The Amulet- Somone make this make sense

[hoponlilmama]

It definitely worked. Caleb's presence raised the stakes, but I definitely think it was too late in the season. The season was so disjointed, and you can tell had the writers not had other projects at the time, it could have been better. But they clearly checked out by that point. Whedon really wanted Firefly to be his next Buffy, and when that tanked... it's like Buffy's final season was an after thought.

I liked Caleb, but you're right, he was brought in too late. Heck, even having more of the Uber vamps around.
This is why I'll always say that the 'filler' episodes (Him, Storyteller, First Dates - even though Him is amusing) were a waste and took away valuable time from building the story.

 

[NotASlayer]

I liked Caleb, but you're right, he was brought in too late. Heck, even having more of the Uber vamps around.
This is why I'll always say that the 'filler' episodes (Him, Storyteller, First Dates - even though Him is amusing) were a waste and took away valuable time from building the story.

To be fair, any amount of time spent on Andrew was a waste...

😀

But they did have too many new characters taking away focus. The entire season lacked focus. Or sense.

 

[hoponlilmama]

To be fair, any amount of time spent on Andrew was a waste...

😀

But they did have too many new characters taking away focus. The entire season lacked focus. Or sense.

You won't hear me disagreeing with you! 😁

Yes indeed, s7 was crammed with way too much. I like the overall idea (the First Evil) but it wasn't executed very well. It was like the writers came up with the bare bones, and then as the season progressed threw everything at the wall and watched what would stick.

 

[NotASlayer]

Yes indeed, s7 was crammed with way too much. I like the overall idea (the First Evil) but it wasn't executed very well. It was like the writers came up with the bare bones, and then as the season progressed threw everything at the wall and watched what would stick.

Which wasn't much...

I think Angel handled the amorphous Big Bad of the Senior Partners much better than how the First Yawn was done. They were never directly seen, the powers behind the powers, and were therefore never directly confronted. Whereas the First was front and centre, showing up, making scary woo-woo noises, and then leaving again. It would have worked better if it was also never directly seen.

 

[hoponlilmama]

Which wasn't much...

I think Angel handled the amorphous Big Bad of the Senior Partners much better than how the First Yawn was done. They were never directly seen, the powers behind the powers, and were therefore never directly confronted. Whereas the First was front and centre, showing up, making scary woo-woo noises, and then leaving again. It would have worked better if it was never directly seen.

True. To combat that and the point you've made in other threads that Buffy had nothing to actually fight, Caleb coming in or having more that one Uber Vamp on the loose may have helped things a little.

(Also The First Yawn just cracked me up! 🤣)

 

[NotASlayer]

(Also The First Yawn just cracked me up! 🤣)

😀

Season seven saw the return of a monster of the week so boring I cannot even remember it from its own episode! My description of Amends would be that Angel is captured and tortured by eyeless monks; I could not tell you a single thing about the First. It says something when even things like the Mother Bezoar and the deep one knockoffs are more memorable!

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

• I always assumed the amulet came from W&H so that:

(a) they could have their apocalypse on their schedule, and not have some other evil git take over the world instead.​

(b) they planned to entrap Angel within the amulet once he died so they could have him under their control afterwards.​

​

Once Angel didn't use it, I suspect that W&H was done with it. They weren't interested in capturing Spike. They probably didn't think it was worth the trouble and likely suspected that Spike would cause friction with their target, Angel.

• I believe Lindsay found out about the amulet (or maybe he already knew it existed from his time at W&H since it is a very powerful artifact). He was delighted to create chaos.

Lindsay therefore extracted it and sent it to W&H knowing that whomever was within would be stuck there and that Spike and Angel pretty much hated each other. Perfect since he wanted to set the cat amongst the pigeons and revenge himself against both the Senior Partners AND Angel. Who better to accomplish that than the wild card vampire who fought for his soul & who wasn't supposed to happen? Extra points for the fact that Angel and Spike were in an adversarial relationship from the start of Spike's life. I don't think Lindsay really expected them to be allies even while really not liking each other. He doesn't really understand good guys. But Lindsay is nothing if not a trickster. If he can mess things up for the partners and for Angel, he's a happy guy.

• The following is just my head canon, but....

I suspect the artifact itself isn't evil, just powerful and dangerous and reserved for an absolute "Hail Mary" situation to close an opening Hellmouth. I suspect it could never have been used by anyone unwilling to be a sacrifice - someone powerful and a champion (which is why the Senior Partners were certain Angel would use it). Maybe the trapping of the person making the sacrifice was a curse or perhaps it was a way for the forces of good to 'save' the essence of a champion who willingly sacrificed him/herself to save the world... Of course, once W&H got it in their custody, anyone who got 'saved' inside, was at their mercy. Power is always dangerous. Nothing is more dangerous than a powerful weapon in the wrong hands.

 

[hoponlilmama]

😀

Season seven saw the return of a monster of the week so boring I cannot even remember it from its own episode! My description of Amends would be that Angel is captured and tortured by eyeless monks; I could not tell you a single thing about the First. It says something when even things like the Mother Bezoar and the deep one knockoffs are more memorable!

But we all remember how many times we had to sit and listen to Buffy make a speech...

Jokes aside, I like the idea of the First Evil, just poorly executed.

 

[Cohen]

But we all remember how many times we had to sit and listen to Buffy make a speech...

Jokes aside, I like the idea of the First Evil, just poorly executed.

Should have been like the First Vampire. To bring the series full circle.

• I always assumed the amulet came from W&H so that:

(a) they could have their apocalypse on their schedule, and not have some other evil git take over the world instead.​

(b) they planned to entrap Angel within the amulet once he died so they could have him under their control afterwards.​

​

Once Angel didn't use it, I suspect that W&H was done with it. They weren't interested in capturing Spike. They probably didn't think it was worth the trouble and likely suspected that Spike would cause friction with their target, Angel.

• I believe Lindsay found out about the amulet (or maybe he already knew it existed from his time at W&H since it is a very powerful artifact). He was delighted to create chaos.

Lindsay therefore extracted it and sent it to W&H knowing that whomever was within would be stuck there and that Spike and Angel pretty much hated each other. Perfect since he wanted to set the cat amongst the pigeons and revenge himself against both the Senior Partners AND Angel. Who better to accomplish that than the wild card vampire who fought for his soul & who wasn't supposed to happen? Extra points for the fact that Angel and Spike were in an adversarial relationship from the start of Spike's life. I don't think Lindsay really expected them to be allies even while really not liking each other. He doesn't really understand good guys. But Lindsay is nothing if not a trickster. If he can mess things up for the partners and for Angel, he's a happy guy.

• The following is just my head canon, but....

I suspect the artifact itself isn't evil, just powerful and dangerous and reserved for an absolute "Hail Mary" situation to close an opening Hellmouth. I suspect it could never have been used by anyone unwilling to be a sacrifice - someone powerful and a champion (which is why the Senior Partners were certain Angel would use it). Maybe the trapping of the person making the sacrifice was a curse or perhaps it was a way for the forces of good to 'save' the essence of a champion who willingly sacrificed him/herself to save the world... Of course, once W&H got it in their custody, anyone who got 'saved' inside, was at their mercy. Power is always dangerous. Nothing is more dangerous than a powerful weapon in the wrong hands.

This is why I love you. This is so eloquently explained. I like your head canon that the SP were trying to "trap" Angel at W&H. I'm curious as to how Lindsay knew Angel wasn't trapped in the amulet though. I don't like that it was explained that Lindsay was the one who dug up and sent it back to W&H. It would have been better if W&H had already planned to have a team locate the item and send it back to W&H. Like some extraction team. As others stated, it made 0 sense to have Lindsay send that.

However, I do like that Lindsay ends up manipulating Spike, and he calls himself "Doyle" as a full-circle moment for the show. I wonder if Lindsay was lying and playing headgames with Angel more than Lindsay actually sent the amulet to him.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

It only kinda works if Lilah and Lindsey were co-conspirators, which I suspect was the original idea. I say, kind of, because the idea that Lindsey was was able to procure a mystic amulet that could

1. Only be used by a champion.
2. Kill the Uber vamps and seal the gates.
3. Kill the wearer, bind wearer's soul to gem, allow wearer to exist in a non-corporeal state.

As well as get in touch with Lilah, who, is undead now and is likely to be kept on a very short leash, all while being brainwashed for a month.

My preferred answer is this. The Furies allowed the First to act because of the Slayer's resurrection, then allowed Jasmine because of the First, also part of her plan. As long as Jasmine was active, the Powers couldn't act, nor could the senior partners, who are probably bound to serve the First. After her fall, the Senior Partners became convinced this wasn't the apocalypse, and quickly negotiated an end to the Troclon crisis, before the Old Ones took notice. Also, the Partners and the Powers are rational actors, First and Jasmine are not.

A human sacrifice, the two Slayers caused this, let either the Last Slayer or the Vampire with a Soul end this. The amulet was the physical representation of the deal in question, when a champion wore it inside the Hell mouth, it would close the gateway and kill the Ubervamps. While they hoped it would be Angel, it could be any of the four. Free will

Lindsay latter figured it out, intercepted the team sent to retrieve the amulet, and used it for own ends.

 

[Kendar]

It's just crazy to think that Joss with all his years in Hollywood by this point could not do basic plotting. Its so bad that's one of the reason people try to make excuses for him (oh it's Marti)
It would happen again in the Avengers though that puts lies to that where the Hulk goes from being an out of control monster to being controlled by Bruce by the next scene because well reasons

It's something that was covered originally in the 60s, but unfortunately not clarified in the MCU. When Banner willingly becomes the Hulk, he has more (nowhere near total) control. If he changes despite fighting it, he has almost no control (basically able to keep from killing).

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Well of course, the First isn't a bad idea. Do you have any idea how bad of a writer you have to be to mess up The Devil? Okay Little Nicky.

 

[ILLYRIAN]

So, this question again, and yet my opinion hasn't changed. I am still of the belief that the Amulet caused the evil vampires to die so it had to be good, probably started by the PTB.
There is a reason why the good started it, it allowed the good of the vampires to live. If the evil WR&H had made it Angel, Spike and co would've died.

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

So, this question again, and yet my opinion hasn't changed. I am still of the belief that the Amulet caused the evil vampires to die so it had to be good, probably started by the PTB.
There is a reason why the good started it, it allowed the good of the vampires to live. If the evil WR&H had made it Angel, Spike and co would've died.

Because the magic does not descriminate between humanand demon but PURELY good vs evil.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Who says they lived? In my hypothesis, Spike's very existence was unbalancing the furies, and the factions were content to leave his soul buried in the mouth of hell. Or, at best, moved to warehouse 13. I don't think his being freed and gaining corporeal form was on anyone's task list.

 

[Btvs fan]

Because the magic does not descriminate between humanand demon but PURELY good vs evil.

The problem with that is it literally collapsed the whole town (ignoring it was originally on the coast) so if you were surviving in your home, good or bad tough luck you're dead

 

[NotASlayer]

The evidence would seem to be more that this is the type of magic that doesn't discriminate between good and evil at all. It just does; it is not so much morally neutral as amoral. It would not care who used it, or judge them in any way in such a case. If they had the power to fuel the amulet, it would work. It would work for good, it would work for evil and it would work for neither. It may have been assumed by the Senior Partners that Angel would wear it because he had the power and the morality to do so; they may not have expected another vampire to choose to wear it for reasons that were much more selfish.

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

The problem with that is it literally collapsed the whole town (ignoring it was originally on the coast) so if you were surviving in your home, good or bad tough luck you're dead

The magic did not kill people. The collapse did. It's likely inertia killed some people. Most people upped and left... there's no official death toll after Sunnydale fell that I'm aware of, but we see mass evacuation, and at the end, there's almost no one left -- I think it's likely THAT is magic. Either that or human self preservation finally woke people enough for them to think they were safer elsewhere.

When the magic is released, it spares innocents. Gravity always has consequences. When things implode, collapse occurs. Magic has consequences. Not all are predictable.

 

[burrunjor]

No one in the writer's office could have thought about this? This is actually genius and brings together all the plot holes, tightening up the story. I also like that you say only the potentials who have agreed because while the episode is about sharing the power, it negates the part that reflects what the shadow men did to ONE girl when the spell, as written, activated ALL the potential girls who may not have agreed. Also, it would keep the line intact by establishing Faith as the carrier of the slayer line.

Completely agree. This would have been so much better.

As to the OP's question whilst the series 7 finale was unimaginably lazy, to be fair the Lindsey plothole might not be quite as big as you think.

I always took it as.

Wolfram and Hart had their own plans, and don't want an army of Uber Vampires overrunning the earth, so they dug out their most powerful weapon, one they stole from an ancient battle and gave it to Angel, hoping he would use it, save them and then they could dig out the amulet and have control over Angel. They would have the resources to bring him back, but could have maybe done so in a way that would bind them to him or maybe even remove his soul. Spike however was the wildcard who stopped them from using Angel, but Wolfram and Hart thought well Uber Vampire army gone, and Angel is at least in charge of the LA branch so let's move on. Lindsey meanwhile who was waiting in the wings looking for ways he could mess with Angel and Wolfram and Hart and who could move in their office with the tattoos learned about the amulet and saw an opening by bringing back the other ensouled vampire to as he said make Wolfram and Hart turn against Angel and also crush Angel's self esteem.

It largely fits together, but where the s7 finale sucks is the Uber vamps being weak the stupidity of Buffy's plan that would have never worked and the lazy resolution that Wolfram and Hart come up with the a super weapon.

Post automatically merged: Apr 30, 2025

The magic did not kill people. The collapse did. It's likely inertia killed some people. Most people upped and left... there's no official death toll after Sunnydale fell that I'm aware of, but we see mass evacuation, and at the end, there's almost no one left -- I think it's likely THAT is magic. Either that or human self preservation finally woke people enough for them to think they were safer elsewhere.

When the magic is released, it spares innocents. Gravity always has consequences. When things implode, collapse occurs. Magic has consequences. Not all are predictable.

Funny I had a dream the other day about being trapped in Sunnydale knowing the final battle was happening and desperately trying to get out before the final battle happened.

 

[Kendar]

The magic did not kill people. The collapse did. It's likely inertia killed some people. Most people upped and left... there's no official death toll after Sunnydale fell that I'm aware of, but we see mass evacuation, and at the end, there's almost no one left -- I think it's likely THAT is magic. Either that or human self preservation finally woke people enough for them to think they were safer elsewhere.

When the magic is released, it spares innocents. Gravity always has consequences. When things implode, collapse occurs. Magic has consequences. Not all are predictable.

Yeah, it's always important to note that after a truly major incident there are often secondary deaths as a result of circumstances caused by the incident. Examples:

In Stephen King's "The Stand" 99.4% of people die from Captain Trips (a 100% fatal disease), with the only survivors those who are immune (never get it in first place). So out of 1000 people 6 survive. King said that probably 2 out of those 6 died from something else and had some examples in the novel (girl falls down a well, junkie shoots straight uncut heroin, person overloads a generator and burns down the house, prisoners starve to death in their cells).

In the MCU Thanos' snap killed 50% of the universe. Estimates place secondary deaths at about another 10% (and those probably weren't brought back at the end).