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spacemankgh
Guest
Well everyone knows Warren is a sociopath (sp).
So i'm not really accusing him, i'm more like stating a fact. 😛
So i'm not really accusing him, i'm more like stating a fact. 😛
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The Big Bad for season 6
- Thread starter Spike Lover
- Start date
Spike Lover
Buffy fanatic ! ! !
Lol, fair enough 😉 But would you go far enough to say that he was THE big bad? And if yes, or no, please state reasons and an explanation (or two! Lol)!
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spacemankgh
Guest
Well Warren's not like a big evily mastery guy or anything. But if I had to name someone, it would be him. He caused a lot of trouble and was generally the bad guy of the season, even though Willow had her fair share of probems even before she went evil, she was still good inside. I'd say the Trio were the top big bad (specifically Warren), followed by Willow.
Attie
Willow & Tara Admirer
Spike Lover
Buffy fanatic ! ! !
Originally posted by Attie
Warren started it all off... but it was willo who was big bad - in my opinion!
Yes - but if you think willow was the only slightly worse than the troika (or warren), then you could say warren was 'the big bad' simply with the fatcs that he was evil PLUS he made willow turn so evil - he, really, was responsible for big bad evil willow!? Now theres something to think about (it makes my head hurt! 😉)!
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I think the reason a lot of people weren't crazy about Season 6 (and a number of them really loved it) was that the "Big Bad" concept was so shifting and nebulous -- rather like real life.
I voted "All of these." In some episodes there were so many shades of gray it was hard to pick out any villains at all, and in some there were multiple wrong-doers (e.g. Warren and Willow) wreaking havoc all over the place.
I voted "All of these." In some episodes there were so many shades of gray it was hard to pick out any villains at all, and in some there were multiple wrong-doers (e.g. Warren and Willow) wreaking havoc all over the place.
Spike Lover
Buffy fanatic ! ! !
Originally posted by Tyra
I think the reason a lot of people weren't crazy about Season 6 (and a number of them really loved it) was that the "Big Bad" concept was so shifting and nebulous -- rather like real life.
I voted "All of these." In some episodes there were so many shades of gray it was hard to pick out any villains at all, and in some there were multiple wrong-doers (e.g. Warren and Willow) wreaking havoc all over the place.
I think you make sooo much sense - very valid points. I particularly agree with that there were so many shades of grey in some episodes that it was hard to pick out any villains at all and that there were multiple wrong-doers or people who you didnt know whether to think they were good or evil. I totally agree and think you have made the best points here so far.
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The 'Big Bad' was certainly nebulous and uncertain. I think we can all agree with that. Moreover, I find the cloudiness quite appropriate. S6 was not about gods or monsters--it was about inactions and the subsequent consequences of those inactions. I've seen innumerable complaints about S6, but I, however, welcomed the dark tone the series took. It was absolutely necessary to pull the characters apart. For five years Buffy, Willow, and Xander stood, more or less, side by side; they fought together, cried together, and most importantly, stayed together. A departure from their unity is exactly what needed to happen. Suddenly every character is alone and fending for themselves--Giles, the quintessential voice of reason, leaves; Dawn is often ignored; Tara deserts Willow (and I can also argure that Willow deserts herself); Xander and Anya break away from each other long before their wedding day; Buffy becomes a supreme isolationist; and Spike, well, has been alone for quite sometime, only in S6 he grapples with his newfound epiphany. Life is somehow more disrupted, more dangerous than it has ever been before--and this is without the menace of a super-powerful 'Big Bad'. I feel that this depravity was absolutely necessary to the narrative for it strangely gives the show back its life force.
I understand the many views fans have of S6 and, after all, we are all entitled to our opinions. However, I do not know how the series could have worked appropriately if there wasn't this separation between the Scoobies. As far back (and possibly further) as 'Restless' we are introduced to the fears that our core characters inherently possess. Interestingly enough, 'Restless' was a season finale, which is why I believe it holds great significance in the whole of the series. S6 seems to be reminiscent of all these deep and lurking subconscious psychoses and contemplations--Willow's retreat to the dark side, Xander's abandonment of Anya, Giles' departure, Buffy's anemic response to being the Slayer--these issues were (mostly) overlooked in the fifth season. This seems to be quite a deliberate process on Joss' part. In the scope of a series that as been unfolding for six years, it seems only prudent to invoke a disunity between the Scoobies. 'Restless' was a product of their unity--a consequence for a collaboration (the spell in 'Primeval') that was somehow wrong. Now in the sixth season those fears are addressed with searing backlashes for all--hence, the depravity, the loneliness, the lies.
But I digress. The question at hand remains: Who was the real 'Big Bad'? I say that it is not the Scoobies, but their fears. You could argue with me that their fears are apart of them and therefore the Scoobies are still the 'Big Bad', but I'll retort right back. The profundity of their fears is uncontrollable; they cannot adequately recognize or suppress them. This day has been coming for two years as 'Restless' proves. The Troika were what is called a Hitchcockian MacGuffin--a threat that is at once real, but in the end, is merely a backdrop for a larger threat looming in the horizon.
In closing, the nature to destroy ourselves is a part of human nature. Ultimately, this destruction is regretably inevitable and there is little we can do to stop it. 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer' is rather evocative because it does not shy away from the dark side of the human condition. We've seen it with Faith; we've seen it with Buffy; and now we've seen it with Willow, as well.
[If anyone is still reading, thank you. I like to write about film and television. I find it utterly fascinating to disect narratives and genre. That's why these forums are fabulous.]
I understand the many views fans have of S6 and, after all, we are all entitled to our opinions. However, I do not know how the series could have worked appropriately if there wasn't this separation between the Scoobies. As far back (and possibly further) as 'Restless' we are introduced to the fears that our core characters inherently possess. Interestingly enough, 'Restless' was a season finale, which is why I believe it holds great significance in the whole of the series. S6 seems to be reminiscent of all these deep and lurking subconscious psychoses and contemplations--Willow's retreat to the dark side, Xander's abandonment of Anya, Giles' departure, Buffy's anemic response to being the Slayer--these issues were (mostly) overlooked in the fifth season. This seems to be quite a deliberate process on Joss' part. In the scope of a series that as been unfolding for six years, it seems only prudent to invoke a disunity between the Scoobies. 'Restless' was a product of their unity--a consequence for a collaboration (the spell in 'Primeval') that was somehow wrong. Now in the sixth season those fears are addressed with searing backlashes for all--hence, the depravity, the loneliness, the lies.
But I digress. The question at hand remains: Who was the real 'Big Bad'? I say that it is not the Scoobies, but their fears. You could argue with me that their fears are apart of them and therefore the Scoobies are still the 'Big Bad', but I'll retort right back. The profundity of their fears is uncontrollable; they cannot adequately recognize or suppress them. This day has been coming for two years as 'Restless' proves. The Troika were what is called a Hitchcockian MacGuffin--a threat that is at once real, but in the end, is merely a backdrop for a larger threat looming in the horizon.
In closing, the nature to destroy ourselves is a part of human nature. Ultimately, this destruction is regretably inevitable and there is little we can do to stop it. 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer' is rather evocative because it does not shy away from the dark side of the human condition. We've seen it with Faith; we've seen it with Buffy; and now we've seen it with Willow, as well.
[If anyone is still reading, thank you. I like to write about film and television. I find it utterly fascinating to disect narratives and genre. That's why these forums are fabulous.]
Spike Lover
Buffy fanatic ! ! !
Lol . . . eh, where to start!? I read it all and i think you have fascinating views and write very intelligent, shall i say, essays? Lol, really it was very good.
You may be right in that they needed to drift apart, in a way, for it all to work. But that doesnt mean i liked that it had to happen. I loved S6, as i do them all, but this aspect of it, while making the usual entertaining and deep episodes, obviously wasnt very happy. But it didnt have to be happy - i suppose it shouldnt have been. While this had to happen - i hope its over now. Now that the vital splitting has happned, hopefully things can get back on track. They obviously will never be like they were before, but they can get back a new, closer and more understanding friendship, all of them. It will be different but that doesnt mean it will be worse.
😀
You may be right in that they needed to drift apart, in a way, for it all to work. But that doesnt mean i liked that it had to happen. I loved S6, as i do them all, but this aspect of it, while making the usual entertaining and deep episodes, obviously wasnt very happy. But it didnt have to be happy - i suppose it shouldnt have been. While this had to happen - i hope its over now. Now that the vital splitting has happned, hopefully things can get back on track. They obviously will never be like they were before, but they can get back a new, closer and more understanding friendship, all of them. It will be different but that doesnt mean it will be worse.
😀
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spacemankgh
Guest
What an excellent post, Jenni.
So what do you think will happen to Willow and her magic next season? Do you think she will be powerless?
So what do you think will happen to Willow and her magic next season? Do you think she will be powerless?
As things stand now, I think Willow will most definitely have to refrain from using magic. That much is clear. Her power has been developing for sometime and as we have learned, it wasn't the magic she was addicted to, but the power involved. For a number of seasons we have seen Willow in the backseat, waiting and wanting to be on the front lines. I don't think I'm being obtuse when I say that Willow has always had some jealousy issues with Buffy. As 'Restless' implies, Willow has been hiding. From what? Herself, of course. Not from her geek self, but from her dark Wiccan half. Although I don't think she was quite aware of the magnitude of the power she possessed, she was aware that there was an untapped part of her neuroses that was, in fact, dangerous.
So, yes. The Scoobies will not let her relapse because they know now what lies inside of the witch. But as to what will happen in S7--I can't quite say. Only time will tell.
So, yes. The Scoobies will not let her relapse because they know now what lies inside of the witch. But as to what will happen in S7--I can't quite say. Only time will tell.
Spike Lover
Buffy fanatic ! ! !
Originally posted by spacemankgh
What an excellent post, Jenni.
So what do you think will happen to Willow and her magic next season? Do you think she will be powerless?
I totally agree - excellent stuff! 🙂
"Absolutely...in life, it is the tragedies that often unite us. I think we are going to see the Scoobies stronger than they have ever been before, even without the aid of Willow's magic."
- I TOTALLY AGREE!
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Topshot101
Guest
I think they were all bad in their own way, the geeks killing Tara, Willow doing her big bad thang and the scoobies, I dont think they helped Willow enough. They also need to grow up a bit as well.
Spike Lover - I love that quote too!
Spike Lover - I love that quote too!
SlayersNite
:+: Buffy's World :+:
...The big bad was Spike!! Even with the chip, he was still all evil. Hehehehhehe, dont u just love him?
Double Post: -
Wow, ok, I obviously posted way too fast. I didn't read wot Jenni had to say. I take that back, Spike was not the 'Big Bad'. Im not sure who it was now, but Im kinda having trouble understanding something: Wot was all the scoobies fears? Were they physical or mental? Do we even know? Have we ever known?
Double Post: -
Wow, ok, I obviously posted way too fast. I didn't read wot Jenni had to say. I take that back, Spike was not the 'Big Bad'. Im not sure who it was now, but Im kinda having trouble understanding something: Wot was all the scoobies fears? Were they physical or mental? Do we even know? Have we ever known?
Originally posted by SlayersNite
...The big bad was Spike!! Even with the chip, he was still all evil. Hehehehhehe, dont u just love him?
Double Post: -
Wow, ok, I obviously posted way too fast. I didn't read wot Jenni had to say. I take that back, Spike was not the 'Big Bad'. Im not sure who it was now, but Im kinda having trouble understanding something: Wot was all the scoobies fears? Were they physical or mental? Do we even know? Have we ever known?
I don't remember if I go into what their fears are in this essay, but it is the only one I have up right now...It is the annotated version of my previous post.
http://www.geocities.com/jenni_lou_umbaugh/neuroses.html
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EvilVampire
Guest
Hey, Jennilou, great posts. 🙂
The only point I don't completely agree is that I'd like to see Willow do magic again, only this time getting to control it (but that's just me, I've got to admit I'm biased towards Willow😉).
Regarding The Troika, and Willow, I agree neither one qualifies as a "Big Bad".
The Troika (maybe I should say Warren, the worst of them, because they were not always a unit) were "Bad" but not a "Big Bad" such as those we saw in previous seasons (that is, in an apocalyptic, end-of-the-world kind of way). They (he) didn't have that kind of power. "“ Jonathan wasn't even so evil (to some extent, one could say he saved Buffy from Warren, though he'd given Warren his power, in the first place).
So, I think Warren was just a medium-level bad who exert great influence over Jonathan and Andrew and had a lot of good luck, for most of the season at least. (Ironically, the event that triggered Willow's change, and his death, was a case of very bad luck; what were the chances that the only stray bullet hit Tara and killed her immediately?)
In the case of Willow, it's the other way around, I think. As far as power is concerned, IMO she clearly had (has?) enough of it to be considered a "Big Bad". However, I don't think she was evil enough to be considered one. True, without Xander's intervention she'd have killed everybody (or not?), but ultimately, she stopped because of the humanity in her (that is, because she wasn't totally evil). I can't imagine any of the previous "Big Bad" stopping for that sort of reason. They stopped only because they were defeated by a stronger opponent (or opponents), but if they (any of them) had been powerful enough to defeat anybody who got in the way (as Willow was: according to Giles no supernatural or magical force could stop her), they wouldn't have stopped. Willow did, and that's one of the reasons why I think she doesn't belong in the "Big Bad" category. Also, I'm not sure she had full control over her actions. Plus, the reason why she wanted to destroy everything was entirely different from the other villains'; not that the motive makes her not evil, but I think she was "evil" in a different way (and not totally so).
The only point I don't completely agree is that I'd like to see Willow do magic again, only this time getting to control it (but that's just me, I've got to admit I'm biased towards Willow😉).
Regarding The Troika, and Willow, I agree neither one qualifies as a "Big Bad".
The Troika (maybe I should say Warren, the worst of them, because they were not always a unit) were "Bad" but not a "Big Bad" such as those we saw in previous seasons (that is, in an apocalyptic, end-of-the-world kind of way). They (he) didn't have that kind of power. "“ Jonathan wasn't even so evil (to some extent, one could say he saved Buffy from Warren, though he'd given Warren his power, in the first place).
So, I think Warren was just a medium-level bad who exert great influence over Jonathan and Andrew and had a lot of good luck, for most of the season at least. (Ironically, the event that triggered Willow's change, and his death, was a case of very bad luck; what were the chances that the only stray bullet hit Tara and killed her immediately?)
In the case of Willow, it's the other way around, I think. As far as power is concerned, IMO she clearly had (has?) enough of it to be considered a "Big Bad". However, I don't think she was evil enough to be considered one. True, without Xander's intervention she'd have killed everybody (or not?), but ultimately, she stopped because of the humanity in her (that is, because she wasn't totally evil). I can't imagine any of the previous "Big Bad" stopping for that sort of reason. They stopped only because they were defeated by a stronger opponent (or opponents), but if they (any of them) had been powerful enough to defeat anybody who got in the way (as Willow was: according to Giles no supernatural or magical force could stop her), they wouldn't have stopped. Willow did, and that's one of the reasons why I think she doesn't belong in the "Big Bad" category. Also, I'm not sure she had full control over her actions. Plus, the reason why she wanted to destroy everything was entirely different from the other villains'; not that the motive makes her not evil, but I think she was "evil" in a different way (and not totally so).
I totally get you, EvilVampire....as for the magic, I now know whether Willow still has it or not...I wrote all this on pure speculation, but as a spoilerwhore I have discovered the truth...Just wanted to say that I had no idea about whether magic would still be a part of Willow or not...
And I can't blame you for being biased against Willow...I can't blame you at all...😉
And I can't blame you for being biased against Willow...I can't blame you at all...😉
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EvilVampire
Guest
Hey, I'm not biased against Willow. LOL!!
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Regarding the magic, I've got to admit that I read some spoilers too (no details, though). Anyway, what I said in my post is just what I'd like to see, as I'd posted somewhere else before the spoilers appeared. (it was a fun thread, but the board is down for now and I can't post the link here anyway, so I'd better leave it there😉).