The care & feeding of MagickWillow

VisionGirl

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We've touched on this in various discussions, but I got to thinking today about why Willow went dark. I was thinking about how her interest in magic was ignored by the people around her. Those same people didn't seem to see where she was going with it. The only ones who did were villains (Spike for instance, D'Hoffryn, Sweet, etc). I can't help but think that if her skills, power, and interest had been instructed & directed (kind of like what Giles did with Buffy), things would have turned out differently. She had absolutely nobody to turn to about this. There didn't seem to be an active coven around, or at least it was never suggested that she learn with others with more experience. The Wicca group on campus was a joke, except Tara. Amy was a rat LOL, and not a great role model when she came back. The more obvious choices for teachers were Giles and Jenny, but Giles was so involved with being Buffy's Watcher and Jenny was... well, dead.

Thoughts?
 
Giles did notice that she was going bad but that didn't stop him from going to England. Silly Watcher.

I do think that it would have gone a lot differently had Willow had someone to guide her. Anyone learning to wield that kind of power should have some guidance.
 
T
Tintaglia
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Giles did notice that she was going bad but that didn't stop him from going to England. Silly Watcher.

I do think that it would have gone a lot differently had Willow had someone to guide her. Anyone learning to wield that kind of power should have some guidance.

And by the time Giles noticed it was way too late anyway. She obviously had an affinity to magic, it was apparent from early on, but it seems to me that everybody thought she was "dabbling". Then again, Xander & Buffy didn't know a lot about witches. Giles, Jenny and Anya should've known better.
 
Well ever since he found out Willow was doing anything with magic in season 2, Giles was warning Willow about the dangers of magic and getting "too powerful." He didn't want her to do the restoration spell because it was messing with something more powerful than she had ever done. He was pointing out she needed to be careful with magic in seasons 2-5. She knew bringing Buffy back in Bargaining was another one of those "messing with something more powerful than she needs to be" things and that's why she didn't tell Giles. I believe she kept a lot from him... She knew he could be a magic mentor if she went to him and asked him to be, but she didn't want that. She didn't want boundaries and limitations. She wanted to do what she wanted when she wanted. She wanted to explore the vast power she had (while at the same time, denying it was all that vast). She wanted to do things she didn't know was going to work and at the same time become more powerful and experienced. I don't think she would have gone to any mentor or mentor like thing or place to learn about how to responsibly do magic. She wasn't interested in that, she just wanted to do it.
 
wickedtiger86
wickedtiger86
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nightshade
nightshade
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When she met Tara, Tara was the one who should've helped her focus her power. I mean, Tara had been doing magic longer than Willow had been doing it and it seemed it was more of a bloodline thing than a "Pick it up because it's useful" thing. From "Hush" I got the feeling that Tara had more power than Willow during the moving of the machine simply because Willow couldn't do it on her own and Tara's power helped infinitely.

For whatever reason, they decided to de-power Tara and her natural ability in favor of Willow who had to really study in order to know what she was doing and over powering Willow. Which doesn't make much sense to me. Tara would've been a better guide (especially because they had the whole Wicca = Lesbian metaphor and thus Tara was more experienced than Willow) than as an ass kisser.
 
When she met Tara, Tara was the one who should've helped her focus her power. I mean, Tara had been doing magic longer than Willow had been doing it and it seemed it was more of a bloodline thing than a "Pick it up because it's useful" thing. From "Hush" I got the feeling that Tara had more power than Willow during the moving of the machine simply because Willow couldn't do it on her own and Tara's power helped infinitely.

For whatever reason, they decided to de-power Tara and her natural ability in favor of Willow who had to really study in order to know what she was doing and over powering Willow. Which doesn't make much sense to me. Tara would've been a better guide (especially because they had the whole Wicca = Lesbian metaphor and thus Tara was more experienced than Willow) than as an ass kisser.

Well when Tara first meets Willow she tells her she doesn't have the power Willow does.

From Hush:
Tara: Always, I mean, since I um, was little... my, my mom used to,
She um, she had a lot of power, like you.
Willow: Oh I'm not {{li}}.. I don't have much in the way of power.
She smiles.
Willow: Really, I mean most of my potions come out soup. Besides... spells going awry, friends in danger... I'm definitely nothing special.
Tara: No, you are.

I always got from that exchange Tara telling Willow that Willow had more natural power than Tara.
 
Brilliant thread.

Clearly our beloved Willow cannot be blamed for going dark. She was but a young high school student, clearly on her way to Harvard or Yale, before Buffy and Giles corrupted her.

Giles, as the older, wiser, and highly educated Watcher, who seems to know everything about everything, thanks to his books, failed to realize that the highly intelligent Willow would learn magic so quickly. Why didn't he see it coming? Hadn't this happened before? Didn't the Watcher's Council or Wesley see it coming? So many wise men failed to see what was happening.

Willow could have been a Nobel Prize winner. She could have cured cancer. Instead, she will forever be forced to put "Tried to Destroy World" on the job applications she submits at McDonald's, Piggly Wiggly, and Taco Bell.

And for that, I will never forgive Giles or Buffy.
 
Interesting topic.

The thing is, in retrospect they absolutely had a responsibility to help her, as friends and as a mentor--but in reality they needed her. I mean sure, at first Giles was reluctant to let her practice, but how long could he really keep that up? Once she had proven that she could do something as complicated and invaluable as restoring Angel's soul, it went without saying that they would be calling upon her talents again. (And truly, even that early on, nobody wanted to say it). Even when they didn't explicitly ask for magic, they would ask for daunting, nearly impossible tasks which after a certain point Willow discovered she could replace/make easier, with spells. Even as it became obvious that Willow was beginning to lean a bit too much on her powers, who was going to tell her to stop? And by season 5, Giles didn't have the time or the resources (I imagine) to help harness her power. Furthermore, what if he'd attempted to, and doing so had weakened her in some way? I mean, when she was putting up that shield or bringing Buffy out of her catatonic state in "Spiral," nobody was going to comment on how she really needed to cool it with the magic as soon as they got home, lol.

I think the bottom line is that times got progressively tougher and scarier, and Willow's powers progressed accordingly. Should they have done something to help their friend? Probably, yes. Could they have afforded to? Maybe not. It's unfortunate, of course, but there it is.
 
M
Ms.Trick
Wow, you're so right!
I always got from that exchange Tara telling Willow that Willow had more natural power than Tara.

I always got that Tara was hitting on Willow. I'm only basing my assumption on the scene from the laundry room. It was only with Tara's power that they could even move the machine, Willow on her own was pretty weak (she could only float a pencil still), but Tara's boost seemed strong enough to move the machine, which to me says a lot of power.

Besides, Tara didn't think highly of herself at all by this point, so it wouldn't be out of character or odd to think that she'd put Willow above her.
 
To me Giles should have taught her but he seemed to let his own opinions get in the way I also think it was mixed with jealousy in ways (not very much just some). It seemed she was going to be more experienced and he even said it one time. So I don't honestly know why he wouldn't try to help her. Then he made that comment in season six and he still didn't try to help. He is the only one I think that could have guided her in the right direction. Giles always noticed though which is why I think sometimes what is he thinking? I mean he himself had struggles you think he would have of saw them.

I would say Tara as well but then she didn't really have the power to always stand up to Willow. Willow was more of the leader in the relationship so I don't see that working very well.
 
I always got that Tara was hitting on Willow.
Well that too... but...


I'm only basing my assumption on the scene from the laundry room. It was only with Tara's power that they could even move the machine, Willow on her own was pretty weak (she could only float a pencil still), but Tara's boost seemed strong enough to move the machine, which to me says a lot of power.
If Tara could have moved it by herself, when she saw what Willow was trying to do, wouldn't she have just moved it? Instead she combined her power with Willow's. I always kind of felt like the point of that bit was to show how in sync they already were and that neither of them could have done it alone. And sure, then, Tara was a "better" witch than Willow. But Willow had more natural power and that's why she was able to improve so quickly.

Besides, Tara didn't think highly of herself at all by this point, so it wouldn't be out of character or odd to think that she'd put Willow above her.
I don't think Willow was above her in terms of actual magic ability. Tara didn't either. Neither did Willow. But Willow was above Tara in terms of natural power. Which is something Tara refers to again throughout the seasons. The one example that comes to mind is OMWF. "But your power's shown, brighter than any I've known." I know they were doing the magic=lesbianism metaphor... but it also rings true literally.

Willow's natural power is also referred to by Amy... Amy's jealousy of that natural power is why she puts the hex on Willow in The Killer in Me.
 
Clearly our beloved Willow cannot be blamed for going dark. She was but a young high school student, clearly on her way to Harvard or Yale, before Buffy and Giles corrupted her.

Corrupted... hm, thats' a way too strong a word in this for me. And even if you're a young high school student there is such a thing as personal responsibility. Not to mention lessons to be learned, that you need to learn on your own through your own mistakes...

As for corrupted, lining up to help with what Willow seemed to consider a 'higher mission' of saving the world on a weekly basis and helping her friend not die. I'm not sure I'd say that's being corrupted.

Giles, as the older, wiser, and highly educated Watcher, who seems to know everything about everything, thanks to his books, failed to realize that the highly intelligent Willow would learn magic so quickly. Why didn't he see it coming? Hadn't this happened before? Didn't the Watcher's Council or Wesley see it coming? So many wise men failed to see what was happening.

It's really easy to condemn people for missing something that seems so blatantly obvious in hind sight, but like with any abuser, Willow's problems came very gradually. It's not uncommon that parents could miss the decline into a destructive life style so to say that Giles, Wesley or the Watcher's council (based on their 'intelligence') should have seen it coming is unreasonable.

Also, not to be harsh, but it wasn't as if their eyes were on Willow. They were all there to further the cause of the Slayer and to, repeatedly, save the world from evil. If something slips through the cracks, even in their midst, I don't find it very strange at all and even less something they should be judged for. Nothing is a given, Willow could have been just fine hadn't she made bad choice and not adhered to Giles' repeated warnings.


Willow could have been a Nobel Prize winner. She could have cured cancer. Instead, she will forever be forced to put "Tried to Destroy World" on the job applications she submits at McDonald's, Piggly Wiggly, and Taco Bell.

And for that, I will never forgive Giles or Buffy.

Before that she was part of a more or less weekly fight to save the world, helping the side of good (she's not the first white hat corrupted by power, won't be the last, and she can come back from it.) and I'd say that that sounds just as good as "nobel prize winner" or an assistant to the cure of cancer (single handedly curing it? Nah, we're talking research and teamwork here 🙂). The only thing missing is public acclaim and a shiny plaque, both of which I'm sure Willow didn't care very much about.

But these things she willingly gave up at the end of seasons three. And not for power. But for the cause of saving the world.
 
Z
zobothehobo
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Goby
Goby
Taake, this is awesome. Wow!
Remember how the coven in England took her in at the beginning of season 7? That's what I'm thinking about- a group of witches who understood power & magic (not those blessed wannabes at UCSD), and understood her power. A group of people that would not discourage her use of magic (I think that was one of Giles' mistakes- telling a teenager that she shouldn't try out dangerous stuff that she clearly has an affinity for never works. He should know from his own younger days!), but instead would help her channel it and understand it. Who would talk about what magic can do for and to you. I agree with others- I think Giles and Wesley were simply too busy (they had 2 Slayers to deal with at that point!) to work with her.
 
Goby
Goby
Correct! Giles and Wesley failed my beloved Willow. :(
L
LoveLoveLovix
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Brilliant thread.

Clearly our beloved Willow cannot be blamed for going dark. She was but a young high school student, clearly on her way to Harvard or Yale, before Buffy and Giles corrupted her.

Giles, as the older, wiser, and highly educated Watcher, who seems to know everything about everything, thanks to his books, failed to realize that the highly intelligent Willow would learn magic so quickly. Why didn't he see it coming? Hadn't this happened before? Didn't the Watcher's Council or Wesley see it coming? So many wise men failed to see what was happening.

Willow could have been a Nobel Prize winner. She could have cured cancer. Instead, she will forever be forced to put "Tried to Destroy World" on the job applications she submits at McDonald's, Piggly Wiggly, and Taco Bell.

And for that, I will never forgive Giles or Buffy.

While I definately agree that Giles should have been more attentive and helped to guide Willow in the use of her magicks, I think that the wrong decisions that Willow made should not be blamed on anyone but herself. Everyone has a choice, and blaming it all on others is not the way to go. I love Willow alot, but everything that she did, good or bad, should be credited to her, because everyone makes their own decisions at the end of the day.
Also Giles wasn't her watcher, he didn't have a responsibility for making sure she used her powers in the right way. Of course, he grew into a more fatherly role for her, so I do think that he should have been more attentive. But also her friends, girlfriend, etc. completely seemed to ignore the problem until it was too late. I really think that was a major hole plot, because it wouldn't seem that everyone would just not notice it, cause at the end it was really consuming her life. I personally think the magick Willow story in general was one of the weakest arcs on the show.
 
Well, if they had done it differently, they couldn't have used it so much like a "see kiddies, drugs are bad" after school special.

I really view it though, more as an issue of Willow's in a different way. I think part of it is, like Anya and Xander mention in Smashed, how the really responsible types really lose it when they get a loss of control, 'cause they don't know how to handle it - since they haven't let themselves be like that even in moderation before. I think Willow's journey is both about learning to find the middle ground, between "dependable" Willow and scary-powerful DarkWillow. Also, she still has to work to reconcile who she wants to be, and the former high school version of herself she no longer wants to be. I think she would have needed guidance more for just figuring out who she is, wants to be, etc., than just regarding the magic usage. If S4 had been different, and her and Buffy were still BFF's spending most of their time together and really talking to each other, that would have had more of an impact on her eventual out of control magic.
 
Remember how the coven in England took her in at the beginning of season 7? That's what I'm thinking about- a group of witches who understood power & magic (not those blessed wannabes at UCSD), and understood her power. A group of people that would not discourage her use of magic (I think that was one of Giles' mistakes- telling a teenager that she shouldn't try out dangerous stuff that she clearly has an affinity for never works. He should know from his own younger days!), but instead would help her channel it and understand it. Who would talk about what magic can do for and to you. I agree with others- I think Giles and Wesley were simply too busy (they had 2 Slayers to deal with at that point!) to work with her.

But I don't think she would have gone. Because no, they wouldn't discourage her to do magic... but they would set boundaries and limitations for her. Some magic would be off limits just because of how dark it is. I'm saying I don't think Willow would have responded to that well. Anything being off limits is too much limitation for her IMO.
 
But I don't think she would have gone. Because no, they wouldn't discourage her to do magic... but they would set boundaries and limitations for her. Some magic would be off limits just because of how dark it is. I'm saying I don't think Willow would have responded to that well. Anything being off limits is too much limitation for her IMO.

But I think in the beginning (season 2ish) she might've gone, she probably would've loved that. She was really looking forward to the campus Wicca group and having some "magically inclined" friends. Yes, I still think there would've been conflict & it might not have avoided DarkWillow.

Ooh, so I'm sitting here thinking how different things would've been if she would have gone to LA with Angel instead of or along with Cordelia. Wes for one probably would have devoted more time to helping her as she developed her magic. And Alexis & Alyson together: that would've been cool! I don't know, then again the AI gang couldn't control Angel when he decided to go off on his own, they probably couldn't have controlled her either. I just wonder if they might have had more time for her, as their energies weren't completely focused on helping a Slayer.
 
Can you blame Giles's not caring and nurturing Willow? Didn't he already have a full time job of being a watcher to a slayer?
That laundry room incident when Willow was trying to move the machine, she was making the machine rock back and forth, only a little more power was needed to make it move. Anyone's presence would have done the job. (When Willow made the portal to get Buffy back in season 7 ep 15, Willow used the power of two in the room.)
Tara did a lot of spells, it was when she did magic using her natural ability, and not confined by the religious wiccan creed, that she got the scoobies not to see demons.
Tara dumped Willow because she was using her natural magic to often. That would appear to me to be a controlling influence.
Had Willow and Tara not used magic together, the chances are Willow would not have gone bad.
 
I don't know. I kinda think that it was the "bad magic" Amy introduced her to that put her over the edge; that prior to that, the magic she was using was either neutral or good.
 
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