Hey peeps. This is my first post, and potentially my only topic. I actually sought out the forum to make this thread, and discuss some things i've had on my mind.
I started watching Buffy in the beginning. Initially, I was an Angel fan, and while sad his part in Buffy ended, was thrilled to see his show. I then followed both, somewhat preferring Angel and his team, and the often more mature themes of the show. None the less, I loved both, and watched both up til the very end of each.
However, like many, in the end it was Spike who turned out to be the most interesting character for me, if only because he was a breath of fresh air and had so much character development over the course of both shows.
(Just to be clear; i'm not making this thread from any line in the 'who should get Buffy' battle. Personally, I actually like Buffy herself least of any character in either show, it was the overall stories and other characters that made the shows for me. I loved that in angel, both vampires had growth apart from her, and had a bond that wasn't anything to do with her. I actually prefer both apart from her, on their own paths. For Angel this would be 'helping the helpless', but for Spike it can be a problem, as his nature is that of a rebel without a cause for the most part.)
Masters and Wheadon went out of their way to show that while he had snatches of his sire, as one would expect due to being taught most of what he knew early on by him, he was a different person to Angel. He was very much his own man, after having broken away early on, and made his own name. Angelus was the sadistic mastermind, and master manipulator, and later guilt driven champion who earnestly wanted to do the right thing and atone for his past. However, there was always a selfish undertone to everything he strove for, a shadow of Angelus.
Spike however embraced what he was, but in an impulsive manner, driven to be in the thick of excitement and of course to prove himself. No one can deny that part of that drive was to prove himself to and to become 'superior' to Angelus, as was shown in the various flashbacks to their early time together. Yet, on the way, he pretty much did so. The entire point of the episode 'Destiny' was that he had more or less dealt with those issues, and was a champion all of his own. Or as Angel put it, he wanted it more.
Despite having a ring of truth with his taunts, about trying to get into Buffy's pants, the fact that he wanted to be a better man - to deserve her - thats ignoring what a massive thing that is for a vampire to want in the first place, given their natures. His fight with Wood and the revelations in that episode also showed that he had grown. Then came them seeing Buffy with the immortal, and both simply letting her be.
My overall point is that while there are/where rivalries between the two men, and in the past some 'hero' worship on Spike's part, by Not Fade Away that had been largely resolved and Spike was very much his own man, and a Champion all his own through accomplishments and growth that had nothing to do with Angel/us.
This leads into the comics. I only very recently got around to reading Angel: After the Fall and Buffy Season 8 onwards. And i ahve to admit, I really don't like them, and personally have come to pretend they don't exist and that the final scene of Not Fade Away is infact the 'end'. Beyond that, perhaps the slayers turned up, or perhaps not, but I certainly don't consider the comics a worthy continuation.
My dislike stems from various things. How over the top things got. How cheaply character deathw as used and undone, in typical 'comic' manner. Various characters seemed completely OUT of character, with sometimes years of on screen growth overlooked simply for plot convenience. Much of it, in my opinion, reads like pretty bad fanfiction.
On the subject on this thread, one of my biggest gripes was Spike's portrayal. Early on in 'After the Fall' he seemed pretty much himself. But over time, where the themes of him trying to be like Angel came in, and then trying to 'find himself' and getting a space ship of all things, it all just seemed completely forced in an effort to force extra character development for a character who had already grown into his own. Spike was always Spike, and he was an interesting character because of who he was. Just how much of William still remained in him. His ability to be incredibly cunning, but generally too eager to get to the fight to make the most of it. All those little things that made him stand apart.
Of course, this is just one thing. To add to the above, none-Spike related points, there were things like old very-dead enemies popping back up. Buffy versus Angel, again. Willow having problems with magic. Dawn being a rebellious brat. Giles trying to manipulate and control Buffy. Buffy regressing back to her uncertain self again, rather than the woman grown she was in the last few episodes of the show. It was all retreading well trodden, and better told, ground/stories. Spike himself I don't think really even fits now, as the development he had set him up for standing on his own, and thus he doesn't fit a clear role in Buffy's crew anymore, nor do I feels hould he. His place int he later comics felt very forced to me.
I'm not sure i'm putting this across well, as its hard to condense my thoughts on seven seasons, a further five seasons, and now multiple 'series' of comics.
Provided i've explained my thoughts and opinions clearly enough, does anyone see where i'm coming from, and have thoughts along the same vein?
I started watching Buffy in the beginning. Initially, I was an Angel fan, and while sad his part in Buffy ended, was thrilled to see his show. I then followed both, somewhat preferring Angel and his team, and the often more mature themes of the show. None the less, I loved both, and watched both up til the very end of each.
However, like many, in the end it was Spike who turned out to be the most interesting character for me, if only because he was a breath of fresh air and had so much character development over the course of both shows.
(Just to be clear; i'm not making this thread from any line in the 'who should get Buffy' battle. Personally, I actually like Buffy herself least of any character in either show, it was the overall stories and other characters that made the shows for me. I loved that in angel, both vampires had growth apart from her, and had a bond that wasn't anything to do with her. I actually prefer both apart from her, on their own paths. For Angel this would be 'helping the helpless', but for Spike it can be a problem, as his nature is that of a rebel without a cause for the most part.)
Masters and Wheadon went out of their way to show that while he had snatches of his sire, as one would expect due to being taught most of what he knew early on by him, he was a different person to Angel. He was very much his own man, after having broken away early on, and made his own name. Angelus was the sadistic mastermind, and master manipulator, and later guilt driven champion who earnestly wanted to do the right thing and atone for his past. However, there was always a selfish undertone to everything he strove for, a shadow of Angelus.
Spike however embraced what he was, but in an impulsive manner, driven to be in the thick of excitement and of course to prove himself. No one can deny that part of that drive was to prove himself to and to become 'superior' to Angelus, as was shown in the various flashbacks to their early time together. Yet, on the way, he pretty much did so. The entire point of the episode 'Destiny' was that he had more or less dealt with those issues, and was a champion all of his own. Or as Angel put it, he wanted it more.
Despite having a ring of truth with his taunts, about trying to get into Buffy's pants, the fact that he wanted to be a better man - to deserve her - thats ignoring what a massive thing that is for a vampire to want in the first place, given their natures. His fight with Wood and the revelations in that episode also showed that he had grown. Then came them seeing Buffy with the immortal, and both simply letting her be.
My overall point is that while there are/where rivalries between the two men, and in the past some 'hero' worship on Spike's part, by Not Fade Away that had been largely resolved and Spike was very much his own man, and a Champion all his own through accomplishments and growth that had nothing to do with Angel/us.
This leads into the comics. I only very recently got around to reading Angel: After the Fall and Buffy Season 8 onwards. And i ahve to admit, I really don't like them, and personally have come to pretend they don't exist and that the final scene of Not Fade Away is infact the 'end'. Beyond that, perhaps the slayers turned up, or perhaps not, but I certainly don't consider the comics a worthy continuation.
My dislike stems from various things. How over the top things got. How cheaply character deathw as used and undone, in typical 'comic' manner. Various characters seemed completely OUT of character, with sometimes years of on screen growth overlooked simply for plot convenience. Much of it, in my opinion, reads like pretty bad fanfiction.
On the subject on this thread, one of my biggest gripes was Spike's portrayal. Early on in 'After the Fall' he seemed pretty much himself. But over time, where the themes of him trying to be like Angel came in, and then trying to 'find himself' and getting a space ship of all things, it all just seemed completely forced in an effort to force extra character development for a character who had already grown into his own. Spike was always Spike, and he was an interesting character because of who he was. Just how much of William still remained in him. His ability to be incredibly cunning, but generally too eager to get to the fight to make the most of it. All those little things that made him stand apart.
Of course, this is just one thing. To add to the above, none-Spike related points, there were things like old very-dead enemies popping back up. Buffy versus Angel, again. Willow having problems with magic. Dawn being a rebellious brat. Giles trying to manipulate and control Buffy. Buffy regressing back to her uncertain self again, rather than the woman grown she was in the last few episodes of the show. It was all retreading well trodden, and better told, ground/stories. Spike himself I don't think really even fits now, as the development he had set him up for standing on his own, and thus he doesn't fit a clear role in Buffy's crew anymore, nor do I feels hould he. His place int he later comics felt very forced to me.
I'm not sure i'm putting this across well, as its hard to condense my thoughts on seven seasons, a further five seasons, and now multiple 'series' of comics.
Provided i've explained my thoughts and opinions clearly enough, does anyone see where i'm coming from, and have thoughts along the same vein?
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B
Buffyverse Fan
Welcome!
Ethan Reigns
I have to agree - I have read the comic summaries and consider them to be unworthy. It seems like Joss has taken advantage of the rabid fan base and thought that anything with the Buffy name will be accepted.
