The Cookie Dough Speech and Other Musings

[SiegePerilous02]

Just google : Joss Whedon Buffy napkin.

http://www.themarysue.com/joss-buffy/

http://static02.mediaite.com/themarysue/uploads/2014/07/LargeJoss.jpg

Hmm, looking at it, I'm not exactly sure this is anything pro-Bangel. Actually her "killing" him here may just be the opposite.

The weird hairstyle could also be more of a dig at a character like Edward Cullen, a "take that" to the Twilight craze of "woman-loves-vampire" fiction that BtVS unwittingly allowed to come into existence.

 

[Kairos]

After their breakup, Buffy and Angel never ask each other if they're still in love; the topic doesn't seem to need any discussion. They also don't suggest getting back together, until it's the last episode and everything needs some kind of resolution. But the odd part about doing it like that is that the issue was already resolved by virtue of the silence on it: they always knew they weren't getting back together because they couldn't.

In that light, the fact that Buffy brought up her lovelife with Angel at all is a hint that she's contemplating a change in their separation. That Angel asks "who" is a hint that he is too. When the conversation comes around to "haven't NOT chosen Angel", that in itself is a huge departure from their original decision that Buffy should spend her life with a human.

So, to me, "Sometimes is something" is actually a pretty big deal. Buffy's saying that she's tried a variety of relationships and they didn't work, and acknowledging that she needs to pay more attention to her development as an individual before she tries again. But she's also saying that she may someday be able to accept Angel as he is - remember, she doesn't know about the Shanshu - and that means making sacrifices which she was not previously willing to make.

There's got to be something there that convinces Buffy that such a life with Angel is a possibility on par with the other ones open to her, including children and growing old with a partner. Angel never asked her to make those sacrifices, and I think it means a lot to him that she brought it up anyway, and turned a sad inevitability into a reason for hope.

 

[Robb Stark]

I'm a little surprised there's so much disagreement about this, to be honest. I've always assumed that the meaning in that was fairly plain. That Buffy isn't ready for any sort of relationship, she has (and presumably will have for some time) bigger things on her plate at that time, but when she does allow herself to think about it, she thinks of Angel. I don't think there's real any other credible interpretation of calling Angel back.

THAT SAID, there are some very touching Spuffy moments in that episode as well, and I think the episode went out of its way to appeal to both sets of fan bases.

 

[white avenger]

Just google : Joss Whedon Buffy napkin.

http://www.themarysue.com/joss-buffy/

http://static02.mediaite.com/themarysue/uploads/2014/07/LargeJoss.jpg

Thank you! You may have provided me with my new screen saver.

---------- Post added at 12:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:28 PM ----------

I'm a little surprised there's so much disagreement about this, to be honest. I've always assumed that the meaning in that was fairly plain. That Buffy isn't ready for any sort of relationship, she has (and presumably will have for some time) bigger things on her plate at that time, but when she does allow herself to think about it, she thinks of Angel. I don't think there's real any other credible interpretation of calling Angel back.

THAT SAID, there are some very touching Spuffy moments in that episode as well, and I think the episode went out of its way to appeal to both sets of fan bases.

I always figured that the main reason for Angel showing up there in the last episodes of the last season of the series were to remind the fans, ALL of the fans, that Angel is still a valid part of Buffy's life, and that the possibilities of them being together in some future time aren't totally impossible, which doesn't contradict the fact that Buffy wasn't specific about actually "who" the cookie recipient might eventually be. Angel is still in the running, but that doesn't make it a one horse race.

On the other hand, if Angel hadn't shown up at all that season, we would have had the closeness between Buffy and Spike at the end, and her declaration that she did actually love him (open for interpretation, certainly, but no more than the cookie dough speech, and argued with equal fervor whenever it's brought up.) which could have left fans with the impression that Spike was her actual choice for the cookies, regardless of whether he believed her or not.

Just some more of that "speculation" stuff we were discussing earlier.

 

[ladydorotea]

On the other hand, if Angel hadn't shown up at all that season, we would have...

Well, but he did show up, didn't he? I guess that's the reason for endless interpretations and discussions over 'should have he showed up'. Which brings us back to Shudda, Wudda, Cudda. And Joss' 'transcend everything' was still spoken.

 

[white avenger]

Well, but he did show up, didn't he? I guess that's the reason for endless interpretations and discussions over 'should have he showed up'. Which brings us back to Shudda, Wudda, Cudda. And Joss' 'transcend everything' was still spoken.

I think that you've missed my point. Angel not only should have shown up, he absolutely HAD to show up as near to the end of the series as possible, so that his meeting with Buffy would be fresh on everybody's minds when Buffy told Spike that she loved him. There had to be no doubt that, even if she DID love Spike, she still loved Angel as well.

That's not "Shudda, Wudda, Cudda," that's "HADta," and I'm neither complaining about it nor criticizing Joss for writing it that way. It was right and essential that he be there, though I do think that the whole amulet thing was kind of deus ex machinery. Buffy, Willow, and the others had fought and bled all season, and then Ol' Btoodie pops in with the secret weapon at the last minute. Why couldn't he have just came to help, period? Willow's spell should have been unquestionably what saved the day.

 

[ladydorotea]

I think that you've missed my point. Angel not only should have shown up, he absolutely HAD to show up as near to the end of the series as possible, so that his meeting with Buffy would be fresh on everybody's minds when Buffy told Spike that she loved him. There had to be no doubt that, even if she DID love Spike, she still loved Angel as well.

Roll eyes. Spike going up in smoke at the end of the series was the whole point of his arc. It is known. He would never had gotten the line if not for that. Joss knew Spike was a goner since the end of S6, and the only reason he did not stay ghost in AtS was the executive pressure. As such, Spike getting the I love - no you don't thing was not really linked to Angel's appearance at all. That was a separate plot that had nothing to do with Spike's 'getting told'. Joss put Angel there so that the series ended with a glimpse of hope - and Buffy could have her radiant smile at the end.

 

[Kana]

I'm a little surprised there's so much disagreement about this, to be honest. I've always assumed that the meaning in that was fairly plain. That Buffy isn't ready for any sort of relationship, she has (and presumably will have for some time) bigger things on her plate at that time, but when she does allow herself to think about it, she thinks of Angel. I don't think there's real any other credible interpretation of calling Angel back.

THAT SAID, there are some very touching Spuffy moments in that episode as well, and I think the episode went out of its way to appeal to both sets of fan bases.

I partly agree. I do think she considers Angel in her future, my argument was that she wasn't making any kind of real commitment. For the whole point of mentioning the Cookie Dough analogy, is to say that she needs to figure out who she is before making that kind of commitment.

And yes, I do think the speech can appeal to both fan bases 🙂.