The character that changed / evolved the most?

[bespangeled]

And slapped away Angel's offer to apologise and come back the very next episode. Self-righteous.

Actually, it was Angel who said they were even - no apology needed - and Wes gave Angel what he knew he really wanted, all the info on Cordelia. But Wesley had his own team - why would he go back to Angel? He had moved on, and he was fighting the same fight, not pining to get back into AI.

Whislt being in bed with W&H?
Yep, having some hot sex with Lilah is tearing him up inside. 😀

I love Weslah - frankly a lot more than Fresley! I never said Wesley was forsaken and miserable, only that he evolved. 😛

Again, I'm not gonna play the 'which character did worse' game- that isn't the point.🙄

Changing the rules? 🙂

Wesley did not get better or stronger, he just got 'cooler' or darker, the guy for whom 'the ends will always justify the means'.
He didn't learn from his mistakes or even attempt to make amends, he never even acknowledged them, he just went on about how everyone was a big meanie to him.

There are those, though, that would see spending months looking for Angel, finding him, feeding him and returning him to AI - instead of dithering and letting him starve under the ocean forever - at least the start toward making amends. Others apparently need him to fall to his knees, weep, sob, beat his chest, declare himself unworthy, cut off his hair, and cover himself with ashes and sackcloth, or whatever.....not useful but a really great show.

As for a verbal apology, how could you ever say anything that would make any difference?

Actually - he was always the guy for whom 'the ends will always justify the means' - even back when he fought against rescuing Willow. He just learned that there was always a price - and that he was strong enough to pay the price. In the case of Willow, he expected her to pay the price. By the time Fred was gone, and he was dealing with Illyria, he was the one who paid the price even though it was Angel who had wronged them all and created this situation.

Exactly when did he complain that everyone was a big meanie?

I think Jasmine simply saw an opportunity and then took it. The rest was deception on her part.

Yes, I just think she stepped in earlier. She was part of the PTB - the group that arranged every bit of Angel's life once Doyle was instructed to meet Angel. If you don't want to believe she did what she said she did - that's fine - but she had all the power and the access she needed to do it.

 

[Iwearthecheese]

Actually, it was Angel who said they were even - no apology needed - and Wes gave Angel what he knew he really wanted, all the info on Cordelia.

That just sums Wes up. 'I know why you're really here'. 😉
And sure Angel said that an apology wasn't needed, but he still wanted one ( in his dream he indicated that) and it still would've been something that a decent person would do 'sorry about having a hand in destroying your sons childhood'.
Or better yet, maybe look out for Connor? Since Wes had a direct had in how he turned out the way he did. But he barely acknowledges his existence past 'the kid is a useful fighter'.
Too utilitarian for me; Wes uses people until to do what he wants. Lilah, Faith, whoever. He's like that until S5.

Changing the rules?

Yeah. I'm talking about improving as opposed to changing. All the characters change, all of them fall and get up. It's what they do afterwards that matters. How do they learn from what they did.

There are those, though, that would see spending months looking for Angel, finding him, feeding him and returning him to AI - instead of dithering and letting him starve under the ocean forever - at least the start toward making amends. Others apparently need him to fall to his knees, weep, sob, beat his chest, declare himself unworthy, cut off his hair, and cover himself with ashes and sackcloth, or whatever.....not useful but a really great show.

When did I say I was looking for any of that? I didn't, I just want to see some contrition, learning his lesson, and then moving on.
He only moves on by throwing himself in with Angel and W&H- that's not progression of any sort.

Actually - he was always the guy for whom 'the ends will always justify the means'

Exactly. He doesn't evolve past that simplistic viewpoint, even when it costs him everything. I guess he was always destined to die.

Exactly when did he complain that everyone was a big meanie?

The Price and Spin The Bottle of the top of my head, but I'm sure there more. Maybe the one with Fred and the portals? Also his trying to get between Fred and Gunn. Another creep-move.

 

[Blair]

Because I could never fully get into Angel, I'm gunna go with Willow. The confidence growth is incredible. Going a full circle- computer hacker, becoming a witch, going back into computer hacking, controlling witchy powers. For me it's her.

From what I did see of Angel, Wesley is definitely the one who's evolved for mostly better... (Well, totally an improvement from Buffy)

 

[bespangeled]

Or better yet, maybe look out for Connor? Since Wes had a direct had in how he turned out the way he did. But he barely acknowledges his existence past 'the kid is a useful fighter'.

Yeah, he could have done something like try to rescue him from the beast - oh, right, he did.😀

Too utilitarian for me; Wes uses people until to do what he wants. Lilah, Faith, whoever. He's like that until S5

Well, apparently he wants them alive - since he does save their lives repeatedly.😉

Yeah. I'm talking about improving as opposed to changing. All the characters change, all of them fall and get up. It's what they do afterwards that matters. How do they learn from what they did.

No - I wasn't specific enough. I said change the rules because you started out comparing Wes to Willow, and when I replied you said that you weren't comparing. No biggy - clearly we will never agree here. I still believe that Wesley's arc is the best one in the entire B-verse (second only to Spike).

 

[GoSpuffy]

I'm going with Spike. It is human to grow and change. Demons are not supposed to change. Also a lot of the change that happened to other characters happened to them (Illyria changed Fred) but Spike chose to change which I totally respect. Wesley and Willow grew up and matured into the adult versions of their younger selves which is to be expected. Not unlike how Buffy went from a teenager obessed with boys to a warrior. Spike was a vampire who chose to become something more than what his destiny preordained.

 

[Monkey Pants]

Spike always seemed the same to me, personality wise at least, soul or no soul. I guess why I rank them differently is I look at other characters (Willow, Faith, Wesley) and they seem like entirely different people than they used to be.

 

[bespangeled]

Spike always seemed the same to me, personality wise at least, soul or no soul. I guess why I rank them differently is I look at other characters (Willow, Faith, Wesley) and they seem like entirely different people than they used to be.

Oddly enough, I believe the complete opposite. Spike's mannerisms didn't change, but his core belief system completely flipped between season 2, and season 7.

OTH - Willow always wanted to change from the uber-nerd she was, wanted to explore dark power, and wanted others to validate her. Her path to her attempt to destroy the world doesn't seem to have any bumps or curves in it.

I guess it depends on how a person defines change! 😉

 

[Iwearthecheese]

Yeah, he could have done something like try to rescue him from the beast - oh, right, he did.

I thought he went in to save Lilah?

Well, apparently he wants them alive - since he does save their lives repeatedly.

Wesley didn't save Faith, he did try and make her 'go dark' by calling her a sick, filthy psychopath- because that's the kind of support she deserves apparently.
Wesley- possibly the worst Watcher ever.

I still don't think he cared about either of them besides a 'having some super-powered muscle to utilize' because he never showed any emotion even resembling warmth towards them.

No - I wasn't specific enough. I said change the rules because you started out comparing Wes to Willow

No, I never did- you were the first to bring in Willow's 'flaying' as a comparison to Wes's actions, not me. I never compared them. Your mistake I guess.

 

[gite63]

Spike is the one who most changed and evolved - he was a soulless demon who chose to become something else, something good. Wesley changed a lot, and suffered a lot. Any a changed - after being a demon for thousands of years, she ended up understanding and loving humans, to the point of regretting killing and offering her own life for the crimes she committed.

Wesley didn't save Faith, he did try and make her 'go dark' by calling her a sick, filthy psychopath- because that's the kind of support she deserves apparently.
Wesley- possibly the worst Watcher ever.

Why did Wesley have to have warm feelings towards Faith? She brutally tortured him, one of the most despicable crimes of all - if Angel hadn't arrived in time, she would have burned him. Wes was being a Watcher - he wanted to save his friend and the world, he was focused on the mission. And Faith used to be a sick, filthy psycopath - and suddenly, she wasn't anymore.

 

[Iwearthecheese]

Why did Wesley have to have warm feelings towards Faith?

He didn't have to and I never said he did.
But I reject the narrative that he ever had her wellbeing in mind. She was a useful tool and that's all.

And Faith used to be a sick, filthy psycopath - and suddenly, she wasn't anymore.

Wesley also called her a poor, sick girl at one point, and lets not forget the hand he had in sending her down that long path to evil way back in BtVs S3 for his own selfish reasons.
She was never a psychopath though, she just hated herself and took that anger out on Buffy because of jealosy.

And 'suddenly'? Yeah, that 3 years of murder rehab just flew by. 🙄

Anya changed the least. 1000 years and so little change is astonishing imv.
I agree about Spike though. That's a good example of a demon evolving, even if some of that change was forced on him.

 

[gite63]

And 'suddenly'? Yeah, that 3 years of murder rehab just flew by. 🙄

Killing, beating, torturing, crying in Angel's arms, good. For me, very suddenly...
 

But I reject the narrative that he ever had her wellbeing in mind.

Maybe not, but I don't blame him for that...

 

[Iwearthecheese]

Killing, beating, torturing, crying in Angel's arms, good. For me, very suddenly...

Actually her near constant self-hate had started well back the year before- that's where all the anger came from. The breakdown was just the last part of the long road she started down in 'Enemies'
If you don't see it fine, but lots of other people clearly do- which is why she's listed as one of the most improved/changed/evolved. 😉

 

[Klaus Kartoffel]

She was never a psychopath though, she just hated herself and took that anger out on Buffy because of jealosy.

Yup, and let's not forget that she was minor, nobody made a genuine attempt to check on her background or tried to assure her the best environment as possible under the given circumstances. It doesn't matter if she was stubborn. You insist, not timidly ask. I'm addressing the adults as in Giles, Wesley, the Council and in extend Angel and Joyce. I don't really blame Buffy, Willow or Xander for anything concerning Faith because they were teenagers too, as in stup-ahem immature.😉

 

[Iwearthecheese]

Maybe not, but I don't blame him for that...

Hey, forgiveness is always a noble thing imv, Tara forgave Willow for the mind-wipe thing, Buffy forgave Spike the attempted rape. Angel forgave Wesley for betraying him and kidnapping his son- some of the worst crimes on the show.

 

[gite63]

Yup, and let's not forget that she was minor, nobody made a genuine attempt to check on her background or tried to assure her the best environment as possible under the given circumstances. It doesn't matter if she was stubborn. You insist, not timidly ask. I'm addressing the adults as in Giles, Wesley, the Council and in extend Angel and Joyce. I don't really blame Buffy, Willow or Xander for anything concerning Faith because they were teenagers too, as in stup-ahem immature.

I agree with Giles; the Council... they were a bunch of idiots who would prefer Faith dead... Wesley was a fool back then; and Joyce, I don't see why she should be concerned with a strange wild girl. Giles, although being a Watcher, had a good relationship with his Slayer, so he developed some feelings outside of his duty... so he could have done something. Angel was willing to try, but Wesley...

Hey, forgiveness is always a noble thing imv, Tara forgave Willow for the mind-wipe thing, Buffy forgave Spike the attempted rape. Angel forgave Wesley for betraying him and kidnapping his son- some of the worst crimes on the show.

The difference is that they had been all friends/lovers/alies before/when the bad things happened; they had a connection, they liked or loved each other.
 

Actually her near constant self-hate had started well back the year before- that's where all the anger came from.

And about Faith's self-hate, frequently used as an excuse for all the evil she did: people that hate themselves can destroy their lives by becoming addicts or alcoholics, for instance, they hurt themselves, not others. What did Buffy do when she was hating herself? She had sex. What did Faith do?

 

[Klaus Kartoffel]

Joyce, I don't see why she should be concerned with a strange wild girl.

I separated Joyce and Angel from the other adults because I can grasp their situations basically. Angel wasn't used in dealing with human problems (and Faith's issues were mainly in human nature). He was first willing to try to help her as Buffy asked for it, though. Joyce was still overwhelmed with the whole supernatural thingy and Buffy is her first and foremost concern. Plus, Buffy kept her out of the loop most of the time when it came to Faith (or everything else). I think she would have tried harder to care about Faith if she knew what was really going on. BUT... I thought a bit lower about Joyce when she saw Faith as a chance that Buffy could lead a normal life and be safe. I get her feelings from a motherly point of view but it's still wrong.

 

[Iwearthecheese]

The difference is that they had been all friends/lovers/alies before/when the bad things happened

Which makes their betrayals WORSE not better. Betraying someone to profess to love is far, far worse.
I still feel that to forgive is always noble given the circustances.
Holding grudges for past sins- when the person who commited them is actively trying to make amends- is pointless.

And about Faith's self-hate, frequently used as an excuse for all the evil she did

No, not an excuse merely an explanation. You can choose to accept it or not.
Faith doesn't actually make excuses for her actions, not blames anybody but herself for her bad calls.

people that hate themselves can destroy their lives by becoming addicts or alcoholics, for instance, they hurt themselves, not others.

This is a massive generalisation given the number of addicts that hurt other people with self-destructive behaviour.
I honestly don't think you should tall about things you have no experience with.

What did Buffy do when she was hating herself? She had sex.

Off the top of my head?
She used somebody who loved her for sex, beat that same somebody to a bloody pulp (at least as bad as Glory did) and left him to die in the street, put all her friends in danger when she chose insane asylum over reality and tried to kill them all.
Buffy's made plenty of mistakes even when she wasn't eaten up with self-loathing.

Also S8- Buffy made incredibly bad judgement call and almost ended the world. Why? Because she was lonely. Which isn't even a good reason.

 

[gite63]

I thought a bit lower about Joyce when she saw Faith as a chance that Buffy could lead a normal life and be safe. I get her feelings from a motherly point of view but it's still wrong.

Not wrong coming from a mom - if she had done something to make sure her daughter was safe, then that would be wrong; but she only thought that Buffy could be free of her burden.

Which makes their betrayals WORSE not better. Betraying someone to profess to love is far, far worse.

I agree, but forgiving those we love/like it's easier...

She used somebody who loved her for sex, beat that same somebody to a bloody pulp (at least as bad as Glory did) and left him to die in the street, put all her friends in danger when she chose insane asylum over reality and tried to kill them all.

Buffy had her mind set for "evil soulles thing". What she did to Spike was bad and ugly (the alley beating), but he could have fought back; he accepeted taking it all, as he accepted what she was giving him at the moment. Vampire, big boy, he suffered, but he wasn't a helpless victim.

Buffy can't be blamed for choosing insanity over reality - she was out of herself, she was sick. Spike is the one who should be blamed for not having stayed e made sure that she took the medicine... instead, he gave his speech about telling her friends that they were together (he wanted to be in the light with her), and left.

Buffy's made plenty of mistakes even when she wasn't eaten up with self-loathing.

Mistakes we all do. Faith didn't make mistakes, she commited several serious crimes.

Hey, forgiveness is always a noble thing imv, Tara forgave Willow for the mind-wipe thing, Buffy forgave Spike the attempted rape. Angel forgave Wesley for betraying him and kidnapping his son- some of the worst crimes on the show.

When Faith escaped prison to help Faith, Wes was focused on the mission; and he had (good) reasons to not care much about Faith. Giles did worst, when he looked for her asking to kill a human; at that point, he should know better. Wes is dead, but I believe that if he wasn't, things would be different.

 

[Klaus Kartoffel]

Not wrong coming from a mom - if she had done something to make sure her daughter was safe, then that would be wrong; but she only thought that Buffy could be free of her burden.

You know, I can't really disagree with you about that. It just makes me squirm and uncomfortable. It's like "Hey, my daughter is constantly risking her life and probably won't survive the next year but wait, here is this new girl who is probably even younger. SHE could constantly risk her life and most likely die the next year so my daughter can live and be happy."
I didn't feel that Joyce was very conflicted about that. I think that was my main issue with her. It was kind of a matter of course for her.

 

[Monkey Pants]

You know, I can't really disagree with you about that. It just makes me squirm and uncomfortable. It's like "Hey, my daughter is constantly risking her life and probably won't survive the next year but wait, here is this new girl who is probably even younger. SHE could constantly risk her life and most likely die the next year so my daughter can live and be happy."
I didn't feel that Joyce was very conflicted about that. I think that was my main issue with her. It was kind of a matter of course for her.

I agree. I don't get in these scenes when people suggest that Faith could just take over while Buffy goes to college and chills. If they both slayed they could take the load off each other but to just leave it to one is totally selfish. Why do they assume Faith would even agree to that?