The Angel/Willow Double Standard

[Buffy Summers]

Inspired by recent discussions on there being a Spike/Angel double standard, I wanted to get everyone's thoughts on this one.

A lot of fans (and characters on the show) criticize Buffy for her unwillingness to kill Angelus, but no one criticizes her for not taking out Evil Willow (or Vamp Willow for that matter). Why do you think that is?

🙂

 

[itssmiletime]

Because I don't think Buffy actually could. Buffy doesn't even hold a candle when it comes to power to Willow. I am very critical of Buffy in the Dark Willow arc- she is incredibly deluded and ignorant to think that she can just 'talk to her'. She was too powerful- I can't recall a single moment when Buffy had to upper hand against Willow for a considerable period of time.

Angelus was not. Buffy had him in Innocence, and yet she lets him walk away. Also in Passion, Go Fish, I Only Have Eyes For You.


I do think they should have dusted Vamp Willow, however.

 

[iShower4free]

Whether she physically could have or not is irrelevant, she never even tried. She cared about Willow too much and you see the same thing with Buffy all through the show so its not surprising. She cant kill Angelus because she loves Angel, although she eventually realized she had to to save peoples lives, she couldn't kill Willow, she couldn't sacrifice Dawn to save the world but luckily sacrificing herself did the trick, and she wouldn't have Spike killed when the first was forcing him to kill again.

 

[EVIL UU]

There's a handful of reasons:

1. Willow is a human being. It's just not slayer's jurisdiction, at least according to what Buffy says. If Willow wants to kill another human it's not something Buffy should intervene in as the slayer, she wasn't created to protect humans from other humans after all, she wasn't created to kill humans, she was created to die to protect them. Buffy can and should intervene as a friend but when she intervenes as the slayer she righteously gets her ass kicked.

2. Buffy's not capable of taking out Willow, Willow's too powerful but more importantly, Buffy just isn't capable of killing her like she wasn't capable of killing Dawn. It's just not an option. You know, I think that people don't realize just how much Buffy loves Willow and Xander.

3. Angelus and Spike are walking cadavers, monstrosities, vampires - you don't kill them, you slay them, banish the demon that reanimates a dead human body. It's not the same as taking a life of a human being, like Willow. There is no double standard. Spike and Angel are not analogical to Willow - Dawn and Ben are.
[MENTION=2739]Buffy Summers[/MENTION]

or Vamp Willow for that matter

Because Willow told her not to. Alright, I'll try to keep it brief. The relationship between Buffy and Willow is based on two things: love and power. Buffy basically created Willow, took her under her wings, nurtured her with her love and attention but there were strings attached - Buffy was the boss of Willow. As the show progresses this dynamic is slowly turned around and in season 6 ( Which should really be named Willow The Series or something by the way ) it is Willow who is the boss of Buffy. Buffy's life and death becomes a matter of Willow's decision ( twice! ) regardless of what Buffy wants and when somebody has that kind of power over you they pretty much own you, in a boss-like fashion. Now, Buffy during the majorly pissed off Willow arc still thinks that she is the boss of Willow and Willow proves her so, so, so very wrong. It's such wonderful humiliation, it's better than anything Spike ever did. OK, but when did the shift happen? When did Buffy started losing her power? When did it change? In "Doppelgängland" obviously.

characters on the show criticize Buffy for her unwillingness to kill Angelus, but no one criticizes her for not taking out Evil Willow

Which character should do that? Xander? Dawn? They love Willow. Anya and Spike? They're not exactly in the position to bitch about it. Giles? Nobody cares about his opinion.

 

[white avenger]

Both Angelus and Vamp Willow appeared when Buffy was relatively inexperienced, less hardened to the realities of what she was supposed to be doing. That could possibly explain her unwillingness to kill Angelus early on, as in the mall after blowing up whatever that demon was, and the initial shock of seeing what she believed was "her" Willow as a vampire, might be seen as her excuse at that point. By the time that the truth was known, I think that a lot of her reluctance had to do with the fact that Vamp Willow basically just wanted to go home, and posed no actual threat to Buffy's universe. As for Dark Willow< she should have known better, she definitely should have known better by that time.

Then again, in that last case, Buffy didn't ever actually get the chance to kill Dark Willow, who had undoubtedly used her magic to become a more powerful fighter than Buffy (Maybe she was somehow channeling Glory as her fighting model) She was holding her own, but not much more. Also, that last fight was a stalling action, allowing the others to escape, so maybe she actually was just prolonging things to give them more time.

 

[Evil Angelus 95]

I do believe that Buffy never could have taken Dark Willow out by herself, but that doesn't mean she shouldn't have tried to reach out to her friend that was still in there, even if the Magicks were practically in control of her.

With Angelus, the reason she couldn't kill him was because she was still too attatched to Angel, and she wanted to stake him only as a viable last resort.

 

[slayer6]

There's a handful of reasons:

1. Willow is a human being. It's just not slayer's jurisdiction, at least according to what Buffy says. If Willow wants to kill another human it's not something Buffy should intervene in as the slayer, she wasn't created to protect humans from other humans after all, she wasn't created to kill humans, she was created to die to protect them. Buffy can and should intervene as a friend but when she intervenes as the slayer she righteously gets her ass kicked.

2. Buffy's not capable of taking out Willow, Willow's too powerful but more importantly, Buffy just isn't capable of killing her like she wasn't capable of killing Dawn. It's just not an option. You know, I think that people don't realize just how much Buffy loves Willow and Xander.

3. Angelus and Spike are walking cadavers, monstrosities, vampires - you don't kill them, you slay them, banish the demon that reanimates a dead human body. It's not the same as taking a life of a human being, like Willow. There is no double standard. Spike and Angel are not analogical to Willow - Dawn and Ben are.
[MENTION=2739]Buffy Summers[/MENTION]


Because Willow told her not to. Alright, I'll try to keep it brief. The relationship between Buffy and Willow is based on two things: love and power. Buffy basically created Willow, took her under her wings, nurtured her with her love and attention but there were strings attached - Buffy was the boss of Willow. As the show progresses this dynamic is slowly turned around and in season 6 ( Which should really be named Willow The Series or something by the way ) it is Willow who is the boss of Buffy. Buffy's life and death becomes a matter of Willow's decision ( twice! ) regardless of what Buffy wants and when somebody has that kind of power over you they pretty much own you, in a boss-like fashion. Now, Buffy during the majorly pissed off Willow arc still thinks that she is the boss of Willow and Willow proves her so, so, so very wrong. It's such wonderful humiliation, it's better than anything Spike ever did. OK, but when did the shift happen? When did Buffy started losing her power? When did it change? In "Doppelgängland" obviously.



Which character should do that? Xander? Dawn? They love Willow. Anya and Spike? They're not exactly in the position to bitch about it. Giles? Nobody cares about his opinion.

I agree that willow was too powerful to be taken out but I don't see her ever being anyon'e boss. I never saw anything that made me feel that Buffy followed orders from Willow.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=12495]slayer6[/MENTION]

I never saw anything that made me feel that Buffy followed orders from Willow.

It's about social hierarchy. Willow used to be Buffy's minion, like Harmony to Cordelia. In season 5 and 6 she proves that when she wants to she can be the top dog. She defeated Buffy and got away with it, what else needs to be said? She's stronger and she knows it. Yeah, she doesn't order people around when she doesn't have to, not her style but look at "Chosen", Willow's actually more important in the final battle than Buffy. Buffy screws up, dies from that stab wound? Nothing happens. Willow screws up? Well, that's the end of the world basically. It used to be exactly opposite. Like in the previous season, Willow defeats the antagonist, Buffy is irrelevant.

 

[slayer6]

Doesn't mean she is the boss. For example in hockey the captain is not always the best player. Same basic concept here.

 

[iShower4free]

Technically its Spike and the medallion who won that last battle, not Willow. I mean the potentials, even after being activated by Willow, could still die. Without the medallion to kill all of the ubervamps though odds are they would have over powered all the slayers and escaped. You could even give credit to WR&H/Angel for the Medallion that won that battle.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=12155]iShower4free[/MENTION]
Technically. The battle takes place during the day. The activated slayers can retreat out of the school and the vampires can't follow them. Two scenarios.

1. The Amulet doesn't work. What happens? The slayers move out of the school into the sunlight, regroup, the fight continues and considering their efficiency against the so called Ubervamps ( more like Untervamps am I right? ) ...yeah, there could be some casualties, I guess, reinforcements might be needed but the world's not ending any time soon.

2. Willow's spell doesn't work. Oh boy. Game over, everybody dies and the characters are actually aware of that:

SPIKE: Not to be a buzzkill, love, but my fabulous accessory isn't exactly tingling with power.
BUFFY: I'm not worried.
SPIKE: I'm getting zero juice here and I look like Elizabeth Taylor.
FAITH: Cheer up, Liz. If Willow's big spell doesn't work, it won't matter what you wear(...)
BUFFY: I'm not worried. As long as Willow can work her spell before they...

Faith's right. Willow's spell doesn't work, the vampires overwhelm them, Spike is shredded before the amulet kicks in. Game over. OK, technically it is the amulet that destroys the vampires and levels Sunnydale but without Willow's spell this thing wouldn't even fire.

 

[iShower4free]

Why couldn't the übervamps just wait till night fall? I'm guessing if the scoobies had the reinforcements to use they would have in the first place. Come night fall the vamps would have swarmed Sunnydale killing everyone, including the slayers. Consider the tiny percentage of the vamps that actually made it to the slayers and there were still slayer casualties. If the slayers were faced with the full force of the vamps without the medallion they would have all been killed.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

I'd say the biggest double standard is Buffy's willingness to "slay" Anya, where she was clearly more "redeemable" at the time than Angelus was in BS2...

 

[iShower4free]

I'd say the biggest double standard is Buffy's willingness to "slay" Anya, where she was clearly more "redeemable" at the time than Angelus was in BS2...

How do you figure? Angelus hadn't killed anyone when Buffy actually had the chance to kill him, Anya killed a group of frat boys. She completely deserved to be killed because of it. She was only lucky that it could be fixed. And Anya was a demon which puts her right in Buffy's slaying wheel house. Let's also not forget that Buffy did send Angel to a hell dimension, to her knowledge killing him, for the greater good. Actually the double standard in this situation comes from Xander defending Anya when he would have been the first person in line to stack Angel or Angelus in the heart for things they have done.

And when I talk about the two killing I am referring to recent killings like since Anya became a vengeance demon again and since Angel lost his soul again. Both of them killed plenty of people in their past.

 

[Kean]

Because no one seems to hold Willow responsible for her actions in S6. She killed a guy, torture Giles to within an inch of his life and tried to end the world and exactly none of the Scoobies seem to care about that. This is despite the fact that other characters have been held accountable for similar crimes and the fact that Willow was Willow at the time, not possessed, turned or soulless.

It's the Scooby double standard that Willow, Xander, Giles (and sometimes Buffy) get to enjoy but other characters do not.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

How do you figure? Angelus hadn't killed anyone when Buffy actually had the chance to kill him, Anya killed a group of frat boys. She completely deserved to be killed because of it. She was only lucky that it could be fixed. And Anya was a demon which puts her right in Buffy's slaying wheel house. Let's also not forget that Buffy did send Angel to a hell dimension, to her knowledge killing him, for the greater good. Actually the double standard in this situation comes from Xander defending Anya when he would have been the first person in line to stack Angel or Angelus in the heart for things they have done.

And when I talk about the two killing I am referring to recent killings like since Anya became a vengeance demon again and since Angel lost his soul again. Both of them killed plenty of people in their past.

The timetables are the double standard.

Buffy gave Angelus, a soulless monster, months to clean up his act.

Buffy attempted to murder Anya immediately.

Say a Catholic murderer in Spain confesses, gets put on probation, murders again, confesses again, and after six months the Spanish authorities eventually execute him.

Then a Muslim murderer in Spain confesses, and they execute him as soon as the words leave his lips. Would you not call that a double standard?

There's also the fact that vampiric murders are just that, where we've seen Vengeance demon magic undone on the show almost every time it appears.

 

[iShower4free]

I understand what you are saying though but I just dont see it as a double standard, just Buffy growing. Think about it, with Angelus she was 17, dealing with her first love who she recently slept with. She also felt responsible for Angel losing his soul in the first place. With Anya years had passed and Buffy had been through so much, become more mature, and come to terms with doing what was necessary.

Plus Buffy had changed a lot between Angelus and Anya's transgressions. She hadn't quite gotten to the point where she could kill someone for the greater good. I think it was the Angelus arc that taught her that lesson. She knew that if she had killed Angelus when she first got the chance that people like Jenny would never have been killed.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=12155]iShower4free[/MENTION]
...or the slayers could retreat to the basement and battle vampires Thermopylae style. With such a narrow choke point numbers don't really matter, make a hole in the roof and a group of slayers could defend that place almost indefinitely. I think that Buffy's plan is reckless and that Willow's spell is a violation but if you don't trust Angel nor The Initiative there just aren't many options left.

[MENTION=7585]Kean[/MENTION]
And they should do what exactly? All of them have blood on their hands. So they forgive, they move on. You know, Buffy pisses me off a lot in season 7 but I really like how she handles Willow's come back. Second scene since season six, she let's her suck her magick, just like that. Can you give any less shit? It's pretty damn incredible.

 

[Kean]

[MENTION=7585]Kean[/MENTION]
And they should do what exactly? All of them have blood on their hands. So they forgive, they move on. You know, Buffy pisses me off a lot in season 7 but I really like how she handles Willow's come back. Second scene since season six, she let's her suck her magick, just like that. Can you give any less shit? It's pretty damn incredible.

They all do have blood on their hands. That's the whole point. Buffy tried to kill Faith, Giles killed Ben, Willow killed Warren and Xander brought forth Sweets which resulted in at least one person dying. Each and every one of them has done horrific things. Things that they have called for the heads of other people for but they just conveniently ignore for each other.

Anya and Faith are the most obvious examples here. The Scoobies pick and choose who they think is worth saving and who deserves consequences.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

I understand what you are saying though but I just dont see it as a double standard, just Buffy growing. Think about it, with Angelus she was 17, dealing with her first love who she recently slept with. She also felt responsible for Angel losing his soul in the first place. With Anya years had passed and Buffy had been through so much, become more mature, and come to terms with doing what was necessary.

Plus Buffy had changed a lot between Angelus and Anya's transgressions. She hadn't quite gotten to the point where she could kill someone for the greater good. I think it was the Angelus arc that taught her that lesson. She knew that if she had killed Angelus when she first got the chance that people like Jenny would never have been killed.

How about Spike then? He was actively killing, due to subconscious trigger.

---------- Post added at 06:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:48 PM ----------

They all do have blood on their hands. That's the whole point. Buffy tried to kill Faith, Giles killed Ben, Willow killed Warren and Xander brought forth Sweets which resulted in at least one person dying. Each and every one of them has done horrific things. Things that they have called for the heads of other people for but they just conveniently ignore for each other.

Anya and Faith are the most obvious examples here. The Scoobies pick and choose who they think is worth saving and who deserves consequences.

I agree with your overall point, strongly I might add; but I disagree with the Giles example.

You could argue Giles, because of Eyghon, was a bad guy. Giles killing Ben was the only sane thing to do. Even if Giles was wrong about Glory being a later threat, which he wasn't, Glory needed to steal human minds to live. He saved roughly one life per week for the rest of time.