The Contrast of Bangel to Spuffy

[OhWow]

I ship both Spuffy and Bangel.

Bangel is like the ooey-gooey over-dramatic lovey-dovey sort of stuff.

Spuffy is a bit more realistic. Certainly more intense love scenes...

And yeah, Angel annoyed me in Amends. Crying about how he was such a baaaad man! He's just so lame sometimes.

 

[the pack]

(although s7 Spike has qualities that I truly admire and would like to see in a partner), but because Buffy and Spike are a perfect match for each other IMO.

Thanks for the welcome. That's interesting. I have not watched s7 besides the live shows. I did watch the closing arc (last 5 episodes or so) over. But I'll have to watch the whole season over again to maybe appreciate the above quote. The way I see it with Spike for the most part, is he's the "bad guy the girl thinks she can save with her love." Now in Buffy's case she's not even trying. Imagine that "chippy" Spike (starting in S4) is changing his "bad/evil hate the world persona" all for Buffy. All for the love of a girl. And for most of this metamorphosis Buffy could care less. In fact she's constantly putting him down. Spike continues to obsess and continues to try to prove himself to Buffy. Even going as far as becoming what one might call Buffy's "lap dog." Pretty powerful stuff for the girl who has to try "hard" to change the man she loves and may even fail. In fact at the time I remember so many post's about what a "b!tch" Buffy was and why won't she give poor Spike a chance. (I can only imagine the "pro' Spike mail Joss must of been receiving.) The Buffybot was disturbing and shows that Spike really is still not completely sane. I guess I just can't get over the fact that I held Buffy up to a higher level than most. And no matter how much Joss "explains" it away. I'll never forgive him for dragging Buffy down that low to Spike's level.

 

[nmcil12]

Thanks for the welcome. That's interesting. I have not watched s7 besides the live shows. I did watch the closing arc (last 5 episodes or so) over. But I'll have to watch the whole season over again to maybe appreciate the above quote. The way I see it with Spike for the most part, is he's the "bad guy the girl thinks she can save with her love." Now in Buffy's case she's not even trying. Imagine that "chippy" Spike (starting in S4) is changing his "bad/evil hate the world persona" all for Buffy. All for the love of a girl. And for most of this metamorphosis Buffy could care less. In fact she's constantly putting him down. Spike continues to obsess and continues to try to prove himself to Buffy. Even going as far as becoming what one might call Buffy's "lap dog." Pretty powerful stuff for the girl who has to try "hard" to change the man she loves and may even fail. In fact at the time I remember so many post's about what a "b!tch" Buffy was and why won't she give poor Spike a chance. (I can only imagine the "pro' Spike mail Joss must of been receiving.) The Buffybot was disturbing and shows that Spike really is still not completely sane. I guess I just can't get over the fact that I held Buffy up to a higher level than most. And no matter how much Joss "explains" it away. I'll never forgive him for dragging Buffy down that low to Spike's level.

Want to make one thing perfectly clear from the start - I am not at all interested in getting into a Spike is the Lowest of the Low and the complete degradation of Buffy. But I am very much interested in your views on how Buffy has not been completely corrupted in her premeditated attempt killing of Faith. What makes her relationship with Spike a "dragging Buffy down that low to Spike's level" and why would having turned her into an attempted murderess of Faith not be a an equivalent treatment?

In your opinion is one action, the Faith-Buffy attempt to feed Faith to Angel not a degradation of the character?

 

[StarSlayer]

The way I see it with Spike for the most part, is he's the "bad guy the girl thinks she can save with her love." Now in Buffy's case she's not even trying. Imagine that "chippy" Spike (starting in S4) is changing his "bad/evil hate the world persona" all for Buffy. All for the love of a girl. And for most of this metamorphosis Buffy could care less. In fact she's constantly putting him down. Spike continues to obsess and continues to try to prove himself to Buffy. Even going as far as becoming what one might call Buffy's "lap dog." Pretty powerful stuff for the girl who has to try "hard" to change the man she loves and may even fail. In fact at the time I remember so many post's about what a "b!tch" Buffy was and why won't she give poor Spike a chance. (I can only imagine the "pro' Spike mail Joss must of been receiving.) The Buffybot was disturbing and shows that Spike really is still not completely sane. I guess I just can't get over the fact that I held Buffy up to a higher level than most. And no matter how much Joss "explains" it away. I'll never forgive him for dragging Buffy down that low to Spike's level.

Here's the thing...I really view the Spuffy relationship as a journey. It's not simply defined by one moment or by being good/healthy (whatever you want to call it) throughout the entire relationship. It's about going through both the good and the bad (even very ugly), and still seeing that love is ultimately there. IMO, "Fool for Love" shows a completely different side of Spike, one that's not this simple "bad boy" we thought. He has a poet's heart (as Jane Espenson once said). Season 5 and season 6 is all about Spike's struggling not only with his feelings for Buffy, but his identity. I hate the word "lap dog" for describing Spike (and any person who falls in love and tries to woo the girl). And while the Buffybot is disturbing, the episode ("Intervention") ends on an amazing note. Not only does Buffy forgive Spike for the Buffybot, Spike felt guilty over it. He begins to learn what real love is and can be from that episode onward.

Season 7 shows a souled Spike, maybe a resurfaced William. Sure, he's still a vampire (there's a demon), but he's learned to control it by getting a soul. And that's when I started to see great qualities in Spike. "Touched" is critical for me. Spike provides Buffy with the strength she needed, at a time she was at her most vulnerable. She was abandoned by her friends, her own sister, her father figure, and the potentials, who she helped train. Spike listened to her doubts and fears, and then told her how she's not only an amazing slayer, but an amazing woman.

In the end, Buffy didn't get dragged down to Spike's level. In fact, Spike was always considered "beneath" Buffy. Instead, Spike moved up to Buffy's level. He not only became good, but a champion, and certainly worthy of Buffy's love. He ultimately earned it, and without question, Buffy loved him back. 🙂

 

[the pack]

In the end, Buffy didn't get dragged down to Spike's level. In fact, Spike was always considered "beneath" Buffy. Instead, Spike moved up to Buffy's level. He not only became good, but a champion, and certainly worthy of Buffy's love. He ultimately earned it, and without question, Buffy loved him back. 🙂

Good stuff. Could be a s7 thing I'm missing here. Like I said haven't seen a s7 show twice yet besides the last ones.
But honestly just because a person can show enough change to become more like someone they admire, it doesn't make them equal. There's something to be said for being that way from the start. Usually what you learn from someone you want to be like is that you are not them. You need them around to give you a reason to be better. Buffy doesn't need Spike or Angel to be Buffy. Heck not even Riley.

But there's something I'm interested in knowing.

What did you think of the Spike that showed up in Angel s5?

 

[StarSlayer]

But honestly just because a person can show enough change to become more like someone they admire, it doesn't make them equal. There's something to be said for being that way from the start. Usually what you learn from someone you want to be like is that you are not them. You need them around to give you a reason to be better. Buffy doesn't need Spike or Angel to be Buffy. Heck not even Riley.

I somewhat agree, although I'm a little confused as to what you mean. I agree that Buffy doesn't ultimately need a man (Spike, Angel, Riley, whoever) in her life to be herself. She'll always be Buffy. However, I do think that having a significant other in her life can make her a better person. That's what relationships are about IMO. You find the person who gives you strength, supports you, and loves you for who you are. Once you find that person, you become a better version of yourself. That's why I will always love Spuffy. Spike becomes a better version of himself after falling in love with Buffy. He wants to change, for the better, because of her. And he does by finding redemption. There is nothing wrong with that IMO. And Buffy becomes a better version of herself after falling in love with Spike. She gets strength from Spike (as she said in "End of Days"), which allows her to keep fighting.

But there's something I'm interested in knowing.

What did you think of the Spike that showed up in Angel s5?

I like the Spike we see in AtS s5. IMO, he tries to become his own man, find his purpose, when he crosses over to AtS.

 

[the pack]

Want to make one thing perfectly clear from the start - I am not at all interested in getting into a Spike is the Lowest of the Low and the complete degradation of Buffy. But I am very much interested in your views on how Buffy has not been completely corrupted in her premeditated attempt killing of Faith. What makes her relationship with Spike a "dragging Buffy down that low to Spike's level" and why would having turned her into an attempted murderess of Faith not be a an equivalent treatment?

In your opinion is one action, the Faith-Buffy attempt to feed Faith to Angel not a degradation of the character?

I'm a little confused by the question. Equivalent treatment? From who? Joss? Or just the context of the Faith/Buffy relationship?

Completely corrupted? No. I don't claim to make the case that Buffy is perfect. Gosh knows Joss is quite fond of letting us know that she's not. But are we going to compare Buffys acts and deeds to Spikes? The demon who wanted to stake Dru to prove his love to Buffy? Do you really want to go there? Love makes us do crazy things! Which is why I'm sure Buffy did not love Spike. At least the way Spuffies would like to believe. I don't think she would have killed Faith to save Spike.

 

[kittenpoker]

Sorry for rambling so much...I just find that writing like this helps me sort out my thoughts better.

No, no, please, "ramble" on. 🙂

I really loved your assessment of both relationships!

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Boy, is this an intetesting thread. Regarding Amends: it is one of my favorite episodes of the show (it's teriffic, really well done) but not for the Bangel context. I think it's an interesting study in in different Angel and Buffy are. Angel is weak. Always has been. Buffy is strong. His willingness to die rather than fight is something I always hated him for. I hate how he hits her. I hate how much it hurts Buffy to see Angel so low. Despite all this, Buffy loves and forgives him. She is truly exceptional.

 

[dan k]

I think it's an interesting study in in different Angel and Buffy are. Angel is weak. Always has been. Buffy is strong. His willingness to die rather than fight is something I always hated him for. I hate how he hits her. I hate how much it hurts Buffy to see Angel so low. Despite all this, Buffy loves and forgives him. She is truly exceptional.

I'm going to come to Angel's defence here. Some people like Joan might point to the fact that he should resist the urge to take Buffy and continue to fight. However for me his decision to die has always come across as a selfless decision.

When you think about what he was having to deal with I can't imagine anyone being able to cope. This wasn't a situation he could excape or move on from. The First was constantly tormenting him.

He'd already tasted Buffy in the previous season meaning he had a longing for her that he struggled to keep intact without the First's involvement. As a vampire his natural nature is to kill. You combine that with the First driving him insain I think the guy deserves at least some sympathy.

 

[white avenger]

To me, the major difference between Bangel and Spuffy begins with each man's first view and initial impression of Buffy.

Angel first first view of Buffy was of a rather dense little girl who appeared to have nothing resembling a serious thought in her head. (I love the quote from the movie when Kristy Swanson says, "All I want is to graduate from High School, marry Christan Slater, and die!" That's how I always envision pre-Slayer Buffy) To enforce the image, he has Whistler whispering, "She's going to need a lot o' help, that Slayer." And, basically, that's what Angel sees and accepts as his mission from then on. He protects and tries to shield that helpless little girl.

Spike's first sight of Buffy is a totally different thing. He sees a powerful, dangerous opponent, and I have no doubt whatsoever that, from that first moment, he knew that he was looking at the most dangerous opponent he would ever face. His feelings for her changed over the next 6 years, moving from Mortal Enemy all the way to lover and closest friend, and while his feelings for her changed, he never forgot that this was a Slayer who would NEVER need anyone for protection.

To me, both Bangel and Spuffy are viable, valid, loving relationships. The difference is just this: Angel wants to protect and shield Buffy, and Spike wants to be the man she can always count on to cover her back.

 

[nmcil12]

I'm a little confused by the question. Equivalent treatment? From who? Joss? Or just the context of the Faith/Buffy relationship?

Completely corrupted? No. I don't claim to make the case that Buffy is perfect. Gosh knows Joss is quite fond of letting us know that she's not. But are we going to compare Buffys acts and deeds to Spikes? The demon who wanted to stake Dru to prove his love to Buffy? Do you really want to go there? Love makes us do crazy things! Which is why I'm sure Buffy did not love Spike. At least the way Spuffies would like to believe. I don't think she would have killed Faith to save Spike.

Mine perspective is one of morality and ethics - not having anything to do with who Buffy loves or her being contrasted to another character. Was Buffy morally and ethically right in going after Faith to feed her Slayer Blood to her boy friend?

 

[KellGreen]

I'm going to come to Angel's defence here. Some people like Joan might point to the fact that he should resist the urge to take Buffy and continue to fight. However for me his decision to die has always come across as a selfless decision.

When you think about what he was having to deal with I can't imagine anyone being able to cope. This wasn't a situation he could excape or move on from. The First was constantly tormenting him.

He'd already tasted Buffy in the previous season meaning he had a longing for her that he struggled to keep intact without the First's involvement. As a vampire his natural nature is to kill. You combine that with the First driving him insain I think the guy deserves at least some sympathy.

Yes, but nothing compared to what Spike goes through. He is driven thoroughly insane by the First, compounded by his newly acquired soul (and not yet having had sufficient time to adapt to the onslaught of guilt and remorse). Though, of course, comparing the two is like comparing "apples to oranges" as they say.

Ok...my ramblings on other stuff put out here:

Yes, everyone from Joss to SMG to James have all said that when Buffy told Spike, SHE DID MEAN IT! period.

Spike is not inherently "beneath Buffy" and she is not "dragged down to his level." We must all remember the man we see William was and the humanity of that man that remains within Spike, even without the presence of his soul. He is unique. His capacity for love as a soulless vampire is even beyond that of what we are shown of Liam's as a man. Spike is both a warrior and a lover. So is Buffy. Her life is fighting, but as the 1st slayer tells her, she is full of love. This is why I feel like they are so good together: they are equal parts lover/fighter. We see them regard each other with respect for the capable warrior they each are. When Spike is chipped, though, and cannot fight her, she starts really putting him down. Things change again, drastically, when she learns that he can fight her again (Smashed).

They both came out of their "relationship" better people. By the end of S7 (Chosen and after) Buffy is finally able to let down some of the walls she built up after what happened with her and Angel. Spike's unconditional love and acceptance of her allowed her to see herself through his eyes, not just hers. She has had major abandonment issues, along with the trauma of sending her first boyfriend to Hell. Spike has been searching for requited love since he was a mortal. Dru was not capable of providing that. Once he is ensouled, he is able to mesh the man and the demon. He becomes a champion who is worthy of requited love, which he then has from Buffy.

Worth is not something predetermined at birth; it is best determined by the choices we make and who we are inside. Buffy and Spike both make mistakes, but they are there for the other when they are at their lowest. I love how when one is weak, the other is there to hold them up, not drop them or fall down with them.

Also, on the "Buffy wouldn't kill Faith for Spike" thing...she sure looks like she wants to when she finds Faith flirting with in the basement in S7😛 Though that wouldn't be FOR him, i guess.

 

[dan k]

Yes, but nothing compared to what Spike goes through. He is driven thoroughly insane by the First, compounded by his newly acquired soul (and not yet having had sufficient time to adapt to the onslaught of guilt and remorse). Though, of course, comparing the two is like comparing "apples to oranges" as they say.

I agree. My post wasn't about comparing Bangel and Spuffy I was just trying to stick up for Angel. The criticism he receives in this instance I thought was slightly unfair.