, You can lead a vampire to a neck, but you can't make him drink. Seriously, though. Still not seeing how he was forced to suck her blood, and to continue doing so in spite of her obvious agony.
Angel was already quite weakened and delirious from the poison (on the edge of death), so he probably wasn't thinking clearly to begin with. Add in some punches to make his vamp face come out, Buffy's bared neck, her urging for him to drink, and her physically pushing him on her and I don't think any hot-blooded man(pire) would be able to resist.

Oh, and Buffy kicking out while Angel is on top of her... I don't interpret that as changing her mind, or even pain or anguish. That's simply sex. Orgasm. Am I the only one that thinks this? Right, mind in the gutter then.

Gum Gnome33 agrees: I agree! But that's one thing I have a problem with; the characters, (even those directly involved) don't see any parallels at all.
Because maybe the parallels aren't there LOL! Very interesting thread, though. 🙂
 
Add in some punches to make his vamp face come out, Buffy's bared neck, her urging for him to drink, and her physically pushing him on her and I don't think any hot-blooded man(pire) would be able to resist.

I think this is one of the things that bothers me most; that Angel was so easily transformed into just "any hot-blooded man(pire)," even in the face of death. Because the price for his salvation could easily have been the death of the woman he loved. He wasn't "forced," but his inner demon came out so easily.

And that's a strong parallel to what happened with Spike. He loved Buffy, but in that desperate moment, his inner demon came out so easily.

That's simply sex. Orgasm. Am I the only one that thinks this?

I understand completely what you mean. I think a lot of fans think the same. I know I did at one point, but it disturbed me so much that I went back to thinking it as more of a final struggle to get away. I admit that there are two very clear and very different ways of interpreting this scene. But personally, I can't deny that the look on her face throughout shows pure pain and anguish, and some regret. So if I consider that she has an orgasm at the end of all of that--it makes the whole thing even worse, in my eyes. It's the fact that the scene in which she almost dies becomes so sexualized that really bothers me. I'm afraid to get into detail given the family-friendly nature of the boards, (!) but...does that make sense? Anyway, the whole issue makes the scene far more complicated than just sex or just death.

Thanks so much for all your responses, everyone. This is really very interesting! One think I want to make clear, in case I didn't in my OP, is that this thread is not about defending Spike, or trying to inspire people to dislike Angel. I also don't want to consider which act is worse. An almost kill for the sake of survival and an almost rape have their obvious differences. But I believe they have similarities as well.
It's such a grey area to consider. But I see a lot of "Angel is completely right, Spike is completely wrong," declarations, which make me scratch my head. Spike is undoubtedly wrong, but he does not rape Buffy. Maybe he would have, maybe he wouldn't have, (I choose to believe he wouldn't have, since it's so clear to him as soon as he's pushed off, how wrong he was, and he makes no attempt to continue). Angel does not kill Buffy. Maybe he knew on some level exactly how much he was taking, even while he was nothing but pure demon in those few moments, and maybe her life was never in danger. Maybe Buffy didn't have a slight change of heart once she found herself writing on the floor in pain. But there are a lot of "maybe's" here, in both cases. And a lot of parallels. For some fans, it seems--and, (I really can't help but think), they should have been obvious to those who loved Buffy as well.

I'll bet if you were to calmly explain to Angel and Spike what the other had done, they'd have seen the parallels, too. As horrified and disgusted as Angel would have been when he discovered what Spike did to Buffy, I imagine he'd be the first to admit that he was horrified and disgusted by what he did to her, himself. He certainly appears to be, in the show. Same goes for Spike. Now which act would both vampires ultimately consider worse? Probably Spike's. But that's a whole 'nother bag of blood.
 
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